The US and your gun laws are always news. No more so when a tragic incident occurs.
This time, it was a 9 year old girl who shot her instructor - by accident I might add - when the gun was seemingly switched to automatic apparently accidentally.
I know about the right to bear arms. I've heard many reasons why people say it works. I can understand those arguments also.
But when I hear stories involving kids it just breaks my heart.
This wee girl, who is still a kid, has to face the rest of her life knowing what happened, seeing it likely every day and every night.
Anyway - no flame war - I just wanted to express how sad it is (especially sad to me) that children's innocence is being eroded everyday (not just by gun laws in the US by the way)...just in general.
Anyway - my thoughts are with the instructors family and for the wee girl for the rest of her life.
indeed :-\
i saw a video in our news, which split second before it happend,
IMHO the instructor stood in the wrong position?
(the shooter is right handed so the instructor has to be on the right side slightly behind the trainee)
also personally even if its inside the law at that place i would refuse to teach such a young and especially 'small' (physical arm and hand strength) customer with that Mini UZI weapon. Should her dad or uncle take the risks involved...
if its all about unleash a shot from a full auto capable weapon ...let her pull the trigger on a MG42 mounted on a tripod
The instructor here is 100% at fault. He made various mistakes that resulted in this very tragic accident.
Of course, the media, through their ignorance, will capitalize on this and use it as just another excuse to argue that guns are evil. Their lack of understanding and technical knowledge is astounding and I have already seen reporters discussing the incident with big pictures of evil military style assault weapons plastered onto the background screens. Excuse me, what does an AR15 have anything to do with this? Clearly, they are trying to stoke the fears of sandy hook.
God damn it, they disgust me...but I digress. Anyway, much Sympathy to the young lady, her family, the instructor and his family. For the record, if it was my daughter, she would not have been shooting that gun.
ah, good - thats what i wanted to ask you
does it make any sense at all to have a 9 year old on the range?
Quote from: undercovergeek on August 28, 2014, 02:34:49 AMdoes it make any sense at all to have a 9 year old on the range?
Yes, with an appropriate weapon.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 28, 2014, 05:12:29 AM
Quote from: undercovergeek on August 28, 2014, 02:34:49 AMdoes it make any sense at all to have a 9 year old on the range?
Yes, with an appropriate weapon.
to practice for all those armed combat situations she'll come across at 9?
To learn how to properly behave on a range and an appreciation for how to treat weapons and the people around them
My son's first trip to the range was right after he turned 10. It was a shooting sports day sponsored by Cub Scouts. They had 3 different things they did you there: archery, air rifles w/ pellets, and small-caliber rifles. His group ran out of time before they got to the "real" rifles.
I also know a lot of friends who grew up hunting with parents and were safely carrying and firing live weapons at 7 and 8 years old
Agreed. Proper gun safety is a good thing to teach young people especially if you have guns in the house.
But have a 9 yr old girl shooting an automatic weapon seems a bit much. Rifles, sure, hand guns maybe if their small calibre, uzi's.... Maybe not.
Heard the story yesterday, but my question is, what is an automatic weapon doing on a range that is not either military or police controlled? I recall something about civilians not having automatic weapons, but maybe the rules have changed and I'm just getting too old to remember. Tragic event all the way around. And the backlash should be a focus on safe use not that is was a gun incident. I agree.
The news report's video had several shots of the outside of the gun range; they had a sign that proclaimed "SHOOT A MACHINE GUN" with "blam pow boom blam blam" or words to that effect coming out to the sides of that proclamation. Clearly, that was a draw for the range, and the report further said they'd been in business for 12 years. Not sure if they'd been allowing people to shoot automatic weapons for that time, but it was obviously something they did to draw people in. Apparently they'd never had an issue before this.
That said, I'm in agreement that there's no way a 9-year-old should be handling such a powerful weapon. I don't know if she'd handled weapons before or not, but I'd guess probably not as I think her and her family were on vacation and saw the place they probably thought, "Oh how cool, 'blam blam pow,' let's shoot a machine gun! Hey, let's let our little girl do it!"
The news doesn't report the news anymore. They do what they can to keep the attention of weak minds long enough for them to see their advertiser's commercials. And the media has never been a friend of either guns or the 2nd Amendment. I'm not a gun owner myself, but I've been to the range with friends before, and I enjoy the experience.
Quote from: Barthheart on August 28, 2014, 05:27:45 AMBut have a 9 yr old girl shooting an automatic weapon seems a bit much. Rifles, sure, hand guns maybe if their small calibre, uzi's.... Maybe not.
That's my opinions on it, as well.
