Its based on an all time world class hex & chit game. we have vassal etc... for No A.I. so I didn't bother buying it. I was so wrong its on sale for a day or so at matrixgames.com big discount. I never thought Id find something this interesting after ASL but the computer version does the work , making it realy easy to play such a deep game, I cant stress this enough you can be playing WinF in a couple of hours after watching the videos it comes with, also has some great tutorials. its got everything you ever saw in a war film.
I just didn't think anything without A.I. was going to be more than a chit mover, the game analyse everything, then you just click on a list item to see it on the map, Im not explain it well, its been so well designed to be not just easy but quality of the Graphics User interface. I like wargames and I thought well its the sort of thing that could be interesting, and wow wow , I nearly didn't buy it but now my xmass is going to be fun. its on sale quick now buy it.
I think matrixgames are so good because of these sorts of games likw witP and real wargames .
If you don't mind playing a game completely solo, and have it littered with bugs, then it's perfect.
maybe I missed the info on bugs, but I have just got the patch World in Flames 1.2.1.5 Update Posted: 3 OCT 2014 on matrix site, the patch is only 3 weeks old so I cant believe lots of bugs have been found, but I don't know
as a game creator of sorts myself , I know you have to patch a game before its right
PS: its only the initial release with no A.I. I fully expect an update to have it, and the tutorial videos on matrix youtube have a video showing the option of an A.I. game I think chapter 7 video
I don't have the game, but I believe there has been a long discussion about this here on the forums already, gameleaper.
No to dampen your enthousiasm, but I think many are rather sceptical about the title by now. AI is something that has been promised for a long time now...
Thx Yskonyn, I don't mind waiting for the A.I. as Im enjoying the solo for now, but Im hopeing for it.
Quote from: gameleaper on November 30, 2014, 02:10:05 AM
PS: its only the initial release with no A.I. I fully expect an update to have it, and the tutorial videos on matrix youtube have a video showing the option of an A.I. game I think chapter 7 video
There isn't an AI and there won't be for a looooong time. They are fixing bugs first and then netplay. Even when the AI is made, prepare to pay for it and I would hazard a guess at having to pay heavily for any AI they put out for the game. Definitely do not expect it free (which is what your post kind of implied).
Point taken JD, to be honest a game this complex would be a surprise to ever have an A.I. I am impressed by what I have already, but you never know how it will playout
When I watch the training videos and then open the program and fully grasp the details of the boardgame that are programmed in to this PC adaptation, I'm amazed at what I see as well. There's must be a *lot* of lines of code just to have the thing do what it currently does. So from a programmer's perspective (of which I am very much an amature), I too am impressed by what I see.
That said, with all of that of which they have done, it is still an unfinished product. I get game freezes and crashes and some times I get stuck in a screen where I know that it is wanting my input but for the life of me I can't find anything to click on in order to continue and I simply have to kill the process to exit the game. I'm sure that has something to do with me using duel displays because I don't have that issue when I keep all the windows on one screen. I digress however; I do hope that work will continue on this but from what I can tell it's basically a one man show doing all of that programming with streams of requests/bug fix issues coming at him from the playtesters. What they have here now is the shell of what could be one huge wargaming accomplishment some day (far away, in a time long long ago....)
Quote from: gameleaper on November 29, 2014, 10:22:25 PM
maybe I missed the info on bugs, but I have just got the patch World in Flames 1.2.1.5 Update Posted: 3 OCT 2014 on matrix site, the patch is only 3 weeks old so I cant believe lots of bugs have been found, but I don't know
as a game creator of sorts myself , I know you have to patch a game before its right
Sure games usually require patches, but this game has been constantly receiving patches since it was released a year ago just to make it playable. matrix released this as one of their premium products and it never lived up to that title. No game should ever be released that requires a year of patching, pretty good sign the game was not ready. take a look at the patch notes, each one is a very long list, mostly still correcting bugs. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever completed a large campaign, not even during testing. So who knows what kind of issues lurk in the end game. I believe some have had luck playing solitaire to a degree, so maybe you can get some fun out of that. I also agree with others that it likely will be years, if ever that an ai is released. By then they will have to rewrite the game anyway since technology likely will change by then.
Good luck with the game and hope you can find some fun in it. Who knows, maybe someday it will actually meet the original hype and expectations.
I hope the guy doing it has all the help he needs, and enough working life long enough to fix it then :) Im hopeing solo wont break.
