Interesting Blog on Prices of "Grail Games"

[ArizonaTank]

Having recently looked for a copy of DAK2 and decided it was out of my price range, I often shake my head at the prices of some games.  But I have to agree with the author of the Games on Tables blogger in one of his more recent posts:

http://gamesontables.com/2014/01/why-scarcity-is-good-for-boardgaming/

[Nefaro]

Nahh.. I disagree with the general take on things.

His example is a perfect one to use:

If FFG runs 5,000 copies of a game upon initial printing and only manages to sell 3,000 of those games to distributors it's far less desirable than printing and selling 3,000.

He's saying that companies should only print what they can sell right out of the gate on release day.  Absolutely ridiculous marketing.  There will be a sizable increase in demand after any title is released and this guy is saying that it's better for publishers to just let the aftermarket sales take those sales away from them with inflated prices.  In that case, the publisher gets nothing. 

I think this author is off his rocker or has some dog in the fight if he thinks this is a good sale strategy for a publisher.  The more copies they make, the more they sell - not someone else. 

Using FFG as an example of a game publisher who he thinks is 'doing it wrong' is just as ridiculous.  Fantasy Flight has obviously been doing quite well with their marketing strategy of reprints.  They're still managing to sell out of many and the second-hand market continues on.   I call BS.  ::)

[Arctic Blast]

Just printing more copies doesn't magically guarantee successfully selling them all, either. If it did, companies like Z-Man and Valley wouldn't constantly have piles of unsold copies of games popping up on clearance sites like Tanga. Excess production of any physical product can be an absolute killer. You're out the costs of production, and dumping off the remainder at a clearance rate isn't going to come close to making up that cost. Plus, stores and distributors can send back unsold copies after a certain period, and you pay the costs of them shipping it back. And now you get to store all of it.

Should companies intentionally lowball production? Of course not. But pumping out 10,000 copies of everything isn't an answer either, unless the question is "How can we drive ourselves out of business the fastest?"

[Nefaro]

Just printing more copies doesn't magically guarantee successfully selling them all, either. If it did, companies like Z-Man and Valley wouldn't constantly have piles of unsold copies of games popping up on clearance sites like Tanga. Excess production of any physical product can be an absolute killer. You're out the costs of production, and dumping off the remainder at a clearance rate isn't going to come close to making up that cost. Plus, stores and distributors can send back unsold copies after a certain period, and you pay the costs of them shipping it back. And now you get to store all of it.

Should companies intentionally lowball production? Of course not. But pumping out 10,000 copies of everything isn't an answer either, unless the question is "How can we drive ourselves out of business the fastest?"

The subject is so-called "Grail Games" which still have such a demand that they are drawing secondary sales worth multiple times what the originals cost.  Specifically regarding the a publisher reprinting and selling some more. 

They don't need to go nuts on each run, but if they want to make money from all the excessive demand then they had better reprint and get those extra sales when demand is so high.  Otherwise they get nothing extra - the resellers do.  There is no sense in letting such a situation continue for them, so I have no idea what the article's author was thinking when he started praising it as good business for such companies.  Maybe in that they can gauge when to reprint, perhaps, but he didn't say that.

[Arctic Blast]

Just printing more copies doesn't magically guarantee successfully selling them all, either. If it did, companies like Z-Man and Valley wouldn't constantly have piles of unsold copies of games popping up on clearance sites like Tanga. Excess production of any physical product can be an absolute killer. You're out the costs of production, and dumping off the remainder at a clearance rate isn't going to come close to making up that cost. Plus, stores and distributors can send back unsold copies after a certain period, and you pay the costs of them shipping it back. And now you get to store all of it.

Should companies intentionally lowball production? Of course not. But pumping out 10,000 copies of everything isn't an answer either, unless the question is "How can we drive ourselves out of business the fastest?"

The subject is so-called "Grail Games" which still have such a demand that they are drawing secondary sales worth multiple times what the originals cost.  Specifically regarding the a publisher reprinting and selling some more. 

They don't need to go nuts on each run, but if they want to make money from all the excessive demand then they had better reprint and get those extra sales when demand is so high.  Otherwise they get nothing extra - the resellers do.  There is no sense in letting such a situation continue for them, so I have no idea what the article's author was thinking when he started praising it as good business for such companies.  Maybe in that they can gauge when to reprint, perhaps, but he didn't say that.