You know what....in the UK, they have been advertising, rather strongly and for some time now, push up bras to kids.
This might sound quirky (but I'm a Brit and using that as my defence) but I'm as against kids wearing push up bras as I am them shooting weapons and purely on the basis that they're kids.
Let them be kids and grow up later.
Here's the link (http://online.wsj.com/articles/accidental-fatal-shooting-of-gun-instructor-by-girl-sparks-new-debate-1409189384) to The Wall Street Journal article about the accident.
Tragic.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 28, 2014, 07:11:52 AM
You know what....in the UK, they have been advertising, rather strongly and for some time now, push up bras to kids.
This might sound quirky (but I'm a Brit and using that as my defence) but I'm as against kids wearing push up bras as I am them shooting weapons and purely on the basis that they're kids.
Let them be kids and grow up later.
this is where im standing too but i can see its a us/uk thing
I wonder if there is a case for charging the parents with reckless endangerment. Someone should get punished for this tragedy. I feel for the family of the instructor but I also feel for the young lady. What a thing to be exposed to at such a young age.
I think the person mainly at fault here is the instructor.... and he has been punished for his lack of judgement. Unfortunately everyone else involved is also being punished.... :(
Likely therapy for the rest of her life. She shot the guy in the head and point blank range! You're not going to forget that in a hurry.
I don't know what the answer is - I really don't. You've got your laws and hell will freeze over before guns are removed from the citizens of the US, that much is clear and you have your reasons for that.
But it just breaks my heart when tragic events involve kids.
They should be so innocent and it should be our job to protect them and their innocence from the big bad world until they are of an age when they can take the world on - and we all could at various ages. That might be the "perfect world" and yeah, I know it doesn't exist. But we should try to prolong their child hood for as long as possible.
I definitely think if you've got kids and you've got guns then the parents are absolutely bound to teach the child about the weapons and the respect of those...but I just don't think they should be exposed to the real thing. It is of course one of many billions of opinions...all of which will differ to a certain degree.
And don't anyone think I'm being judgmental. I'm not. I'm not calling for a ban on weapons. I'm not on about disarming US citizens...I just hate when these things involve kids of all things.
It's just a pure shame. God knows how that wee girl is going to turn out. :'(
And no - I'm not a hippie. I'm just a dad with two daughters who is imagining right now the state of my daughter if she was the one firing the Uzi.
I dont see a problem with shooting at 8. Having said that giving a kid an Uzi is pretty stupid.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 28, 2014, 09:35:00 AM
I dont see a problem with shooting at 8. Having said that giving a kid an Uzi is pretty stupid.
Except for the fact, maybe, that you are giving an 8 year old child an object that can and will kill?
As I said - I guess it comes down to different upbringings. If you are brought up around them and with them then the harm, perhaps, doesn't seem to be there.
.22 in cub scouts used to be normal. I even remember archery in grade school.
crazyness!
A detailed discussion of this can be found at:
http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2014/08/27/kids_and_guns_lessons_from_arizona.html
The discussion is accurate.
In the USA automatic weapons are tightly controlled. This was a "legal" though stupid use. There are places where you can go and "fire an automatic weapon." There are several very popular places in Las Vegas for tourists.
Kids (say 8 and older) who are mature are taught to shoot in the USA. I was 8 when I was taught to shoot a single-shot, low caliber rifle. This is not unusual in our country. I also shot in either cub scouts or webelos - I know it was before I was in Boy Scouts.
All that being said, letting a 9 year old fire an automatic weapon is stupid. Letting anyone fire an automatic weapon without first firing a single shot or semi-auto is also dumb. As Jarhead said, the instructor also did not follow proper range procedure. I feel sorry for the girl, her family, the instructor, and his family.
I would be very, very cautious if I fired an automatic weapon - and I've fired almost every sort of long gun short of a 50cal Barrett that is out there.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 28, 2014, 09:46:16 AM
.22 in cub scouts used to be normal. I even remember archery in grade school.
crazyness!
Well you might think that's crazy (I get your sarcasm) but I don't think I would ever put together archery and air rifling with 9mm, 5.56mm, 7.62mm or 0.5 cal.
Don't get me wrong...shooting is a shit load of fun. I just don't think kids should be around guns. That's my personal opinion and it could be totally turned 360 if I lived in your country...you never know.
Again - it's more to do with them being kids than the dangers. Instructed well and sensibly, I'm sure kids can be very responsible and safe with a gun. But as a device to maim or kill, defend or whatever, I'd rather kids weren't exposed to such a grown up activity.