If I had to make an A.I. for a game of this complexity, Id do it as simple as possible, and in a very short time it could be done. you use a brute force chess algo , by selecting a unit and moveing and attacking , then back up and do another for every possibility, then give each action a score , then do the best one. this can be done its so simple and no development needed. the unusual thing about this sort of A.I. is it finds strategy itself like forking to weak units etc... the A.I. would be slow it would take a few hours per turn, but it would have an A.I. then I would split the gameboard into windows of the main map overlapping and do the algo on each one instead of the whole map this would simplify the computers task and time. you never know the guy may read this and give it a try.
Quote from: gameleaper on November 30, 2014, 07:28:43 AM
I hope the guy doing it has all the help he needs, and enough working life long enough to fix it then :) Im hopeing solo wont break.
I worry less about the guy doing the development (although I thought he did have past health issues, could be wrong) versus how long Matrix can continue to support it financially.....no idea on how well it sold, but I have to imagine less then expectations and judging by the lack of activity in the official forums, doesn't seem like it might have the staying power it needs. Time will tell..
Quote from: gameleaper on November 30, 2014, 07:40:22 AM
If I had to make an A.I. for a game of this complexity, Id do it as simple as possible, and in a very short time it could be done. you use a brute force chess algo , by selecting a unit and moveing and attacking , then back up and do another for every possibility, then give each action a score , then do the best one. this can be done its so simple and no development needed. the unusual thing about this sort of A.I. is it finds strategy itself like forking to weak units etc... the A.I. would be slow it would take a few hours per turn, but it would have an A.I. then I would split the gameboard into windows of the main map overlapping and do the algo on each one instead of the whole map this would simplify the computers task and time. you never know the guy may read this and give it a try.
I admire your optimism:) Although I am a past software developer, never had to create anything like an AI for a game so I am no expert there. But I can only imagine the complexities of building a competent AI in any game, especially in monster war games like this where the AI has to implement global strategy based on actions taken by the user. As said before, I actually don't believe it will ever come, not because the developer can't do it, but I think they might have passed the window of opportunity and whether there is enough users to justify its cost of implementing and supporting.
cost of development would as you say have a limit, I was thinking out loud about getting the programmer out of the fire with a quick escape A.I. I know the game has a lot to think on, but I learned my most valuable lesson over a long time, think in the most simple amswers to programing nightmares :) but Im no expert on pro development either :(
Quote from: gameleaper on November 30, 2014, 07:54:11 AM
cost of development would as you say have a limit, I was thinking out loud about getting the programmer out of the fire with a quick escape A.I. I know the game has a lot to think on, but I learned my most valuable lesson over a long time, think in the most simple amswers to programing nightmares :) but Im no expert on pro development either :(
Your enthusiastic optimism is a breath of fresh air. This game has been pretty much ripped to shreds in these forums. I don't own it so I can't comment one way or the other. But with other games I am somewht like you gameleaper; I try to keep an open mind and enjoy it for what it is rather than hate it for what it isn't. Thanks for sharing your upbeat attitude with old farts like me.
Hey Im not upbeat, its the games are good :) I cant explain it I just love these sorts of games, and old hex&chit boardwargames , I kinda old I used my first computer in 1980 when I was 15 few mainframe terminals they were star trek then for sure
Quote from: GJK on November 30, 2014, 06:54:40 AM
When I watch the training videos and then open the program and fully grasp the details of the boardgame that are programmed in to this PC adaptation, I'm amazed at what I see as well. There's must be a *lot* of lines of code just to have the thing do what it currently does. So from a programmer's perspective (of which I am very much an amature), I too am impressed by what I see.
That said, with all of that of which they have done, it is still an unfinished product. I get game freezes and crashes and some times I get stuck in a screen where I know that it is wanting my input but for the life of me I can't find anything to click on in order to continue and I simply have to kill the process to exit the game. I'm sure that has something to do with me using duel displays because I don't have that issue when I keep all the windows on one screen. I digress however; I do hope that work will continue on this but from what I can tell it's basically a one man show doing all of that programming with streams of requests/bug fix issues coming at him from the playtesters. What they have here now is the shell of what could be one huge wargaming accomplishment some day (far away, in a time long long ago....)
it reminds me of Lock N Load game that took years after I saw it on matrix until I could actually buy it, but I'm glad they did manage to release it. the recent patch would have to be tested before I would accept the game isn't ready a patch can fix a lot, but I still am ready for it still being buggy, but I have to admit, no A.I. is ok if the enforced rules work(I will have to play for sometime to know), I would love it transferred to other games of this complexity too , like ASL would be great with enforced rules instead of vassal.