But not every game with people crowing for a reprint actually sells once the reprint shows up. Dungeonquest is a good example of this. Everything I've read indicates it didn't sell well at all, and they ended up dumping the remainder of their stock. Sure, there are a few people still clamoring for it, but a few people doesn't mean that a print run of several thousand copies is worth the cost.

Will the people asking for a new printing of a game actually buy it? Who knows. That's why it's a big gamble. A few secondary sales at multiple times the purchase price doesn't mean that doing another print run of something will end in success. A few people are willing to pony up big bucks. That's great. That doesn't mean there's enough interest in the market to make a reprint viable, especially since the ones who were the most interested, those who just spent stupid money for a second hand copy, probably aren't interested in a new version. Since most game companies are doing print runs in the thousands of copies, reprints remain a gamble.

[Nefaro]

Last I checked, Dungeonquest had sold out.   It was a bitch to find one back in October or thereabouts and it definitely cost more than it originally did.  I dunno if that's a good example unless they just finished a new reprinting it in the last month or two and then it would be too early to tell.

Any new production of a company's product is a gamble.  But the articles author was flatly stating that it's in companies' best interests to only do one print run and that's it.  As if any further demand should just be shovelled off to the secondary market, possible future sales be damned.  That's preposterous. 

A fine example of a recently announced reprinting is for The Hunters which has already sold out about a month after it's initial release quantities being distributed.  Should they not reprint at all, despite there being some demand for more?  Ultimately that's a company call to be made but it's certainly not a smart move to completely rule out such an option when there's a possible profit from creating more.

[Ubercat]

I spoke with one of the principals of MMP at WBC last summer and he told me that reprints just don't pay off very well, even when old copies of a game are going for hundreds of bucks on Ebay. There is demand, but not enough to justify printing 1000's or 100's of more copies.

[Bison]

I like the P500 system for reprinting.  It's good business for the developers and fans alike IMO.

[Nefaro]

I like the P500 system for reprinting.  It's good business for the developers and fans alike IMO.

Yes it is.

Having some succeed also goes to show that they shouldn't just poo-poo the idea out of principle.

I spoke with one of the principals of MMP at WBC last summer and he told me that reprints just don't pay off very well, even when old copies of a game are going for hundreds of bucks on Ebay. There is demand, but not enough to justify printing 1000's or 100's of more copies.

I'm not familiar with MadMinute's stuff.  I recall perusing their catalog a couple times before but nothing grabbed me.  Aren't they rather niche even for tabletop gaming?  You still need a sizable demand to pull of reprints, I'm sure.

[Ubercat]

I like the P500 system for reprinting.  It's good business for the developers and fans alike IMO.

Yes it is.

Having some succeed also goes to show that they shouldn't just poo-poo the idea out of principle.

I spoke with one of the principals of MMP at WBC last summer and he told me that reprints just don't pay off very well, even when old copies of a game are going for hundreds of bucks on Ebay. There is demand, but not enough to justify printing 1000's or 100's of more copies.

I'm not familiar with MadMinute's stuff.  I recall perusing their catalog a couple times before but nothing grabbed me.  Aren't they rather niche even for tabletop gaming?  You still need a sizable demand to pull of reprints, I'm sure.

MMP is Multiman Publishing, the guys doing ASL these days. Isn't Mad Minute the company that Norb Timpko was part of before he took everything from his cancer stricken partner?

[Bison]

I like the P500 system for reprinting.  It's good business for the developers and fans alike IMO.

Yes it is.

Having some succeed also goes to show that they shouldn't just poo-poo the idea out of principle.

I spoke with one of the principals of MMP at WBC last summer and he told me that reprints just don't pay off very well, even when old copies of a game are going for hundreds of bucks on Ebay. There is demand, but not enough to justify printing 1000's or 100's of more copies.

I'm not familiar with MadMinute's stuff.  I recall perusing their catalog a couple times before but nothing grabbed me.  Aren't they rather niche even for tabletop gaming?  You still need a sizable demand to pull of reprints, I'm sure.

MMP is Multiman Publishing, the guys doing ASL these days. Isn't Mad Minute the company that Norb Timpko was part of before he took everything from his cancer stricken partner?

Yes.  This is correct.

[Arctic Blast]

Last I checked, Dungeonquest had sold out.   It was a bitch to find one back in October or thereabouts and it definitely cost more than it originally did.  I dunno if that's a good example unless they just finished a new reprinting it in the last month or two and then it would be too early to tell.

