Range instructor shot

Barthheart · August 28, 2014, 09:32:50 AM

I think the person mainly at fault here is the instructor.... and he has been punished for his lack of judgement. Unfortunately everyone else involved is also being punished.... :(

JudgeDredd · August 28, 2014, 09:34:02 AM

Likely therapy for the rest of her life. She shot the guy in the head and point blank range! You're not going to forget that in a hurry.

I don't know what the answer is - I really don't. You've got your laws and hell will freeze over before guns are removed from the citizens of the US, that much is clear and you have your reasons for that.

But it just breaks my heart when tragic events involve kids.

They should be so innocent and it should be our job to protect them and their innocence from the big bad world until they are of an age when they can take the world on - and we all could at various ages. That might be the "perfect world" and yeah, I know it doesn't exist. But we should try to prolong their child hood for as long as possible.

I definitely think if you've got kids and you've got guns then the parents are absolutely bound to teach the child about the weapons and the respect of those...but I just don't think they should be exposed to the real thing. It is of course one of many billions of opinions...all of which will differ to a certain degree.

And don't anyone think I'm being judgmental. I'm not. I'm not calling for a ban on weapons. I'm not on about disarming US citizens...I just hate when these things involve kids of all things.

It's just a pure shame. God knows how that wee girl is going to turn out. :'(

And no - I'm not a hippie. I'm just a dad with two daughters who is imagining right now the state of my daughter if she was the one firing the Uzi.

GDS_Starfury · August 28, 2014, 09:35:00 AM

I dont see a problem with shooting at 8. Having said that giving a kid an Uzi is pretty stupid.

JudgeDredd · August 28, 2014, 09:40:18 AM

Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 28, 2014, 09:35:00 AM
I dont see a problem with shooting at 8. Having said that giving a kid an Uzi is pretty stupid.

Except for the fact, maybe, that you are giving an 8 year old child an object that can and will kill?

As I said - I guess it comes down to different upbringings. If you are brought up around them and with them then the harm, perhaps, doesn't seem to be there.

GDS_Starfury · August 28, 2014, 09:46:16 AM

.22 in cub scouts used to be normal. I even remember archery in grade school.
crazyness!

airboy · August 28, 2014, 09:56:01 AM

A detailed discussion of this can be found at:
http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2014/08/27/kids_and_guns_lessons_from_arizona.html
The discussion is accurate.

In the USA automatic weapons are tightly controlled. This was a "legal" though stupid use. There are places where you can go and "fire an automatic weapon." There are several very popular places in Las Vegas for tourists.

Kids (say 8 and older) who are mature are taught to shoot in the USA. I was 8 when I was taught to shoot a single-shot, low caliber rifle. This is not unusual in our country. I also shot in either cub scouts or webelos - I know it was before I was in Boy Scouts.

All that being said, letting a 9 year old fire an automatic weapon is stupid. Letting anyone fire an automatic weapon without first firing a single shot or semi-auto is also dumb. As Jarhead said, the instructor also did not follow proper range procedure. I feel sorry for the girl, her family, the instructor, and his family.

I would be very, very cautious if I fired an automatic weapon - and I've fired almost every sort of long gun short of a 50cal Barrett that is out there.

JudgeDredd · August 28, 2014, 10:06:26 AM

Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 28, 2014, 09:46:16 AM
.22 in cub scouts used to be normal. I even remember archery in grade school.
crazyness!

Well you might think that's crazy (I get your sarcasm) but I don't think I would ever put together archery and air rifling with 9mm, 5.56mm, 7.62mm or 0.5 cal.

JudgeDredd · August 28, 2014, 10:16:04 AM

Don't get me wrong...shooting is a shit load of fun. I just don't think kids should be around guns. That's my personal opinion and it could be totally turned 360 if I lived in your country...you never know.

Again - it's more to do with them being kids than the dangers. Instructed well and sensibly, I'm sure kids can be very responsible and safe with a gun. But as a device to maim or kill, defend or whatever, I'd rather kids weren't exposed to such a grown up activity.

In the 80's I remember debates going on about arming the police. I was dreading it - because I saw it as an escalation - and I was glad it never went further. They are armed on occasions now - but at high risk times and places. Generally, your average "bobby" is armed with a truncheon (or whatever the modern equivalent is), pepper spray or CS gas and a tazer. I'm very glad it's that way. I know too many numpties in the UK whom I wouldn't trust with a pair of plastic scissors never mind a gun.

By the way the phrase Bobby (referring to a British policemen) is what they were nicknamed after their founder, Robert Peel. They were originally called Peelers I believe.

I'll leave it on that light hearted note. I'd rather this didn't escalate into the "disarming of the US" debate which often ends up in the mire.

undercovergeek · August 28, 2014, 10:17:58 AM

Quote from: airboy on August 28, 2014, 09:56:01 AM
A detailed discussion of this can be found at:
http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2014/08/27/kids_and_guns_lessons_from_arizona.html
The discussion is accurate.

In the USA automatic weapons are tightly controlled. This was a "legal" though stupid use. There are places where you can go and "fire an automatic weapon." There are several very popular places in Las Vegas for tourists.

Kids (say 8 and older) who are mature are taught to shoot in the USA. I was 8 when I was taught to shoot a single-shot, low caliber rifle. This is not unusual in our country. I also shot in either cub scouts or webelos - I know it was before I was in Boy Scouts.

All that being said, letting a 9 year old fire an automatic weapon is stupid. Letting anyone fire an automatic weapon without first firing a single shot or semi-auto is also dumb. As Jarhead said, the instructor also did not follow proper range procedure. I feel sorry for the girl, her family, the instructor, and his family.