In the 80's I remember debates going on about arming the police. I was dreading it - because I saw it as an escalation - and I was glad it never went further. They are armed on occasions now - but at high risk times and places. Generally, your average "bobby" is armed with a truncheon (or whatever the modern equivalent is), pepper spray or CS gas and a tazer. I'm very glad it's that way. I know too many numpties in the UK whom I wouldn't trust with a pair of plastic scissors never mind a gun.
By the way the phrase Bobby (referring to a British policemen) is what they were nicknamed after their founder, Robert Peel. They were originally called Peelers I believe.
I'll leave it on that light hearted note. I'd rather this didn't escalate into the "disarming of the US" debate which often ends up in the mire.
Quote from: airboy on August 28, 2014, 09:56:01 AM
A detailed discussion of this can be found at:
http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2014/08/27/kids_and_guns_lessons_from_arizona.html
The discussion is accurate.
In the USA automatic weapons are tightly controlled. This was a "legal" though stupid use. There are places where you can go and "fire an automatic weapon." There are several very popular places in Las Vegas for tourists.
Kids (say 8 and older) who are mature are taught to shoot in the USA. I was 8 when I was taught to shoot a single-shot, low caliber rifle. This is not unusual in our country. I also shot in either cub scouts or webelos - I know it was before I was in Boy Scouts.
All that being said, letting a 9 year old fire an automatic weapon is stupid. Letting anyone fire an automatic weapon without first firing a single shot or semi-auto is also dumb. As Jarhead said, the instructor also did not follow proper range procedure. I feel sorry for the girl, her family, the instructor, and his family.
I would be very, very cautious if I fired an automatic weapon - and I've fired almost every sort of long gun short of a 50cal Barrett that is out there.
so theres no legal minimum age at which kids can handle a gun?
im shocked
Legally, I'm not aware of any restrictions, though I'm certain there are laws. I know of some people that start teaching kids about guns as young as 5, but they're not huge or automatic weapons, nor are they not without supervision at any time. Usually, in such cases, the family are hunters, and they want to expose kids to gun safety at a very early age. All the kids in such families I've known always grew up with a very healthy respect for guns.
The problem with 'gun regulation' and the hysteria the news is trying to generate - and keep in mind, I speak as someone that does not own a gun - is that such regulation will only hamper the law-abiding citizens, the ones that are responsible and lock up their weapons and know to not take any kind of risk at any time. The ones that do not act responsibly...well, accidents happen.
The bad elements of society, well...they're not going to be affected by added regulations.
However, making it a law so that kids that young cannot handle automatic weapons, or these ranges making it a policy that, say, you have to be at least 16 or 18 or whatever to do so, that makes much more sense.
Quote from: undercovergeek on August 28, 2014, 10:17:58 AM
Quote from: airboy on August 28, 2014, 09:56:01 AM
A detailed discussion of this can be found at:
http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2014/08/27/kids_and_guns_lessons_from_arizona.html
The discussion is accurate.
In the USA automatic weapons are tightly controlled. This was a "legal" though stupid use. There are places where you can go and "fire an automatic weapon." There are several very popular places in Las Vegas for tourists.
Kids (say 8 and older) who are mature are taught to shoot in the USA. I was 8 when I was taught to shoot a single-shot, low caliber rifle. This is not unusual in our country. I also shot in either cub scouts or webelos - I know it was before I was in Boy Scouts.
All that being said, letting a 9 year old fire an automatic weapon is stupid. Letting anyone fire an automatic weapon without first firing a single shot or semi-auto is also dumb. As Jarhead said, the instructor also did not follow proper range procedure. I feel sorry for the girl, her family, the instructor, and his family.
I would be very, very cautious if I fired an automatic weapon - and I've fired almost every sort of long gun short of a 50cal Barrett that is out there.
so theres no legal minimum age at which kids can handle a gun?
im shocked
There are legal age minimums. They vary by State. Like most kids, I was taught by family members and also by firearms instructors in the Scouts. There are exceptions on kids using firearms under adult supervision (parents or instructors). Kids cannot purchase firearms (or ammo).
I'm afraid that most people outside the USA (and many city dwellers inside the USA) do not understand firearms, firearms instruction, or hunting. They have even less knowledge about teaching kids.
As our forum range officer I'd like to hear Smucks take on this.
It's nice to see a discussion of guns that doesn't turn into a total flame war.
I'm a gun owner, and during my time in the US Army spent quite a bit of time running M16 ranges. I never had an accident on my range, but there was one deadly accident that happened on the range next to mine (a soldier kept a live round, loaded it off the firing line, and accidently shot another soldier in the chest)
It was hard enough getting some 19 year old troops to respect the deadly nature of firearms, even after many hours of training. So I shudder to think that there are places out there who will let anyone of almost any age, who is willing to pay the fare, fire a fully automatic uzi. To me, it would be irresponsible to put a 9 year old behind the wheel of car, have them operate a bulldozer, or fly an aircraft...why is operation of a military firearm, designed for maximum lethality, any different?....IMHO giving a nine year-old a fully automatic uzi is criminal negligence.
