This topic got pretty heated on the WG'er when it first broke, with a couple of die-hard Penn State fans getting very personal and aggressive in defense of their school. The first day of trial was pretty devastating for Sandusky, with a former victim/witness on the stand for 5 hours and a lawyer who must be trying to set up an incompetent defense strategy for appeal. Worth a quick read if you have a strong stomach:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--jerry-sandusky-molestation-trial-victim-1-credible-joe-amendola-.html (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--jerry-sandusky-molestation-trial-victim-1-credible-joe-amendola-.html)
Oh, and Penn State admins? Seems there was a smoking gun after all: Also Monday, Penn State acknowledged an NBC report about an email exchange between top university officials regarding accusations by assistant coach Mike McQueary that Sandusky raped another victim. Former school president Graham Spanier, athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz decided that not alerting the police would be "humane" to Sandusky.
Man - I have no use for diddlers! I hope he gets the justice the young victim's deserve. >:(
^Me too. I have to make sure not to bring it up to the byotch next to me. Total psychopath. And alum of Penn State.
Quote from: Steelgrave on June 11, 2012, 09:35:55 PM
Former school president Graham Spanier, athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz decided that not alerting the police would be "humane" to Sandusky. [/i]
Forget Sandusky for a moment, since it seems likely that he'll get his. What about these idiots?
I mean...there really are no words. No words.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on June 12, 2012, 02:15:27 PM
Quote from: Steelgrave on June 11, 2012, 09:35:55 PM
Former school president Graham Spanier, athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz decided that not alerting the police would be "humane" to Sandusky. [/i]
Forget Sandusky for a moment, since it seems likely that he'll get his. What about these idiots?
I mean...there really are no words. No words.
Looks like they are considering more serious charges against these pedo-enablers. I think that what Sandusky did was disgusting beyond words, but to have knowledge of it and do nothing......wow. It won't bother me in the least if the authorities decided to make an example out of these folks.
Quote from: Steelgrave on June 12, 2012, 03:04:49 PM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on June 12, 2012, 02:15:27 PM
Quote from: Steelgrave on June 11, 2012, 09:35:55 PM
Former school president Graham Spanier, athletic director Tim Curley and vice president Gary Schultz decided that not alerting the police would be "humane" to Sandusky. [/i]
Forget Sandusky for a moment, since it seems likely that he'll get his. What about these idiots?
I mean...there really are no words. No words.
Looks like they are considering more serious charges against these pedo-enablers. I think that what Sandusky did was disgusting beyond words, but to have knowledge of it and do nothing......wow. It won't bother me in the least if the authorities decided to make an example out of these folks.
At the very least, I would imagine they pretty much have to be fired...the firestorm Penn State would face if they let this band of morons maintain control after this bombshell would burn that entire place to the ground.
Aside from that, it might make me a horrible human being, but I sure wouldn't mind hearing about them being passed around a cell block for a year or so. After all, they clearly think that such things aren't THAT big a deal, so they probably wouldn't even mind...
^I hope they are sentences to prison but this whole thing runs so deep into local and state government all of them may get off.
Down with local and state governments - Let the revolution begin! Err...... Maybe we need a corporate sponsor to aid in the task?
The actions of the administration were clear examples of University moneyball, which makes it really really sick. It is amazing how much the Penn State games affect the economy of the area and, of course, the university. Bringing this to light would have been a liability for these guys. That "humane" quote makes it even worse. These guys should be sweating.
I say send a chapter of Space Marines and cleanse the campus of these pedaphiles
And now Sandusky's adult adopted son adds to the fray. How Sandusky will NOT get life in prison is beyond me, unless some kind of back room deal is made. The charges and accusations are actually getting worse, if possible.
Well, the verdict is in. But the courtroom will be closed until the entire verdict is declared, with no media transmission allowed until it's over. So we're probably looking at a hefty wait.
Guilty on 45 of 48 according to ESPN
Yep, the news networks are now reporting the same thing. Good riddance. Have fun in prison, Jerry.
Hopefully, somebody will shank the bastard if he ever gets near any other cons!
^No, personally I would rather him live to be 100 in prison and have what he did to kids done to him....by about a dozen of the ugliest men you would never want to share a shower with. Repeatedly. Dying is getting off too easy.
Quote from: Steelgrave on June 28, 2012, 09:20:49 PM
^No, personally I would rather him live to be 100 in prison and have what he did to kids done to him....by about a dozen of the ugliest men you would never want to share a shower with. Repeatedly. Dying is getting off too easy.
It's nice to know I'm not the only one who is this vindictive.
Quote from: Steelgrave on June 28, 2012, 09:20:49 PM
^No, personally I would rather him live to be 100 in prison and have what he did to kids done to him....by about a dozen of the ugliest men you would never want to share a shower with. Repeatedly. Dying is getting off too easy.
I'm ashamed to say I'm 100% in agreement with this.
Nothing to be ashamed of..... Anybody who hurts kids like this deserves brutal justice.
Did anyone else catch the line from one of his defense attorneys afterwards, where he was talking about how Sandusky was a good man who had lived a good life EXCEPT for the multiple convictions for child abuse that had just been handed down? I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.
