Scottish Independence

[JudgeDredd]

I realise there are very few people on here with an interest in the topic. However - I just wanted to have my say on the matter (politics is allowed here right?). I'm not posting it to stir...I just wanted to say my piece. For those interested then feel free to comment...I'm not going to argue with anyone or try and change anyone's mind or convince anyone...just my thoughts on Independence.

My general political stance is left of centre. It's a curse I've had to bear all my life. Having said that I've never had allegiance to any one party. I generally voted Labour (though I wasn't allowed to vote at all until 1990 as I was in the forces). The political parties in this country have both had great ideas. Unfortunately, they couldn't agree on the colour of shite and so we end up in a cycle of never-ending dismay at missed opportunities. I've watched this country boom and bust so many times it makes me cry a little inside!

Anyway - that's my historical stance.

In 1979 a very "infamous" political leader, Margaret Thatcher, took control of the UK with her party, the Conservatives. I think it's fair to say they were (are?) pretty far right of centre. I also think it's fair to say Britain was in a dire slump at the time.

Given the failure to take control of their own destiny in 1979, Scotland has again been given the chance to do so. I was only young then - but even then I remember it saddened me that Scotland didn't take the chance it had been offered.

This time the vote is for full independence. That's a fully independent Scotland with all that goes with that.

Scotland, historically, has always been more of a Social Democratic country. And this independence vote would allow them to become that country. There have been very few elections in the UK where the Scottish vote has swayed the government put in power and in fact often gets a government that the majority of the people of Scotland do not care for. Such is the political system.

Anyway - my thoughts are these...

My want for Independence for my country is not borne out of a dislike for the English - though that is being used for propaganda reasons.
My want for Independence for my country is not borne out of a dislike for being part of the UK.

I've lived in England since I was 16. I am now 46. I have lots and lots of good English pals. I made a lot in the forces and keep in touch with them through social media sites and meeting for reunions. They understand - unfortunately, the venom being spat out in the media is turning some peoples heads to the more negative aspects.

I was a proud member of Her Majesty's British Army for 7 years. I watched the United Kingdom hold a very successful Olympics event and the British athletes punch above their weight in the medals table. I watched Andy Murray win Wimbledon for Britain. Even though he was ripped apart by the media for a joking comment he made to Tim Henman about the English football team - saying he'd support anyone who played against England, a comment both English and Scottish used towards each other all the time. That same media praised him as "The Best of Britain" - he was finally accepted.

Anyway - I digress.

Scotland for me has always been full of very proud people. We are famous for our friendliness and open hearts. I want Scotland to have governments that carry that torch. And for me - the only way that will come about is through Independence. Taking control of their own government and looking out for their own people and - more than that - giving the people of Scotland a vote - something they do not currently have.

Would Independence be best for Scotland? I think so....I don't know, but I think so. At the very least they could kick the government out when they are being arses - something they don't have the clout to do at the moment.

I'm a very, very proud Scot. I have always been a proud Brit also - but Scotland needs to determine it's own future. It's sick to death of bouncing from one useless left to another useless right and back again. In fact the last Labour government left people wondering where the hell the party for the left had gone!

To all you English, Irish and Welsh out there - I love you all - but I love my country more and I think my country would be better served by a government they put in place.

By the way - I do not get to vote.

Just wanted to air my views. I love you all xx

[JudgeDredd]

One last thing - what I hope for - most of all - whether you vote Yes or No is that the Scottish electorate get off their arses and get to vote. The UK voting system has dampened peoples desire to change government - they've become disillusioned and I hope that changes for this referendum.

[undercovergeek]

i wouldnt feel so bad about it

except

when/if it all goes tits up youll come south of the border and say 'we're sorry, can we have some money please' your tax income does not cover your planned expenditure in any way whatsoever

if the iran navy turns up to blockage edinburgh - what are you going to use to unblock it?

you want BACK PAYMENTS on the north sea oil and gas?????????????????????????????? fine, can we have 300 years back payments on defending you and paying for you

ps - i love the Scots and Scotland - i wasnt even aware of nationalist animosity until i was up there and gave a guy in a highlands monsoon a lift to phone box (before mobiles) because his car had cut out in a flood, he made the call and i waited, he got back in to take him to his car and he said 'you didnt have to wait', i told him i didnt expect him to walk back in the weather, he just shrugged and said 'i thought all you english were wankers' and laughed

[Staggerwing]

What are the practical aspects of independence for Scotland? Does it's government function in a semiautonomous fashion now as regards to internal matters such as taxation and healthcare? Does it already have some kind of internal national police or investigative service such as the FBI or, ehem,  Scotland Yard?