Clearly there are going to be accidents with guns, just as there are accidents with driving cars, skydiving, or even walking across the street. IMHO that doesn't mean we can't put some reasonable regulations in place (like an age limit). As for me....I can't wait for the day when most of the cars on the road are driverless.
We'll - not wanting to get into the whole gun debate thing
But all I can think about reading this story is the difference between Liveleak and BBC news. You know - when the BBC show for example the after effects of an ambush on a truck convoy in the Ukraine - it consists of a burnt out truck and a few bits of wreckage. Go to live leak and look at the same incident and it shows war in all its disgusting mess.
Cant help think you watch the footage on the main news channel and it blacks out at the point the gun moves and before it takes his head off - she wasn't so lucky and she saw the live leak version - not sure how any nine year old can be right anytime after that.
Hoe he ever thought it right to put that thing on full auto for a nine year old girl is beyond me.
This is a tragedy, and it's totally on the instructor.
You don't start out your first time driving in a Formula 1 racer.
I learned how to shoot around ten years old. My first time on a range, I shot a single shot .22 target rifle, and that was honestly plenty for me at that time.
I didn't even touch anything beyond a .22 until I was 13 and got to learn with my grandfather's war prize 9mm P38 Walther. I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that without my previous experience with target pistols.
We have a lot of Class 3 ranges where I live, and I occasionally go shooting. I shot a few automatic weapons just to see what it's like, and honestly as an adult male who has a lot of experience with high caliber black powder firearms, I really am not very comfortable with compact automatics at all. I did shoot an Uzi, and it's an experience I really don't want to repeat. I didn't feel safe with that weapon. If it's not safe for me, it sure as **** isn't safe for a 9 year old child.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 28, 2014, 09:35:00 AM
I dont see a problem with shooting at 8. Having said that giving a kid an Uzi is pretty stupid.
An instructor on a news program put it this way...."it's not about gun laws, it's about common sense". I couldn't agree more. The instructor paid the ultimate price for his carelessness, the girl will be paying for this the rest of her life.
This isn't the first time an incident with a child has happened.
About a year ago there was an unfortunate accident where a ~10 year old kid had a full auto Uzi and killed himself.
I wondered at that time what they were thinking.
I'm not sure what circumstances arose for these instructors to decide a full auto was appropriate for a child of that age, but I most certainly wouldn't have handed them a full magazine. Allow them to at least become accustomed to firing two shots, then three, then four on full auto. Handing them (or anyone, frankly) a ten or twenty round magazine for the first time seems unwise in the extreme.
Unfortunately you cant make Laws that stops people being stupid.
Quote from: jejo68 on September 02, 2014, 11:39:19 AM
Unfortunately you cant make Laws that stops people being stupid.
True, but you can at least make them accountable for their stupidity.
I wouldn't be opposed to seeing a law that penalized the ranges and instructors for this kind of serious lapse in judgement.
Quote from: mirth on September 02, 2014, 08:40:40 PM
True, but you can at least make them accountable for their stupidity.
I think we can safely state that the instructor was held accountable.
True.
What happened to the instructor/range owner from the previous incident involving the death of the young boy? Was he sanctioned in any way?
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on September 02, 2014, 08:57:23 PM
Quote from: mirth on September 02, 2014, 08:40:40 PM
True, but you can at least make them accountable for their stupidity.
I think we can safely state that the instructor was held accountable.
Unfortunately a little girl now gets to spend the rest of her life dealing with his "accountability".
at 8 years old it will be a distant memory sooner rather then later.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on September 02, 2014, 09:45:12 PM
at 8 years old it will be a distant memory sooner rather then later.
Seriously? :o
Quote from: JudgeDredd on September 03, 2014, 12:50:45 AM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on September 02, 2014, 09:45:12 PM
at 8 years old it will be a distant memory sooner rather then later.
Seriously? :o
can you remember anything (hopefully not so traumatic, so let say something positive from last year kindergarten or first school year) from that early time? (in addition human psyche has the tendency to let you forget bad emotions ...until they get trigger by: a smell, a taste, a sound, a picture, a item )
... she may have problems later (persuaded guild) from constantly been told about it by others (esp mean children and juveniles) , but with the help of a good Psychologist she will learn to deal with the trauma as an adult
MikeGer I can remember a shed load of things from my youth...nothing even remotely touching this level of trauma either. My short term memory is a different matter.