^Well there is no denying Sandusky's mental illness. The issue is whether he should be institutionalized instead of incarcerated. To be honest I don't really care as long as he is gone. The real work now will be getting at his enablers and protectors...one of which, it seems, is dead and beyond accountability now.
Louis Freeh's report is out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/13/sports/ncaafootball/13pennstate.html?_r=1&hp
Gotta think charges are coming for more people. Certainly the school is going to be writing some big checks. And I hope the NCAA buries the football program.
Burying the football program completely would take a lot of time...but there are so many enablers involved, this case will be going on for months or even years. And it should. This whole thing is horrific.
Quote from: mirth on July 12, 2012, 08:28:36 AMAnd I hope the NCAA buries the football program.
There's nothing in this that should give the NCAA any jurisdiction over any part of this investigation.
That won't stop them from trying, as the prez (Mark Emmert) is a chickenshit who only reacts to bad press and will over-reach to look like he's doing *something* even if it's only symbolic. (An aside, if Emmert were in charge of the TSA, we'd all be flying on airplanes wrapped in saran wrap and carrying nothing except a ticket and only after a body-cavity search, such is his uselessly-symbolic over-reactionism)
But the truth is there was no NCAA violation. Remember that NCAA violations are things that against the NCAA's rules, but not necessarily against the law, or are unevenly legislated across the states so as to create an unlevel playing field for member institutions (like paying players to go to school, or faking classes to keep athletes eligible (http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/07/08/2185765/at-unc-no-show-classes-mostly.html)).
When the NCAA came down on Ohio State, the two rules that were broken were trading memorabilia for tattoos (bartering is NOT illegal, but this sort of exchange is against NCAA rules) and failing to report it to the NCAA (in no way whatsoever illegal, but clearly against NCAA rules). There were no NCAA rules violated by Penn State.
This is a legal matter, pure and simple. That doesn't mean that the university can't fire people for breaking the law. And in this case, they did. And the law will continue to function such that those fired people are going to jail and/or paying a shitload of money for their illegal activities.
Now, all that said, I actually agree with Gregg Doyel on this. Doyel is usually a blowhard ass-clown with about as much sense as the water bottle on my desk, but his point on this one is very clear: if the NCAA
does get involved, they've got no choice but to give Penn St the death penalty (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19504854/its-liberty-or-death-for-penn-state-football-if-the-ncaa-gets-involved), or they are going to be totally exposed for the sham that they are.
I don't quite get punishing the current Penn State football team, unless of course the back office still includes a lot of the enablers, etc. Does it?
It's not the team, it's the entire program and the problem is that the university spent many years placing the interests of the program ahead of stopping Sandusky from raping little boys. So I don't have one little problem with the NCAA giving the program the "death penalty". Just getting rid of the scumbags who were involved isn't enough in my opinion.
^I understand that. But what if the program were totally cleansed of all enablers? Is that possible? Are there that many in the woodwork?
I know that connections to this go all the way to the Governor of PA, but if they can all be rounded up in this investigation perhaps the football program can be surgically saved.
It don't think it should be saved. The school is practically built on that program and Joe Paterno and there was an institutional cover up of Sandusky molesting kids that lasted for more than a decade. I say nuke it and let them start over in 10 years.
These are the ones who should be punished most severely:
President Graham Spanier, former Vice President Gary Schultz, former head coach Joe Paterno, and former athletic director Tim Curley
In my mind they are as bad as Sandusky. Maybe the whole program is so f'd up that it does need to be ended. But it would be a severe blow to State College, the school, students, alumni and even PA itself, collective punishment for the crimes of a smaller group.
There's something to be said for collective punishment, so that in the future people are less likely to tolerate (or become) enablers of criminal behavior.
That said, there's also something to be said for staying in your jurisdiction. At what point have you so exceeded your mandate as to have it be irrelevant?
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 12, 2012, 09:45:19 AM
There's something to be said for collective punishment, so that in the future people are less likely to tolerate (or become) enablers of criminal behavior.
That said, there's also something to be said for staying in your jurisdiction. At what point have you so exceeded your mandate as to have it be irrelevant?
In the case of the NCAA, the mandate has been irrelevant for a long time. At least in this situation they could do some measure of good, imho.
The Dad part of me sees collective punishment as a good idea because of the crimes.
The regular guy part of me finds it inconceivable that so many people could be in on those crimes and:
a. think it's ok to not go to authorities
b. think that with so many people involved that they could NOT realize that at some point they would all be punished
Quote from: mirth on July 12, 2012, 09:51:22 AMAt least in this situation they could do some measure of good, imho.
the problem with over-reaching like this is the attitude it engenders elsewhere in the country, and suddenly you have Congress trying to hook Terry Schiavo back up to a machine, because, dammit
someone ought to do something!
Someone
did do something: they sent Sandusky away for the rest of his life.
Someone
is doing something else: preparing to send away the other Penn St admins (Curley & Schultz) too.
That "someone" is the legal system. It worked - Sandusky is in jail.
It would've been nice if it had worked sooner - and that's how Curley & Schultz are going to end up in jail.