Any new production of a company's product is a gamble.  But the articles author was flatly stating that it's in companies' best interests to only do one print run and that's it.  As if any further demand should just be shovelled off to the secondary market, possible future sales be damned.  That's preposterous. 

A fine example of a recently announced reprinting is for The Hunters which has already sold out about a month after it's initial release quantities being distributed.  Should they not reprint at all, despite there being some demand for more?  Ultimately that's a company call to be made but it's certainly not a smart move to completely rule out such an option when there's a possible profit from creating more.

DQ just recently sold out, but that's after at least a year of being discounted to dump leftover stock. It was a game that people kept talking about wanting a reprint of, but then it appeared and just stagnated. Sometimes it is in the best interests of a company to do one run and stop. If it sold like hotcakes and there are already pre-orders for a new run, sure. Get another run cranked out as soon as possible. But if it took forever to sell through, why in the world would they reprint it? Of course The Hunters should get another run...stores are already getting pre-orders for one. That sort of sales assurance pretty much guarantees that a reprint will have some level of success.

[Nefaro]

Last I checked, Dungeonquest had sold out.   It was a bitch to find one back in October or thereabouts and it definitely cost more than it originally did.  I dunno if that's a good example unless they just finished a new reprinting it in the last month or two and then it would be too early to tell.

Any new production of a company's product is a gamble.  But the articles author was flatly stating that it's in companies' best interests to only do one print run and that's it.  As if any further demand should just be shovelled off to the secondary market, possible future sales be damned.  That's preposterous. 

A fine example of a recently announced reprinting is for The Hunters which has already sold out about a month after it's initial release quantities being distributed.  Should they not reprint at all, despite there being some demand for more?  Ultimately that's a company call to be made but it's certainly not a smart move to completely rule out such an option when there's a possible profit from creating more.

DQ just recently sold out, but that's after at least a year of being discounted to dump leftover stock. It was a game that people kept talking about wanting a reprint of, but then it appeared and just stagnated. Sometimes it is in the best interests of a company to do one run and stop. If it sold like hotcakes and there are already pre-orders for a new run, sure. Get another run cranked out as soon as possible. But if it took forever to sell through, why in the world would they reprint it? Of course The Hunters should get another run...stores are already getting pre-orders for one. That sort of sales assurance pretty much guarantees that a reprint will have some level of success.

Indeed.

But the author was attempting to make the point that companies shouldn't reprint popular games, it being in their best interest.  Which is just plain wrong.  I think most of you would agree.

There's a big difference between reprinting some hex & counter run-of-the-mill wargame with a pretty small following to something like FFG reprinting Arkham Horror.   What I gathered from the article is that the author was making a flat blanket statement saying it's in their best interest to not do it at all.  Surely you guys don't agree with that?

[ArizonaTank]

I just have to think of the demise of AH.  They basically printed tons of copies of everything, and spammed the market with both great and not so great games.  I don't know for certain, but I have to believe that all of that extra unsold stock, sitting around costing them money, was part of their downfall.  To be fair to AH, they didn't have the "market intel" that current publishers have with the Internet, but still I bet they over-reached.  I remember hearing the MMP guy on the Two Half-Squads Podcast talk about how along with the ASL license, they inherited from AH many, many unsold copies of several modules.  I think he said it took them years to sell out old AH stock of "Yanks".  Funny because "Yanks" now routinely sells on ebay for $150.

I agree that just because a copy of DAK2 is listed on ebay for $300, doesn't mean it would translate into 1000s of sales for MMP in a reprint.  Although personally...I would love for them to reprint it.

[Arctic Blast]

Indeed.

But the author was attempting to make the point that companies shouldn't reprint popular games, it being in their best interest.  Which is just plain wrong.  I think most of you would agree.

There's a big difference between reprinting some hex & counter run-of-the-mill wargame with a pretty small following to something like FFG reprinting Arkham Horror.   What I gathered from the article is that the author was making a flat blanket statement saying it's in their best interest to not do it at all.  Surely you guys don't agree with that?

If that is indeed what he's saying, that nothing should ever be reprinted, then of course I disagree. I read it more as him saying that the opposite of that, constantly keeping the market flooded with product, isn't a great idea either. You need to stay in that middle ground, and that's difficult to pull off at times.