Faux pas at The Wargamer?

[ComradeP]

I think one of the complicating factors here is the fact that for tangible goods, there is a zero-sum quality to the goods in question.  In JH's example of the car that's not being driven, if you take the car, I no longer have it.  People tend to see that as more "wrong" than making a copy of a game that does not take away the copy I already have.

Personally, I believe that something not being physically "there" can really cloud your moral and ethical senses in such a way that you'd do things you normally won't. I'm no psychologist, but I'd bet that for the average human brain, if someone's money is just a number on a screen, theft or fraud becomes a lot easier. To me, this feeling explains a lot of the banking crisis. People deal with things that are not physical objects which may or may not be beyond their understanding, and are juggling numbers around without any direct relation to something in the real world. I experience part of the same sensation when playing wargames, where I care less if an on-screen message says I have lost "1000 men" than if I see some pixelated guy get shot down due to my actions in a tactical (war)game.

Similarly, people find it more difficult to apply their usual moral and ethical standards to electronic theft than to physical theft.

[mirth]

In the case of "abandonware", ethical standards are likely further clouded by the facts that the product is usually at least a decade old, is no longer being sold at retail and the copyright holder is not defending the copyright. So you have the combination of "it's an old game and not really worth anything, I can't get it anywhere else and it's unlikely I will ever get caught and punished".

[MikeGER]

it all boils down to the question:
what kind of personal morale failure (crime) i am willing to commit and still be able to have a good sleep at night and can stand seeing my face in the mirror while shaving.

i think most people are inhibited by the fact if another single living individual is made to suffer by their unmoral action(s) ...so the treasurehold on a copy of 'abandonware' might be quite low.
   

[Keunert]

no JH, it was only an excellent example to further proof my case, not the closet.

[Jarhead0331]

no JH, it was only an excellent example to further proof my case, not the closet.

Its ok, bro. With the repeal of DADT, you have my full support.

[Keunert]

thanks man. now with you backing me, i will think about it again

[Swatter]

You can call me a criminal or a thief if it makes you feel better. You can argue all IP violations are equal, I disagree. You can call me more names if you wish, but insults generally don't change my opinion. I have broken many laws in my life, and so has everyone else reading these words. Are we all thieves and criminals? If some of you were to fall off your high horses, you might suffer significant injuries.

According to quantum theory, a cow can jump from the earth to the moon in one leap. The probability of that happening, though, is so small that the universe would cease to exist before it would be likely to occur.

I see this abandonware debate the same way. In theory, downloading an abandonware game could hurt someone, but the chance is so small that the universe would end before real harm could be done.

Supporting and upholding the law, and making a personal decision not to break it is considered being on a "high horse" in your book? Interesting.  How have you been called names or personally insulted anywhere in this thread? The only person personally insulted here is me, with your ignorant jab at lawyers.

Taking something that does not belong to you is a crime. Committing this crime makes you a thief. It is not name calling, it is a fact of life. If you have made a personal decision that committing a criminal act is ok, that is your decision and it says a lot about you. But do not criticize others for doing the legally and ethically correct thing, even if doing so, "makes you feel better."

So you never make personal decisions to break any law? If you thought my "lawyers need jobs too" was an insult, you have exceptionally thin skin. You are also exceptionally hostile with people you disagree with. You strip any joy of discussing an issue.

Not only do you and all of us intentionally break laws, we also break laws unintentionally. You are on your high horse by pretending that you are somehow a more lawful citizen than I. You say that committing criminal acts says something about me, as if the crimes you have committed don't, according to your standard, say something about you. You are no better person than I.

Any act I choose to commit, I am willing to accept the consequences. I would not knowingly harm a person or even a business entity. I don't think many business entities would do me the same courtesy. I simply don't see the real harm. Maybe that is a fault in me. I personally think the ability to see beyond black and white distinctions is a strength, but you are free to disagree.

[mirth]

[Keunert]

arguing with a lawyer is like boxing with a boxer.

^ you guys can quote this, but remember the ip of this is mine.

[ComradeP]

OK, I'm beginning to see some merit in moving the thread to R&P if it can't be discussed without people feeling someone's ruffling their feathers, even though it would be a pity to move it.

[mirth]

First flame war of 2014. Took longer than I thought.

Any thread with The Wargamer in the title should probably be sent to the dungeon to begin with.

[ComradeP]

Yeah, I had expected some punches aimed at the Wargamer in the first few posts, but the discussion managed to stay on topic.

[GDS_Starfury]

Why punch a ineffectual ghost.

[Jarhead0331]

I have said what I have to say on the issue and all of the points that have been made so far. Swatter wants to make this about me because his argument, quite simply, sucks. You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I provide a lot of legal information around here. If some people want to ignore the free education and accuse me of being hostile instead, so be it.

However, deep down in Swatter's heart, I know he truly appreciates me. When he is able to pick up some chick in a bar one night by impressing her with his knowledge of IP law, it will be imaginary high-fives all around.

[Greybriar]

Sarinee Achavanuntakul once had an abandonware site called the Home of the Underdogs. In its day it was probably the largest abandonware site on the internet. Yet she knew abandonware was illegal and stated in the Home of the Underdogs FAQ under the heading of But isn't abandonware illegal?:

Unfortunately, yes. Despite the fact that publishers no longer derive revenues from these games since they have stopped selling them (and any revenues from retailers that still sell them were gained a long time ago, at the time of sales), it is illegal to distribute them so long as copyright holders have not released them into the public domain, and 95 years after the games' release have not elapsed. For more in-depth information on this issue, We recommend the following articles and websites:

    Abandonware in a Nutshell: Why Nobody Ever Wins
    Flashbacks for Free: The Skinny on Abandonware [I couldn't get this link to work.]
    Warez, Abandonware, and the SIIA
    Anti-Piracy Information at the IDSA [I couldn't get this link to work.]
    The World Intellectual Property Organization [I couldn't get this link to work.]

Despite the illegal status of abandonware, we believe that we are offering a valuable service to the gaming community: classic game collectors have a chance to retrieve games that have otherwise been lost or rendered defective with the passage of time. As our Disclaimer printed on every page makes clear, we will gladly remove download links to any game that is either 1) still being sold by the publisher, or 2) at the request of the publishers themselves. Encouraging publishers to continue publishing great classics of yore has always been this site's foremost goals, and we will gladly link to the publisher's order or download site without hesitation should they make their products available again, whether commercially or as freeware.

That said, we are continually seeking permission from copyright holders to distribute their games on this site. If you are a copyright holder and would like to grant us permission (or request that your games be taken off-line, as the case may be), please contact us. If you want to voice support for abandonware, check out the following petition sites:

    The AbandonWare Petition [Link does not lead to the proper location.]
    the International Campaign of Abandonware Supporters (ICAS) [Link does not work.]

If anyone is interested in knowing what the non-working links once led to, they might try using the Wayback Machine.

Like it or not, abandonware IS illegal.