But there's
nothing in this at all that falls under the NCAA. And just because the legal system didn't give
you your preferred outcome doesn't meant that they're wrong. It also doesn't mean that the NCAA won't over-reach to try to placate the masses like you who think that somehow they should get involved, just because...
That said, I don't think either one of us is going to change the other's mind, so I'm going to make this the last statement from me on this topic, so as not to get drawn into some circular, repetitive argument, and let others have their say, too.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 12, 2012, 10:02:32 AM
That said, I don't think either one of us is going to change the other's mind, so I'm going to make this the last statement from me on this topic, so as not to get drawn into some circular, repetitive argument, and let others have their say, too.
Agreed. I think you make valid points, but I'm not going to feel bad at all if the NCAA does give Penn State the death penalty.
^Nice, clear-headed summary Brant. I personally don't think the NCAA should get involved and that is related to why I think if the football program can be pruned and saved, it should be.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 12, 2012, 10:02:32 AM
Quote from: mirth on July 12, 2012, 09:51:22 AMAt least in this situation they could do some measure of good, imho.
the problem with over-reaching like this is the attitude it engenders elsewhere in the country, and suddenly you have Congress trying to hook Terry Schiavo back up to a machine, because, dammit someone ought to do something!
Someone did do something: they sent Sandusky away for the rest of his life.
Someone is doing something else: preparing to send away the other Penn St admins (Curley & Schultz) too.
That "someone" is the legal system. It worked - Sandusky is in jail.
It would've been nice if it had worked sooner - and that's how Curley & Schultz are going to end up in jail.
But there's nothing in this at all that falls under the NCAA. And just because the legal system didn't give you your preferred outcome doesn't meant that they're wrong. It also doesn't mean that the NCAA won't over-reach to try to placate the masses like you who think that somehow they should get involved, just because...
That said, I don't think either one of us is going to change the other's mind, so I'm going to make this the last statement from me on this topic, so as not to get drawn into some circular, repetitive argument, and let others have their say, too.
Brant is correct - the good news is that the system is working.
That it took so long to uncover is both good and bad. It's bad in that it took so long - there does appear to have been a cover up. The cover up is cultural. Putting the priority of a winning team over the welfare of kids. But in the end justice will be served. Delayed, perhaps, but served.
The other good news is that we don't have a justice system that is trying to anticipate these crimes. The 4th amendment may be suspended if someone misreads a post on the internet, but the good news is that they aren't conducting unreasonable searches in a quest to uncover real crimes. That there is an ironic juxtaposition in generating millions of false positive hits on the internet but can allow this kind of horrible crime to be covered up for decades is a shame, but blame should rest on the people doing the cover up, not the system(s) or the law.
Quote from: Gusington on July 12, 2012, 10:07:49 AM
^Nice, clear-headed summary Brant. I personally don't think the NCAA should get involved and that is related to why I think if the football program can be pruned and saved, it should be.
The NCAA is in the business of trying to manage sports programs for kids in college. It is not a criminal investigative service.
Blame the idiots who did the cover up. That they were overzealous is obvious, but that's not really anyone's fault but their own.
^Totally agree. The trouble with that is tracking how far into PA government and Penn State administration the cover-up goes.
Quote from: Gusington on July 12, 2012, 10:26:24 AM
^Totally agree. The trouble with that is tracking how far into PA government and Penn State administration the cover-up goes.
That is what good detectives are for. And God bless them as they go after the guilty.
Quote from: LongBlade on July 12, 2012, 10:20:31 AM
Quote from: Gusington on July 12, 2012, 10:07:49 AM
^Nice, clear-headed summary Brant. I personally don't think the NCAA should get involved and that is related to why I think if the football program can be pruned and saved, it should be.
The NCAA is in the business of trying to manage sports programs for kids in college. It is not a criminal investigative service.
It doesn't have to be criminal investigation service. The investigation has been done for them and they aren't assigning criminal penalties in any case. They are dealing with an institutional cover up of child rape by officials at a school within the NCAA's governance.
Quote from: mirth on July 12, 2012, 10:34:23 AM
Quote from: LongBlade on July 12, 2012, 10:20:31 AM
Quote from: Gusington on July 12, 2012, 10:07:49 AM
^Nice, clear-headed summary Brant. I personally don't think the NCAA should get involved and that is related to why I think if the football program can be pruned and saved, it should be.
The NCAA is in the business of trying to manage sports programs for kids in college. It is not a criminal investigative service.
It doesn't have to be criminal investigation service. The investigation has been done for them and they aren't assigning criminal penalties in any case. They are dealing with an institutional cover up of child rape by officials at school within the NCAA's governance.
Well, you're getting well beyond what I have any interest in knowing. I have no clue what the NCAA is or is not tasked to look into. All I know is that at some point real law enforcement folks were rightfully called in.
^And disappeared, in the case of the county (or was it state?) DA.
Quote from: LongBlade on July 12, 2012, 10:36:56 AM
Quote from: mirth on July 12, 2012, 10:34:23 AM
Quote from: LongBlade on July 12, 2012, 10:20:31 AM
Quote from: Gusington on July 12, 2012, 10:07:49 AM
^Nice, clear-headed summary Brant. I personally don't think the NCAA should get involved and that is related to why I think if the football program can be pruned and saved, it should be.
