Yechhhh...
https://www.wargamer.com/welcome (https://www.wargamer.com/welcome)
Because why have, you know, a site called Wargamer be about wargames when you can fill it with clickbait garbage about MMOs?
They also just flat-out memory holed most of their old content... real classy.
Yes. A very sad end to a website and community with a very long and storied history. For better or for worse, I'm glad to have been a part of that history and I'm happy to still have many of the good friendships, which were forged in the crucible of our common experience over there.
R.I.P.
Today's first feel-old reminder. I made it to about 10:35am, so could be worse!
Still, glad to be here at Grogheads over the years.
Agreed. It's very, 'Corporate-Looking' now with lots of fancy bells and whistles but where'd the wargames go? :-\
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 27, 2021, 11:38:33 AM
Still, glad to be here at Grogheads over the years.
I'll drink to that. Hear! Hear!
Wargamer.com refugee here.
I was never active in the community, but I first noticed it going downhill a few years ago. I really miss the in-depth reviews that stuck to the topic at hand (namely, WARGAMING). Seeing some of the articles published within the past couple of months (especially the editorial inclusion of snide and unnecessary comments on race - completely inappropriate and unrelated to a review about a war GAME) was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I've since refused to give them my time, attention or (more importantly) ad-revenue by visiting the site, and had completely eliminated it from my wargaming rotation of websites since October or so.
However, I couldn't help but take a peek today after seeing the title of this thread, and boy am I glad I jumped ship when I did. What a complete and utter disgrace. MMOs? Fantasy miniatures? I hope they fail miserably.
I'm glad I found this little corner of the internet thanks to a user who posted a link to this site on wargamer as a suggestion to sites to migrate to.
Looks just like Strategy Gamer now. Sad to see them both end this way. Happy to be a lurker here on Grogheads! :bd:
Quote from: rustyshackleford on January 27, 2021, 11:45:16 AM
Wargamer.com refugee here.
I was never active in the community, but I first noticed it going downhill a few years ago. I really miss the in-depth reviews that stuck to the topic at hand (namely, WARGAMING). Seeing some of the articles published within the past couple of months (especially the editorial inclusion of snide and unnecessary comments on race - completely inappropriate and unrelated to a review about a war GAME) was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I've since refused to give them my time, attention or (more importantly) ad-revenue by visiting the site, and had completely eliminated it from my wargaming rotation of websites since October or so.
However, I couldn't help but take a peek today after seeing the title of this thread, and boy am I glad I jumped ship when I did. What a complete and utter disgrace. MMOs? Fantasy miniatures? I hope they fail miserably.
I'm glad I found this little corner of the internet thanks to a user who posted a link to this site on wargamer as a suggestion to sites to migrate to.
We're very happy to have you, and that is so even though we barely have any ad revenue for you to contribute to. Welcome and bring all of your friends!
They very quickly deleted my forum thread over there complaining about the change. Well done, fellows, well done.
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on January 27, 2021, 10:55:16 AM
Yechhhh...
https://www.wargamer.com/welcome (https://www.wargamer.com/welcome)
Because why have, you know, a site called Wargamer be about wargames when you can fill it with clickbait garbage about MMOs?
They also just flat-out memory holed most of their old content... real classy.
I provided some computer wargame related content to wargamer when it was just starting, so sad to see it turn into this. Wargamer also had some really good reviews, from some solid members of the wargaming community such as Bill Gray. It is sad to see this content now sent into a black hole. I guess that is why I should send some more donations to the internet wayback machine.
I guess the lesson is that on the internet, content and sites are fleeting.
Quantity over quality, eh? >:(
You've got to wonder what the discussion was:
"We're a niche website that caters to a very specific hobby and has a loyal base of longstanding readers. How can we improve the site?"
"I have an idea. Let's abandon our namesake topic, alienate our small audience of loyal users, some of whom have been with us for decades, and fill the site with a bunch of ads and irrelevant articles about completely different hobbies. Because people who want to play fantasy MMOs will definitely come to wargamer.com!"
"Awesome idea! Let's do it!"
"Oh, and don't just archive the old content, but actively go out of your way to delete the 20-plus years of articles that built up the site and ensure no one can ever read it again. And make sure you squelch any discussion or debate on the topic!"
"Got it. That will definitely keep our loyal readers coming back!"
It must have been a discussion held in a room full of MBAs.
I too am a Wargamer refugee. If Grogheads can offer anything, it is solace to those...displaced. Welcome guys.
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on January 27, 2021, 12:28:54 PM
You've got to wonder what the discussion was:
"We're a niche website that caters to a very specific hobby and has a loyal base of longstanding readers. How can we improve the site?"
"I have an idea. Let's abandon our namesake topic, alienate our small audience of loyal users, some of whom have been with us for decades, and fill the site with a bunch of ads and irrelevant articles about completely different hobbies. Because people who want to play fantasy MMOs will definitely come to wargamer.com!"
"Awesome idea! Let's do it!"
"Oh, and don't just archive the old content, but actively go out of your way to delete the 20-plus years of articles that built up the site and ensure no one can ever read it again. And make sure you squelch any discussion or debate on the topic!"