I would be very, very cautious if I fired an automatic weapon - and I've fired almost every sort of long gun short of a 50cal Barrett that is out there.

so theres no legal minimum age at which kids can handle a gun?

im shocked

BanzaiCat · August 28, 2014, 10:38:16 AM

Legally, I'm not aware of any restrictions, though I'm certain there are laws. I know of some people that start teaching kids about guns as young as 5, but they're not huge or automatic weapons, nor are they not without supervision at any time. Usually, in such cases, the family are hunters, and they want to expose kids to gun safety at a very early age. All the kids in such families I've known always grew up with a very healthy respect for guns.

The problem with 'gun regulation' and the hysteria the news is trying to generate - and keep in mind, I speak as someone that does not own a gun - is that such regulation will only hamper the law-abiding citizens, the ones that are responsible and lock up their weapons and know to not take any kind of risk at any time. The ones that do not act responsibly...well, accidents happen.

The bad elements of society, well...they're not going to be affected by added regulations.

However, making it a law so that kids that young cannot handle automatic weapons, or these ranges making it a policy that, say, you have to be at least 16 or 18 or whatever to do so, that makes much more sense.

airboy · August 28, 2014, 11:05:55 AM

Quote from: undercovergeek on August 28, 2014, 10:17:58 AM
Quote from: airboy on August 28, 2014, 09:56:01 AM
A detailed discussion of this can be found at:
http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2014/08/27/kids_and_guns_lessons_from_arizona.html
The discussion is accurate.

In the USA automatic weapons are tightly controlled. This was a "legal" though stupid use. There are places where you can go and "fire an automatic weapon." There are several very popular places in Las Vegas for tourists.

Kids (say 8 and older) who are mature are taught to shoot in the USA. I was 8 when I was taught to shoot a single-shot, low caliber rifle. This is not unusual in our country. I also shot in either cub scouts or webelos - I know it was before I was in Boy Scouts.

All that being said, letting a 9 year old fire an automatic weapon is stupid. Letting anyone fire an automatic weapon without first firing a single shot or semi-auto is also dumb. As Jarhead said, the instructor also did not follow proper range procedure. I feel sorry for the girl, her family, the instructor, and his family.

I would be very, very cautious if I fired an automatic weapon - and I've fired almost every sort of long gun short of a 50cal Barrett that is out there.

so theres no legal minimum age at which kids can handle a gun?

im shocked

There are legal age minimums. They vary by State. Like most kids, I was taught by family members and also by firearms instructors in the Scouts. There are exceptions on kids using firearms under adult supervision (parents or instructors). Kids cannot purchase firearms (or ammo).

I'm afraid that most people outside the USA (and many city dwellers inside the USA) do not understand firearms, firearms instruction, or hunting. They have even less knowledge about teaching kids.

GDS_Starfury · August 28, 2014, 11:09:07 AM

As our forum range officer I'd like to hear Smucks take on this.

ArizonaTank · August 29, 2014, 04:59:50 AM

It's nice to see a discussion of guns that doesn't turn into a total flame war.

I'm a gun owner, and during my time in the US Army spent quite a bit of time running M16 ranges. I never had an accident on my range, but there was one deadly accident that happened on the range next to mine (a soldier kept a live round, loaded it off the firing line, and accidently shot another soldier in the chest)

It was hard enough getting some 19 year old troops to respect the deadly nature of firearms, even after many hours of training. So I shudder to think that there are places out there who will let anyone of almost any age, who is willing to pay the fare, fire a fully automatic uzi. To me, it would be irresponsible to put a 9 year old behind the wheel of car, have them operate a bulldozer, or fly an aircraft...why is operation of a military firearm, designed for maximum lethality, any different?....IMHO giving a nine year-old a fully automatic uzi is criminal negligence.

Clearly there are going to be accidents with guns, just as there are accidents with driving cars, skydiving, or even walking across the street. IMHO that doesn't mean we can't put some reasonable regulations in place (like an age limit). As for me....I can't wait for the day when most of the cars on the road are driverless.

Zulu1966 · August 29, 2014, 06:50:27 AM

We'll - not wanting to get into the whole gun debate thing

But all I can think about reading this story is the difference between Liveleak and BBC news. You know - when the BBC show for example the after effects of an ambush on a truck convoy in the Ukraine - it consists of a burnt out truck and a few bits of wreckage. Go to live leak and look at the same incident and it shows war in all its disgusting mess.

Cant help think you watch the footage on the main news channel and it blacks out at the point the gun moves and before it takes his head off - she wasn't so lucky and she saw the live leak version - not sure how any nine year old can be right anytime after that.

Hoe he ever thought it right to put that thing on full auto for a nine year old girl is beyond me.

SirAndrewD · August 29, 2014, 09:10:57 AM

This is a tragedy, and it's totally on the instructor.

You don't start out your first time driving in a Formula 1 racer.

I learned how to shoot around ten years old. My first time on a range, I shot a single shot .22 target rifle, and that was honestly plenty for me at that time.

I didn't even touch anything beyond a .22 until I was 13 and got to learn with my grandfather's war prize 9mm P38 Walther. I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that without my previous experience with target pistols.

We have a lot of Class 3 ranges where I live, and I occasionally go shooting. I shot a few automatic weapons just to see what it's like, and honestly as an adult male who has a lot of experience with high caliber black powder firearms, I really am not very comfortable with compact automatics at all. I did shoot an Uzi, and it's an experience I really don't want to repeat. I didn't feel safe with that weapon. If it's not safe for me, it sure as **** isn't safe for a 9 year old child.