The NCAA is in the business of trying to manage sports programs for kids in college. It is not a criminal investigative service.
It doesn't have to be criminal investigation service. The investigation has been done for them and they aren't assigning criminal penalties in any case. They are dealing with an institutional cover up of child rape by officials at school within the NCAA's governance.
Well, you're getting well beyond what I have any interest in knowing. I have no clue what the NCAA is or is not tasked to look into. All I know is that at some point real law enforcement folks were rightfully called in.
I am certainly glad that it is being dealt with through the legal system and I hope that anyone involved in the cover up feels the full weight of the law. I also think it is within the NCAA's purview to address the Penn State situation with any methods at it's disposal.
another article re: the ncaa
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/andy_staples/07/02/penn-state-jerry-sandusky-ncaa/index.html
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 13, 2012, 01:46:14 PM
another article re: the ncaa
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/andy_staples/07/02/penn-state-jerry-sandusky-ncaa/index.html
He makes a good point regarding the NCAA: it isn't their job to enforce criminal law.
However, a few paragraphs further down I see this (emphasis added):
QuoteWhen arguing with NCAA Death Penalty advocates on Twitter, a common refrain from them is that if the NCAA doesn't punish Penn State's football program, no one will learn the proper lesson from this case. Canceling football games and revoking scholarships will do nothing to teach the necessary lesson -- which is that if a man doesn't exercise human decency and do the right thing to protect those who can't protect themselves, then he'll be fired and could go to jail.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/andy_staples/07/02/penn-state-jerry-sandusky-ncaa/index.html
On that point I'm not sure I agree. The alleged crimes were covered up because of a zealousness to protect the sports team. (Correct me if I'm wrong here).
If that's the case, there is no better way for the NCAA to indicate that a wrong has been committed than to crush the very thing the (alleged) crimes were trying to protect. Fanaticism in sports is no virtue when it leads to criminal activity.
The NCAA is well positioned to deliver that message.
There is certainly no lack of opinion, either way, on this issue.
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8160717/college-football-penn-state-nittany-lions-earned-wrath-ncaa
As far as it setting a bad precedent if the NCAA does sanction Penn State, I'm not sure how that's really an issue unless there are other schools deliberately covering for child rapists. In that case, I'm all for setting the precedent that severe action will be taken.
Wiping out the football program will only hurt innocent student athletes, State College, the State of PA, and the school. What should happen is that those who helped Sandusky should be pruned out and the program rebuilt. All IMHO.
Interesting CNN article about a woman who repeatedly clashed with Paterno and the cost that disagreement had.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/15/us/triponey-paterno-penn-state/index.html?hpt=hp_c1
Personally, I'm not comfortable with sports programs that wield this kind of power. YMMV.
Me neither, but that's Division I sports in the US. If you can get up to my office before I leave Friday, I could show you around and make you really ill. The amount of money generated by college athletics alone is staggering and is part of the reason I am happy to be moving to a state job. I just don't like being part of this kind of "sale-sy" machine. Who knows how much better the state will be, but at least there I will be able to claim I work for New Yorkers.
Quote from: Gusington on July 16, 2012, 10:28:54 AM
Wiping out the football program will only hurt innocent student athletes, State College, the State of PA, and the school. What should happen is that those who helped Sandusky should be pruned out and the program rebuilt. All IMHO.
You could say that about almost any situation where the NCAA hands down penalties. Usually the coaches involved move on and it's everyone left behind that suffers the consequences. The Pete Carrolls and Urban Meyers of the world don't suffer, their former schools do.
For me, the problem for Penn State is that there was such a pervasive culture of loyalty to Joe Paterno and the football program that it not only allowed Sandusky's crimes to go on for decades, it moved people at the highest levels of the institution to cover up the crimes. And we're talking about something far worse than paying football players under the table.
^Good point. But Paterno is gone. Weed out the remaining criminals and it could be closer to an honest program again.
Quote from: Gusington on July 16, 2012, 11:30:11 AM
^Good point. But Paterno is gone. Weed out the remaining criminals and it could be closer to an honest program again.
It will be at some point. Even if the NCAA imposes a death penalty, and that's still a big if, it will probably be for a year, two at most. Even if the NCAA stays out of it, the football program and the school are going to get an overhaul.
Pretty damning article of Spanier. Not calling for NCAA action, but highlighting the hypocrisy at Penn State.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--graham-spanier-penn-state-freeh-report-joe-paterno-curtis-enis-jeff-nalley.html
Quote from: Gusington on July 16, 2012, 11:30:11 AM
^Good point. But Paterno is gone. Weed out the remaining criminals and it could be closer to an honest program again.
The football program had nothing to do with what Sandusky did.
:o
You're kidding, right?
Quote from: Martok on July 16, 2012, 11:59:42 AM
:o
You're kidding, right?
No I'm serious.
What did Sandusky's action have to do with the football program? Was he raping potential recruits? Was he setting up liasons for potential recruits? Was he selling pictures of what he did to boosters?