I disagree about the PC version of ASL. People have talked about how that would be *the* definitive tactical game on the computer to have ASL with an AI and rules enforcement. I think that it would be a bore personally. What makes ASL ASL is the interaction when playing against others. ASL is just one of those games that gives you priceless moments when that last battle for an objective hex comes down a pair of rolls in close combat (for example). Against a computer? Meh. Case in point is Conflict of Heroes. It's a fun little game when played on the tabletop but the PC game is a big yawn. Not to mention the task of coding all of that in to a computer game in the first place. You could probably do it with the Starter Kits but not full blown ASL. And you know that all of the ASL grog's would be hyper-critical of every mistaken rules interpretation that was miscoded.
Well for ASL and WIF, there so many rules that only a human mind can grasp and not easy to code. :P the rules weren't intended to be processed by machine but instead written for human minds to debate, interpret and take advantage of.
Exactly! Half the fun of ASL is arguing over the rules while actually trying to look the rule up!
I tell you I think differently, I had a hard time learning ASL from the big Folder on my own, I only play solo(I know ASL plays better multi,because of the reactive fireing choices eg: distract an enemy so the spend there defensive shots and move past with your other units, but I found a way round that) , so the learning of ASL for me was hard to do but I got there. I have long wished I could play WiF, but I was not ready to try to learn on my own again yet anyway, Now I just popped on the training videos to WiF and then fire up the game WiF and the enforced rules together with the videos I was playing with hardly any effort. Now maybe after playing the computer I will know about the actual boardgame and play that, I absolutely love WiF PC version solo and I would of probably took a long time to without the enforced rules.
I know what your saying but you already know how to play ASL, as a noobie to WiF the enforced rules mean I can play, if I was a noobie to ASL and had the chance of enforced rules I would of loved it. I have to say though it would have to be quality like WiF computer version, with its hyperlinked buttons etc...
I still quiver when I get the boards to ASL out and charge an MG nest, Ive just had the same feeling with Aircraft bombing raids in WiF PC game
when I say enforced rules that means no A.I. I don't know if you mean play CoH hotseat or A.I. enforced rules is a lot easier that creating an A.I. for ASL your plaing a brain either yourself of a PBEM but your prevented from doing an illeagle action.
QuoteAnd you know that all of the ASL grog's would be hyper-critical of every mistaken rules interpretation that was miscoded.
Of course Pope Perry had to give his
nihil obstat first before even thinking of letting the grogs check it out ;)
Quote from: Grimnirsson on December 01, 2014, 03:51:16 AM
QuoteAnd you know that all of the ASL grog's would be hyper-critical of every mistaken rules interpretation that was miscoded.
Of course Pope Perry had to give his nihil obstat first before even thinking of letting the grogs check it out ;)
Oh that's right....I had almost forgotten. You'll have to let me know how that's going and how that went.
@ gameleaper: I think that the tool to learn complex games such as WiF and ASL is a good one to have; don't get me wrong. And I think that it's apparent that you love to stimulate your brain - you love to write programming code and you play some of the most complex games out there, and I think that you must simply enjoy the learning process in and of itself. So you're having fun using MWiF to learn the game because it stimulates you. That's great! I actually will keep attempting the same because I'd love to learn how to play WiF. My point is there is a lot missing in the actual game play by playing against a non-a.i PC (or hell, even one with an a.i. as I suggested above). That doesn't make it a bad thing though. I wonder though if once you've mastered the games mechanics/rules, how excited will you be to play solo vs a non-a.i.?
Quote from: GJK on December 01, 2014, 05:53:36 AM
@ gameleaper: I think that the tool to learn complex games such as WiF and ASL is a good one to have; don't get me wrong. And I think that it's apparent that you love to stimulate your brain - you love to write programming code and you play some of the most complex games out there, and I think that you must simply enjoy the learning process in and of itself. So you're having fun using MWiF to learn the game because it stimulates you. That's great! I actually will keep attempting the same because I'd love to learn how to play WiF. My point is there is a lot missing in the actual game play by playing against a non-a.i PC (or hell, even one with an a.i. as I suggested above). That doesn't make it a bad thing though. I wonder though if once you've mastered the games mechanics/rules, how excited will you be to play solo vs a non-a.i.?