I just met up with a woman I hadn't seen since I was 9 in 1976. The reason I met her was because I remembered her. I had a crush on her. I remember her being at the school and then I remember the next day she wasn't. I was "kind of" heart broken...and I still felt that whenever I remembered that image of her standing in the playground looking at me when she told me her mum was thinking about moving. Then she wasn't there. Now that was obviously a big deal to me because I remember it - and so vividly...but it doesn't even touch shooting an instructor in the face at point blank range with an Uzi!
Something like that is not going to leave a child's head...no way! Details? Dates? Times? Who was there? Where was it? They might go or be vague - but actually shooting the guy in the face and killing another human? Is anyone seriously telling me that would leave a child's mind?
Question for you GDS - do you remember any single event where you went hunting when you were a kid with your dad?
I'll leave this again and take it off my watch list.
I was interested - genuinely interested - in thoughts across the board - from people on this but I think suggesting a young child will not remember the event is ridiculous in the extreme to me.
Judge, you approach the incident like an adult (and a responsible loving dad of daughters) O:-)
see it with the eyes of a 6 year old ... 'she will not remember' is not meant as 'she don't care' but in a psychological 'blocked out' -way...
your funny story was from a 9 year old boy , try to dig deeper in time and you will find out ...you just cant get back to 5 or 6, only with a 'trigger' or maybe in a medical hypnosis.
also there are even false 'planted memories' of early years, that are not real memories, but memories that got generated some years later when you look a pictures of early childhood and get stories told about it ... like: 'look i found a box here with 10 year Polaroid picture, can you remember our first vacation at the beach your were 5 then, look how you dig the sandcastle'... you will add that scene to your memories, and now may later 'remember' - a sandcastle digging ..even if that never happend (while the picture-association was a mistage and its no you in the picture it was your cousin and taken 2 years later)
there are psychological experiments with testpersons, who get shown such kind of picture (no their own , bu they get told they are the toddler in the pic) and they start remembering a situation that never happend and even add more fluff to the story , like i remember the red Bobbycar was a gift from granddad motherside n such ... even so they had a tricycle instead and that granddad had passed away 3 years earlier...
i love reading those psychological articles in 'Spektrum der Wissenschaft' over the decades :)
Depends quite a bit on the family and how they help her deal with it.
If the family chooses to sue the range for 'traumatic' injuries to their child (given the litigious nature of the U.S., this is more likely than not), that would drag it out for several years and might not get settled or decided until she's a teenager. If that happens, it depends too on how much testifying she'd have to do, but she'd certainly have to do it at least once to describe what happened - despite there being a video showing all the terrible details.
its not like the guys head exploded all over the place. from what Ive read the accident happened and the parents pretty much scooped the girl up and went to a different part of the range after the accident. the guy died later at the hospital not at the scene.
.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 28, 2014, 10:16:04 AM
Don't get me wrong...shooting is a shit load of fun. I just don't think kids should be around guns. That's my personal opinion and it could be totally turned 360 if I lived in your country...you never know.
Again - it's more to do with them being kids than the dangers. Instructed well and sensibly, I'm sure kids can be very responsible and safe with a gun. But as a device to maim or kill, defend or whatever, I'd rather kids weren't exposed to such a grown up activity.
In the 80's I remember debates going on about arming the police. I was dreading it - because I saw it as an escalation - and I was glad it never went further. They are armed on occasions now - but at high risk times and places. Generally, your average "bobby" is armed with a truncheon (or whatever the modern equivalent is), pepper spray or CS gas and a tazer. I'm very glad it's that way. I know too many numpties in the UK whom I wouldn't trust with a pair of plastic scissors never mind a gun.
By the way the phrase Bobby (referring to a British policemen) is what they were nicknamed after their founder, Robert Peel. They were originally called Peelers I believe.
I'll leave it on that light hearted note. I'd rather this didn't escalate into the "disarming of the US" debate which often ends up in the mire.
I pretty much agree with Judge Dredd and Airboy about kids and automatic weapons. Next year my daughter will be old enough to shoot, and we'll be going to the local range, but she won't be shooting anything automatic, and will be taught safety first before she even holds a weapon.
Automatic weapons are bloody dangerous. Even if you drop one they can still go off. SMGs are close quarter weapons and even on a range are incredibly dangerous to nearby shooters. When I was in basic we had a guy turn along the line of shooters with an SMG. As he did so the instructor grabbed the smg out of the way, then punched his lights out. Two weeks previously a similar thing had been done and a guy was shot by negligent discharge. Now that was with the army - how much more dangerous are kids? :o