Sure he was a coach but what he did wasn't related to the football program. If he had been selling drugs to the Crips and using his office as the transfer point, would you say the football probram supported gangs and drugs?
Quote from: Marty Ward on July 16, 2012, 12:19:05 PM
Sure he was a coach but what he did wasn't related to the football program. If he had been selling drugs to the Crips and using his office as the transfer point, would you say the football probram supported gangs and drugs?
If they knew about it and covered it up for 14 years, I sure as hell would.
Quote from: mirth on July 16, 2012, 12:28:15 PM
Quote from: Marty Ward on July 16, 2012, 12:19:05 PM
Sure he was a coach but what he did wasn't related to the football program. If he had been selling drugs to the Crips and using his office as the transfer point, would you say the football probram supported gangs and drugs?
If they knew about it and covered it up for 14 years, I sure as hell would.
If who knew about it, the players, the boosters, all the coaches over the course of the 15+ years it occurred?
Only a handful of people in the football program knew about what happened. They sure fucked up by not speaking out but to say the whole football program is somehow responsible and needs to be shutdown by the NCAA is wrong.
^With what I know about the case, I agree. 'Setting an example' is fine but the football team itself, the players, AFAIK...didn't know anything about the crimes. Who would it help by destroying the football team?
I don't know if we can say that honestly about Sandusky's charity though. It looks like Second Mile was set up as a clearing house for Sandusky's crimes.
Quote from: Marty Ward on July 16, 2012, 12:34:13 PM
If who knew about it, the players, the boosters, all the coaches over the course of the 15+ years it occurred?
Only a handful of people in the football program knew about what happened. They sure fucked up by not speaking out but to say the whole football program is somehow responsible and needs to be shutdown by the NCAA is wrong.
When the culture of slavish loyalty to the football program is so pervasive that child rape, committed repeatedly by one of the most beloved and admired coaches, is covered up to protect the program, yes the entire program should be made to suffer.
Quote from: mirth on July 16, 2012, 01:24:26 PM
When the culture of slavish loyalty to the football program is so pervasive that child rape, committed repeatedly by one of the most beloved and admired coaches, is covered up to protect the program, yes the entire program should be made to suffer.
Again, why? The players came in good faith and played with honesty and integrity. 99.9999% of the coaches were there to build a football team and to give the men who played a solid foundation to deal with life.
Sandusky, string his ass up. Paterno, rip down the statues and return the endowments if you think it needs to be done. The administrators who knew and stayed silent, screw-em.
But the thousands of kids who learned good lessons there and the hundreds of coaches who gave their all to help the players grow into responsible adults, don't tar them with the same brush. They knew nothing of what was happening.
Quote from: Marty Ward on July 16, 2012, 02:24:32 PM
Quote from: mirth on July 16, 2012, 01:24:26 PM
When the culture of slavish loyalty to the football program is so pervasive that child rape, committed repeatedly by one of the most beloved and admired coaches, is covered up to protect the program, yes the entire program should be made to suffer.
Again, why? The players came in good faith and played with honesty and integrity. 99.9999% of the coaches were there to build a football team and to give the men who played a solid foundation to deal with life.
Sandusky, string his ass up. Paterno, rip down the statues and return the endowments if you think it needs to be done. The administrators who knew and stayed silent, screw-em.
But the thousands of kids who learned good lessons there and the hundreds of coaches who gave their all to help the players grow into responsible adults, don't tar them with the same brush. They knew nothing of what was happening.
Because the head coach, at least one assistant coach, the school president, the AD, a senior Vice-President and others were all complicit in covering up for a coach in the football program who was raping young boys on campus, in the football facilities. The cover-up lasted for at least 14 years and the rapist was a revered figure at the school even while it was known that he was continuing to victimize children. The prestige and power of the football program was such that janitors who witnessed boys being attacked by Jerry Sandusky were afraid to speak out against him. Even now, after the conviction of Sandusky and the damning evidence of the Freeh report, the cult of Penn State football is so strong that many in the Penn State community are rushing to the defense of Joe Paterno, trying to balance his protection of a child rapist against "all the good" he did.
Quote from: mirth on July 16, 2012, 02:41:08 PM
Because the head coach, at least one assistant coach, the school president, the AD, a senior Vice-President and others were all complicit in covering up for a coach in the football program who was raping young boys on campus, in the football facilities. The cover-up lasted for at least 14 years and the rapist was a revered figure at the school even while it was known that he was continuing to victimize children. The prestige and power of the football program was such that janitors who witnessed boys being attacked by Jerry Sandusky were afraid to speak out against him. Even now, after the conviction of Sandusky and the damning evidence of the Freeh report, the cult of Penn State football is so strong that many in the Penn State community are rushing to the defense of Joe Paterno, trying to balance his protection of a child rapist against "all the good" he did.
I am not disputing who was involved or that they should pay for that but it was not a 'football' scandal. It was a scumbag pervert who was allowed to continue to do what he did because he had powerful friends who would not speak out.