I have the gift of placing myself on both sides in my head so I enjoy solo, Id rather play a Good A.I. If I learned the game I would enjoy it solo if it had that spark of lightning, which WiF does so does ASL, I like takeing my time having a coffee , looking at the map, I can take a long time playing a game. I still play ASL solo, but I enjoy Lock N loads game much more because of ASL, Lock n Load is great fun, CoH tried to be a computer game not a boardgame, but WiF wants to be a boardgame on a computer its what makes it special. the vassal WiF does not have enforced rules and I didn't enjoy the experience. GJK as I remember a while back you have one of the best game train of thought of anyone Ive met, you seen things in my games no one else did and btw I put in Opportunity fire in wartactical because of you so thanks. I think we both enjoy the hobby :)
I've watched half the tutorial videos and I still don't know how to play it.
I don't think the videos are to blame there (though the voice over is a bit of a drone) - I just don't think I can keep the details in my head.
I don't know how many times I've started up Barbarossa only to be thwarted with the interface.
As I said - I love the style of the game and the mechanics sound interesting (scrapping, lend lease, oil etc, etc, etc) and all the various impulses - the game really intrigues me...but it is a mess currently (though infinitely better than it was on release).
Quote from: JudgeDredd on December 01, 2014, 07:13:06 AM
I've watched half the tutorial videos and I still don't know how to play it.
I don't think the videos are to blame there (though the voice over is a bit of a drone) - I just don't think I can keep the details in my head.
I don't know how many times I've started up Barbarossa only to be thwarted with the interface.
As I said - I love the style of the game and the mechanics sound interesting (scrapping, lend lease, oil etc, etc, etc) and all the various impulses - the game really intrigues me...but it is a mess currently (though infinitely better than it was on release).
I like watching videos on the game im into better than TV, I watch over and over, its so easy to learn like this.
The Matrix sale includes the physical manuals for the $69?
yes you can choose , manuals or not same price
We have fixed a lot of reported issues over the last year. There are still more to fix, but this is a game that's in a class of its own in many ways - especially scale and complexity. I've made many posts about the initial release and the mistakes we made, but we're doing our best to make it right with the community. We're currently focusing again on NetPlay after focusing the past six months on resolving the most common/severe single player issues. We're hoping to have a fairly good NetPlay update out before the end of the year, if the next week or two of development goes as planned.
Regards,
- Erik
Erik, thanks for doing the work we cant, and I am really glad to hear from the team unless your the one whose given us this game.
So development of netplay is back on the cards? That's going to be good news for alot of people.
gameleaper has actually inspired me to give this a look again - which I will do in the coming weeks
I bought it under the new sale. Gameleaper has given me confidence to install and take a look. The books should arrive today!
thanks guys, great news then :)
I bought WiF w/ books back at release but put it on the back burner. I'll be revisiting it again this winter as well.
its certainly a cold weather warmer, I think matrix are a great games company, where else could you get such epic strategy.
Quote from: ERutins on December 01, 2014, 10:27:49 AM
We have fixed a lot of reported issues over the last year. There are still more to fix, but this is a game that's in a class of its own in many ways - especially scale and complexity. I've made many posts about the initial release and the mistakes we made, but we're doing our best to make it right with the community. We're currently focusing again on NetPlay after focusing the past six months on resolving the most common/severe single player issues. We're hoping to have a fairly good NetPlay update out before the end of the year, if the next week or two of development goes as planned.
Regards,
- Erik
Thanks for the update Erik. A game with no AI = single player? I guess he meant hotseat (solitaire)
Sharp observation, jomni. ;)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's correct - we still call it single player internally as it only involves a single player. MWIF does not have an AI and will not have one until we get through the update process to fix the issues reported by the community and our testers. We expect this next NetPlay pass will help quite a bit, but there are more single player as well as NetPlay issues that will need fixing next year. At some point, when we and the community are happy with the state of the game, we'll look at adding in the AI. The support for an AI has been designed into the game, but it's not a priority to add it until the other issues have been resolved.
Regards,
- Erik
Erik thanks for your posting genuine info to us all, I await your updates . I have to say its the best game interface I ever used thx.
Hope you know the AI version will cost you again...
Quote from: gameleaper on November 30, 2014, 02:10:05 AM
PS: its only the initial release with no A.I. I fully expect an update to have it, and the tutorial videos on matrix youtube have a video showing the option of an A.I. game I think chapter 7 video
in spades I would think :(