[BanzaiCat]

I'm curious as to the economic situation. The company I work for is based in Glasgow but has a worldwide reach; I'd be concerned about economic impact/business taxation/that sort of thing.

Not that I wouldn't support you guys either way - you should determine your own destiny of course after having all the facts on the table. I just love my job and this company and don't want it going tits up for any reason. :)

[JudgeDredd]

What are the practical aspects of independence for Scotland? Does it's government function in a semiautonomous fashion now as regards to internal matters such as taxation and healthcare? Does it already have some kind of internal national police or investigative service such as the FBI or, ehem,  Scotland Yard?

It's been so long since I've really had much to do with Scotland in terms of understanding or knowing their policies. They have a separate judicial system. They have a separate education body. Those I know of.

They do not however have powers of taxation. In fact, one of the issues is that Scotland gets a "grant" given to it using what I believe is called the Barnett Formula. Scotland pays it's revenues to the UK and gets a grant back - that's it in a nutshell. One of the points being made is that the UK taxation process (and this might help you too Banzai_Cat) is an all for one thing...it's set nation wide...and that doesn't fit for the Scottish layout...and in fact, there are plenty of other UK residents who might even concede that it doesn't fit for parts of the country they live in either. Scotland needs to entice more businesses in and cannot do so because the tax they charge is the same across the board (why setup a company in Scotland when you can set one up in the South East and the tax is the same)?

Ironically - Scotland and the SNP wanted a two question referendum...Independence and Devo Max. Devo Max was to have more powers transferred to the Scottish Government. Cameron and his cronies refused - saying it was to be a one question referendum...Independence or not. If they would've allowed for Devo Max, I believe Scotland would still be part of the UK after 2014...but Cameron was too short sighted and stubborn to see that - and the likelihood is he could lose the union.

In order to entice international business, Scotland needs to have the powers to adjust the likes of Corporation Tax. The current Government (The SNP or Scottish National Party) have said if they get into power they would reduce Corporation Tax to entice other businesses to invest in Scotland. It's in no way guaranteed the SNP will get in power - the first elections in an Independent Scotland would follow in 2015 or 2016...I don't recall. Alot of people believe the SNP gained a majority vote in the Scottish elections last time around to push the referendum and will not vote SNP afterwards.

Regardless...that is exactly what the point is - choosing a government that you vote for - not being lumbered with one that has almost no representation in Scotland.

I am currently reading the White Paper now. Of course I understand it's propaganda. But they want the same things I always wanted - not just for Scotland but for the UK as a whole. unfortunately, with the current crop of idiots in Westminster - the kind of UK I would want isn't round the corner and indeed doesn't ever look likely to be arriving any time soon.

Undercovergeek - that's sad that you experienced that. I would like to think the guy was joking - but perhaps not. All I can say is wankers aren't restricted to any one nationality  ;D

Also - in terms of "it all goes tits up youll come south of the border and say 'we're sorry, can we have some money please'" - all I can say is that's exactly the path the Better Together campaign are taking - the negative one. I don't believe it will ever happen. No country has ever went independent only to go cap in hand to the country it broke away from...it really is a non issue.

As for wanting back payments for Oil and Gas - I haven't heard that one. It's certainly not in the White Paper (up to where I have read). They are asking that whilst Scotland takes a fair share of the National Debt that it also gets a fair share of the National Assets - which seems wholly fair.

There's ALOT of animosity about it. Alot of bad feeling. There really ought not to be and in my eyes there isn't. I love the UK but I love Scotland more and I think Scotland deserves to be allowed to vote for a government - and with the current political system in place, Scottish votes seldom sway any election. Unfortunately - with the media we have (I suspect both north and south of the border) that animosity will only grow.

Alot of people in the UK are totally fed up with the current government and would change it in a shot. There's just no other option really.

I want what is best for Scotland - not what is worst for the UK. There's a huge difference.

[undercovergeek]

The guy was definitely joking and we had a laugh for the rest of the journey - I just never knew that it was present - since then I've watched vids on you tube of the murray field crowd and man I would not like to get dropped in there with a geroges cross t shirt!