The football program had nothing to do with it. The players didn't approve of any cover up. The coaches didn't 'approve' of the rapes. Nothing related to football had anything to do with what happened to those kids. The desire of the people in charge of running the University to 'protect' the moneymaking program is the reason Sandusky wasn't strung up years ago. Unless you have some reason to think that there is more of this crap still going on and coaches or players are involved, why would you hold them responsible for something they had nothing to do with, that occurred before the vast majority of them even got on campus?
The football program was Joe Paterno. The idolization of Paterno and Penn State football was so great that rather than stop a child rapist, the rapist was protected and lauded as a great man. Sandusky wouldn't have been raping little boys in the locker room showers all those years if he didn't have Joe Pa and the prestige of the football program protecting him. Further, Sandusky used his status in the football program to lure those kids in and to con the families into thinking he was some kind of hero. His success as a pedophile had a great deal to with the Penn State football program and the worshiping community built up around it.
^It did, but it also had a lot to do with Second Mile. That organization should definitely be shut down.
But I still don't think that the entire Penn State program should be dismantled. Pruned, not dismantled. The 4-5 major suspects are getting what they deserve right now. Joe Pa escaped...who knows what would have happened to him if he was still alive.
Most NCAA Division I schools are similar to Penn State. They may not have the massive following but most alums would just not want to believe that something this horrific happened at their school.
My co-worker drank the Kool Aid and was a believer. Now, with all the facts out and emerging, she admittedly feels embarrassed that she could have even for a second defended something like this. I would like to think that most alums (even our own Paplan) now see the forest for the trees.
Quote from: Gusington on July 16, 2012, 03:16:48 PM
My co-worker drank the Kool Aid and was a believer. Now, with all the facts out and emerging, she admittedly feels embarrassed that she could have even for a second defended something like this. I would like to think that most alums (even our own Paplan) now see the forest for the trees.
I've read things and seen video from former players, coaches, etc, still trying to defend Paterno. Some of his defenders are fairly prominent in the world of sports as commentators and analysts. That disturbs me a great deal and I think says a lot about the power that football has at Penn State.
Rather than continuing a circular debate with you and Marty, I'm going to agree to disagree and step out of this discussion for now. And I will concede that as much as I think Penn State deserves the 'death penalty', it seems unlikely that the NCAA will apply it.
Quote from: mirth on July 16, 2012, 03:07:39 PM
The football program was Joe Paterno. The idolization of Paterno and Penn State football was so great that rather than stop a child rapist, the rapist was protected and lauded as a great man. Sandusky wouldn't have been raping little boys in the locker room showers all those years if he didn't have Joe Pa and the prestige of the football program protecting him.
This is true. And when a person in a position of power abuses that power, be they government official, business person or preacher, you don't shut down whatever they were in charge of when they are exposed.
The military has had numerous ongoing sexual assault problems, years of it from Tailhook to rapes at the military Acadamies to abuses at boot camp, that have been covered up and allowed to continue. Should we shut them down because of it or just prosecute those involved and try to make sure it stops happening?
Quote from: mirth on July 16, 2012, 03:22:54 PM
Quote from: Gusington on July 16, 2012, 03:16:48 PM
My co-worker drank the Kool Aid and was a believer. Now, with all the facts out and emerging, she admittedly feels embarrassed that she could have even for a second defended something like this. I would like to think that most alums (even our own Paplan) now see the forest for the trees.
I've read and seen video of a lot of former players, coaches, etc, still trying to defend Paterno. Some of his defenders are fairly prominent in the world of sports as commentators and analysts. That disturbs me a great deal and I think says a lot about the power that football has at Penn State.
Rather than continuing a circular debate with you and Marty, I'm going to agree to disagree and step out of this discussion for now. And I will concede that as much as I think Penn State deserves the 'death penalty', it seems unlikely that the NCAA will apply it.
I think they are having a hard time reconcilling what happened to the man they knew. Heck at first I didn't want to think he failed so miserably but the facts show he did.
He had more than enough chances to stop it and he didn't. He may have done a lot of good things but they don't outwiegh what he didn't do. I think his legacy deserves whatever fate history decided to place on it.
Quote from: Marty Ward on July 16, 2012, 03:23:05 PM
Quote from: mirth on July 16, 2012, 03:07:39 PM
The football program was Joe Paterno. The idolization of Paterno and Penn State football was so great that rather than stop a child rapist, the rapist was protected and lauded as a great man. Sandusky wouldn't have been raping little boys in the locker room showers all those years if he didn't have Joe Pa and the prestige of the football program protecting him.
This is true. And when a person in a position of power abuses that power, be they government official, business person or preacher, you don't shut down whatever they were in charge of when they are exposed.
The military has had numerous ongoing sexual assault problems, years of it from Tailhook to rapes at the military Acadamies to abuses at boot camp, that have been covered up and allowed to continue. Should we shut them down because of it or just prosecute those involved and try to make sure it stops happening?
One last reply then. I think that I could find examples where specific programs within the government and military were shutdown due to improprieties or abuses. The Tailhook Scandal is actually a pretty good example. After the scandal in 1991, the Navy cut all ties with the Tailhook organization until 1999.
Quote from: mirth on July 16, 2012, 03:28:22 PM
One last reply then. I think that I could find examples where specific programs within the government and military were shutdown due to improprieties or abuses. The Tailhook Scandal is actually a pretty good example. After the scandal in 1991, the Navy cut all ties with the Tailhook organization until 1999.
But they didn't get rid of all their pilots or suspend all flight operations.
The Penn State football program will already suffer in recruiting, it will be a hard sell for the near future to get a top level recruit to go there. The players that are there now, particularly the seniors, had nothing to do with what Sandusky did and none of the coaches did either. I think they will get enough of a self inflicted penalty on the program. Punishing people who had nothing to do with the events doesn't seem to be right to me.
Quote from: Marty Ward on July 16, 2012, 03:36:18 PM
Quote from: mirth on July 16, 2012, 03:28:22 PM
One last reply then. I think that I could find examples where specific programs within the government and military were shutdown due to improprieties or abuses. The Tailhook Scandal is actually a pretty good example. After the scandal in 1991, the Navy cut all ties with the Tailhook organization until 1999.
But they didn't get rid of all their pilots or suspend all flight operations.
Correct. And I'm not suggesting that the NCAA end football across the country. Just at Penn State, for a year or two.
Really, I'm out now. I do enjoy debating with you, Marty but we could go on like this forever :)
Quote from: mirth on July 16, 2012, 03:41:36 PM
Correct. And I'm not suggesting that the NCAA end football across the country. Just at Penn State.
Really, I'm out now. I do enjoy debating with you, Marty but we could go on like this forever :)
Cool.
This debate sponsored by Gus.
The NY Times has a good roundtable-style debate of the NCAA/Penn State question:
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/07/16/should-the-ncaa-punish-penn-state
I'll just say this. If you're supporting the shutting down of the FB program, even for a couple of years, then the whole school should be shutdown. This went beyond just the FB program.
JoPa's statue came down overnight.
I read they were thinking about that.
Lesson learned: Football !> People
Taken down officially or taken down randomly? Either way I think it's a good move...JoePa was not clean-handed in all this.
Quote from: Gusington on July 22, 2012, 10:21:26 AM
Taken down officially or taken down randomly? Either way I think it's a good move...JoePa was not clean-handed in all this.
I thought I read a news headline that said the school was going to take it down.
IMHO there is too much group-think for a mob to have considered taking initiative; they're still processing the cognitive dissonance of worshiping the sports program vice the evil it hid.
PSU took it down this morning actually. Also, it sounds like the NCAA is going to have a press conference tomorrow morning at 9am and throw the book at PSU. Doesn't sound like death penalty, but it will be close.
^Interesting. If not the death penalty I wonder what.
^I'm thinking chain the legs of everyone responsible to Joe Pa's statue and dump it in the harbor....but that's just me.
Quote from: Steelgrave on July 22, 2012, 10:01:16 PM
^I'm thinking chain the legs of everyone responsible to Joe Pa's statue and dump it in the harbor....but that's just me.
That seems fair.
Breaking: NCAA vacates all Penn State wins from 1998-2011. $60 million fine. Lots of other penalties.
Full list of NCAA sanctions:
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/20120723/21207232
That is an impressive list. My respect for the NCAA has gone up considerably.
There's plenty of argument already about if went too far or it wasn't enough. I'm fine with what was done. It's pretty strong action and sends a clear message. I also like that they are letting the current players transfer out without any penalties.
I was very surprised that they took away all those wins.
Quote from: mirth on July 23, 2012, 10:22:25 AM
There's plenty of argument already about if went too far or it wasn't enough. I'm fine with what was done. It's pretty strong action and sends a clear message. I also like that they are letting the current players transfer out without any penalties.
I was very surprised that they took away all those wins.
I'm sure we can fight all day about too much/not enough but from my POV I see severe penalties - a clear expression of displeasure and punishment. This cannot be mistaken for a slap on the wrist, and for that I am pleased and grateful. Nothing can justify overlooking those crimes, and this action reflects that.
^ Full agreement, LB.
The message was certainly sent, that's for sure !
The NCAA's decision is severe but appropriate to the crimes IMHO.
^ You mean a minimum of 60 years and a maximum of 442 years in jail wasn't a clear enough message? :)
Quote from: Marty Ward on July 23, 2012, 02:34:06 PM
^ You mean a minimum of 60 years and a maximum of 442 years in jail wasn't a clear enough message? :)
None of his enablers are getting any jail time..... >:(
Quote from: Barthheart on July 23, 2012, 02:39:54 PM
Quote from: Marty Ward on July 23, 2012, 02:34:06 PM
^ You mean a minimum of 60 years and a maximum of 442 years in jail wasn't a clear enough message? :)
None of his enablers are getting any jail time..... >:(
Some of them will be. And there are going to be a bunch of civil suits against the university. The punishments aren't over by a long shot. The Big 10 could take measures against the football program in addition to what the NCAA handed down today. And the NCAA left the door open for additional penalties if it deems necessary.