All the people I've spoken to about it here don't bear animosity so much as a parent with a teenager 'if you want to go, then go, there's the door' but you are not keeping the pound - no fkng way!!   

[LongBlade]

Years ago I met a girl from the UK (English IIRC).

She was quite firm in pointing out that the UK consisted of four different countries.

I never truly felt I grasped why she needed to place so much emphasis on that, but as a result I'm not entirely surprised to find there is a movement afoot to challenge the unity of the UK.

I don't have a dog in that fight and certainly cannot claim to have an educated thought on it beyond the above.

I will note that, as a general trend, it seems as though separatism is the historical trend these days. Especially after the break up of the USSR ethnic and religious separatism seems to be quite fashionable. In some cases the results have been good (Czech Republic and Slovakia) and in others not so good (Yugoslavia).

On balance these things seem to have been for the worse and not the better, but that may simply be due to human nature as opposed to the merit of the concept.

[JudgeDredd]

^ Good. (this was meant for UCG's post - LB slipped one in there!)

I agree - my wife is the same and has said much the same thing actually..."Just go and get on with it"...it's not quite as clear cut as that though. There's plenty (over 50% I believe in current polls) that don't want to. How do you think that statement sounds to those people? For me it's fine and I understand why people don't care - but there's a large chunk of Scotland who want to remain part of the UK - and all they hear is "If you want to go then go"...that doesn't exactly sound like a country with any love for the ones that want to remain part of the UK.

My mum, my eldest sister, my younger brother, his wife and my younger sister all want to remain part of the UK.

Well - the pound - it's a tradeable commodity - can be bought and sold. The idea is I believe something like 40% of Englands business is dealt with north of the border and as such it would be foolish of the UK government to force price increases on companies in England by "refusing" Scotland the use of the pound (which is debatable whether it can be done or not). And as has been stated - it's as much Scotland's pound as it is Englands. Whilst the UK government has been saying it's not a foregone conclusion that Scotland would keep the pound, they have refused to say Scotland would not be "allowed to keep" the pound - because they know it's in their interests and the interests of the UK to keep the currency of your closest trading partners the same.

However - I see your point and I think it was a bad move for the Independence drive not to push for their own currency or at least mention it as a backup plan. Plenty of currencies have been floated over the years and survived.

I'm not here to argue whether Scotland would keep the pound or not. That decision will be made between those in power north and south of the border.

I hope there's a break, I hope it's clean and I hope it's peaceful (as in the rhetoric ends) - but most of all - I hope it's beneficial to all.

[LongBlade]

However - I see your point and I think it was a bad move for the Independence drive not to push for their own currency or at least mention it as a backup plan. Plenty of currencies have been floated over the years and survived.

If you don't have your own currency your economy's fate will be less in control of your leaders. In all likelihood Scotland will continue to be highly dependent on England due to historic trade ties, but it you'll be even more dependent if you don't have your own currency: look at how the Euro is affecting different countries in the EU.

[bayonetbrant]

As a practical matter, I wonder how existing treaty obligations might carry over from the UK.  Would Scotland automatically be a NATO member, or would they need to sign their way into the alliance?  Would they even want to?  How to go about separating the military?  Money?  A new Scottish pound?  Would Liz II still be the titular head of state (like Australia) or would you guys dig up some ancestor of Bonnie Prince Charlie to install as a figurehead?

Personally, I'm less concerned with the desire to do it - I think if you want to, you should, and there should be a peaceful mechanism to do so - than I am with the mechanics of how it would happen if it did.  Those sorts of processes fascinate me.

[LongBlade]

^ Good. (this was meant for UCG's post - LB slipped one in there!)

[undercovergeek]

Is there a plan for the billions of pounds the uk tax payer put into save the royal bank of scotland - would you buy that debt out?

[undercovergeek]

And would you now be considered an immigrant worker? Would that effect the tax you pay?

[JudgeDredd]

I don't have the answers for everything. Unfortunately my knowledge of it is only in what I read and hear - and that changes dramatically between both sides.

Regarding RBS - I have no idea.
NATO - Not automatic - they plan to request entry into NATO as a non nuclear party.
Queen Elizabeth would apparently still be Head of State as she is for the likes of Australia
Military - would come under splitting assets and debt
Keeping the pound - I agree LB...I do believe it would give them "less control"