Quote from: Barthheart on July 23, 2012, 02:39:54 PM
Quote from: Marty Ward on July 23, 2012, 02:34:06 PM
^ You mean a minimum of 60 years and a maximum of 442 years in jail wasn't a clear enough message? :)
None of his enablers are getting any jail time..... >:(
This sends an unmistakable message that if you hold any value in your school's athletic programs, the best way to protect it is not to cover up a potential crime (or overlook it) but rather to bring it forward to the proper authorities as quickly as possible. I have no problem with the message so constructed.
Quote from: Barthheart on July 23, 2012, 02:39:54 PM
Quote from: Marty Ward on July 23, 2012, 02:34:06 PM
^ You mean a minimum of 60 years and a maximum of 442 years in jail wasn't a clear enough message? :)
None of his enablers are getting any jail time..... >:(
Not yet. :)
And Paterno is dead so he's off the hook on jail time but he sure won't do anyting like THAT again.
Quote from: LongBlade on July 23, 2012, 02:49:04 PM
This sends an unmistakable message that if you hold any value in your school's athletic programs, the best way to protect it is not to cover up a potential crime (or overlook it) but rather to bring it forward to the proper authorities as quickly as possible. I have no problem with the message so constructed.
Well let's hope it doesn't happen in a drama or literature Department because they could never pay the fine and there are no victories to take away :)
As said above, enablers like the coaches and the university president are going to be getting their own trials. If they get sentenced, then IMHO a small amount of justice will be served. Granted the victims will be haunted by what happened to them forever, but at least they will know that the perpetrator and the enablers are in prison getting their "just desserts."
The NCAA ruling today is severe but not to the point where it destroys all of Penn State. Right now anyway. It is a good step towards 'pruning' the school of the sickos that were running around without wrecking everything in the process.
The NCAA also showed some balls in taking away all of Paterno's victory's from 1998 on. One thing I don't like about that: who wants to become the NCAA's most winningest football coach by default this way?
Quote from: Marty Ward on July 23, 2012, 03:08:21 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on July 23, 2012, 02:49:04 PM
This sends an unmistakable message that if you hold any value in your school's athletic programs, the best way to protect it is not to cover up a potential crime (or overlook it) but rather to bring it forward to the proper authorities as quickly as possible. I have no problem with the message so constructed.
Well let's hope it doesn't happen in a drama or literature Department because they could never pay the fine and there are no victories to take away :)
Let's hope it doesn't happen anywhere again, ever.
Quote from: Gusington on July 23, 2012, 03:11:11 PM
The NCAA also showed some balls in taking away all of Paterno's victory's from 1998 on. One thing I don't like about that: who wants to become the NCAA's most winningest football coach by default this way?
That would be FSU's Bobby Bowden
Quote from: mirth on July 23, 2012, 02:43:51 PM
The Big 10 could take measures against the football program in addition to what the NCAA handed down today.
I don't think the Big Ten will take any additional action. Right now, the only thing I could think of that they could do would be to kick PSU out of the Big Ten. And if they did that, they would need to find a school to replace it, and there are no other quality football programs around to replace PSU, unless Norte Dame is ready to join the Big Ten. The only other way to find a replacement school is to go way out of the geographic area, and I don't see that happening. Of course, the only thing PSU brought to the Big Ten was football, and that has just been taken away, so not sure why the Big Ten should keep them around.
Now that I think about it, the NCAA may not of handed out the Death Penalty due to PSU being part of the Big Ten. If PSU didn't play football, then the Big Ten would be only an eleven team league, which means they could not of had a conference championship game, and that would of hit the NCAA in the wallet. This way, the Big Ten still has the championship game and, if the Big Ten choices they can replace PSU when they find a replacement.
Quote from: OJsDad on July 23, 2012, 03:33:27 PM
Quote from: Gusington on July 23, 2012, 03:11:11 PM
The NCAA also showed some balls in taking away all of Paterno's victory's from 1998 on. One thing I don't like about that: who wants to become the NCAA's most winningest football coach by default this way?
That would be FSU's Bobby Bowden
Actually, it's apparently Eddie Robinson at Grambling.
The thing I am most impressed by in all of these sanctions is that the athletes didn't get screwed. They can immediately switch to any other school that will have them and not have to sit out a year as is typical for transfers. OR they can actually leave the football program, but their scholarship still counts for at least this year even if they walk away from the program.
^^
The victory record they're talking about is D-IA/FBS. Robinson was D-IAA/FCS.
There's a D-III coach closing in on 500 wins, too.
I don't know if the punishment is too lenient or too harsh, but it's about I expected. I'm surprised by Paterno's victories (going back to 1998) being vacated, but otherwise the penalties are pretty much in line what I suspected we'd see.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 24, 2012, 05:29:11 AM
There's a D-III coach closing in on 500 wins, too.
That would be John Gagliardi, the football coach at St. John's University, a small Catholic school just over an hour's drive from where I live. I believe he's currently sitting at 484 victories; if he lasts another 2 seasons (the man has been there since the Korean War), he'll almost certainly break the mark.
If JoPa is/was a legend at Penn State, then St. John's considers Gagliardi to be the right hand of God Himself. He turned St. John's into the D-III football powerhouse that it is today.