"Got it. That will definitely keep our loyal readers coming back!"
It must have been a discussion held in a room full of MBAs.
I mean, did they really even have any active loyal followers in the their forums anymore? Seemed like everyone has migrated here or to some place elsewhere. Heck, even their last editor, Wargamerjoe posted here more than he did there. :clap:
I am not especially elated by the situation. The changes left & right are currently striking a deep blow to the presence of digital wargaming online.
I won't judge the new Wargamer.com management before I get to see what will come out of it. But the trend started with Tim Stone being booted from Rock Paper Shotgun and it hasn't got better since then.
I'd really rather have everybody unite together around a strong unique platform instead of remaining scattered, because this is the only way our communities are reaching the critical mass - but I know it is but a wet dream right now. I wish it could be more than that, a website with writing merits & an active board community both. But one can have unreasonable hopes, cannot he?
^If I didn't, I'd be left with nothing!
How long ago is it that Slitherine/Matrix let go of wargamer.com?
Quote from: Redwolf on January 27, 2021, 01:33:45 PM
How long ago is it that Slitherine/Matrix let go of wargamer.com?
I would approximate about 8 years or so. It was acquired by Network N.
Egad.
:-\
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 27, 2021, 01:45:01 PM
Quote from: Redwolf on January 27, 2021, 01:33:45 PM
How long ago is it that Slitherine/Matrix let go of wargamer.com?
I would approximate about 8 years or so. It was acquired by Network N.
I thought it was a lot more recent than that, but I never payed attention too closely. I lost interest in the site when Matrix/Slitherine took them over because it felt like they were just shilling for that one publisher, and it has taken a long time for me to become comfortable with M/S since then.
Maybe we should throw them a Wake? I'll start tonight with a double Bourbon. :hug:
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on January 27, 2021, 12:28:54 PM
You've got to wonder what the discussion was:
It must have been a discussion held in a room full of MBAs.
I'd be willing to bet that there was also marketing weenie discussion about the "wargamer.com" URL as an "asset." The URL is mighty close to "wargaming.net"... the "World of Tanks", "World of Warplanes" and "World of Warships" guys.
But regarding the business side of this, historical war gaming in particular is such a small niche that much of the growth seems to be moving to social media. This will make monetization harder than it already was. So I think the corporate guys behind this acquisition will inevitably push the site towards eurogames and console FPS/RTSs.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on January 27, 2021, 03:05:59 PM
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on January 27, 2021, 12:28:54 PM
You've got to wonder what the discussion was:
It must have been a discussion held in a room full of MBAs.
I'd be willing to bet that there was also marketing weenie discussion about the "wargamer.com" URL as an "asset." The URL is mighty close to "wargaming.net"... the "World of Tanks", "World of Warplanes" and "World of Warships" guys.
But regarding the business side of this, historical war gaming in particular is such a small niche that much of the growth seems to be moving to social media. This will make monetization harder than it already was.
Social media and video formats. Young people don't read anymore.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 27, 2021, 03:08:36 PM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on January 27, 2021, 03:05:59 PM
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on January 27, 2021, 12:28:54 PM
You've got to wonder what the discussion was:
It must have been a discussion held in a room full of MBAs.
I'd be willing to bet that there was also marketing weenie discussion about the "wargamer.com" URL as an "asset." The URL is mighty close to "wargaming.net"... the "World of Tanks", "World of Warplanes" and "World of Warships" guys.
But regarding the business side of this, historical war gaming in particular is such a small niche that much of the growth seems to be moving to social media. This will make monetization harder than it already was.
Social media and video formats. Young people don't read anymore.
But if there's no money in it why bother trying to string along the domain at all? I mean, if you want to make lots of money on Twitch streaming Call of Duty and whatever garbage MOBA is all the rage this week, whatever, but create some other site to do it. You don't buy finewinesandcheeses.com to try to create a TikTok competitor.
And let this be an object lesson to you budding media editors out there about the importance of framing and messaging: I suspect there is some way they could have done largely the same thing they're doing and presented it as a way to keep wargaming journalism alive in the rapidly changing internet landscape, etc. But the way they're going about it, actively bragging about moving away from wargaming content, eliminating their entire archive of material, and otherwise disavowing the legacy of the website whose skin they are now wearing- surely the only asset that domain still possesses- they are very effectively driving away whatever tiny audience they might have had left.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 27, 2021, 03:08:36 PM
Young people don't read anymore.
They think Call of Duty is a war game and complain that they ask $80 for a game like Command Operations while the graphics suck.
A Slitherine/Matrix stream on Twitch has around 200 viewers while a chick with a pool stream generates over 5K.
Maybe there aren't enough people like us around to keep real war gaming and war gaming sites profitable.
I'd echo Hellfish's sentiment above. I kind of stopped trusting any editorial content relating to Matrix/Slitherine products. Running a free-to-users website whose primary product is honest game reviews but whose funding comes from game advertisers creates some real adverse conflict within your business model, even before you're actually owned by a gaming company....
I wish the folks luck in their new endeavor. Clearly, if the old wargamer site had been able to sustain itself, it wouldn't have gone the direction it did. The fragmentation in the industry makes it hard to run even a break-even business for too long.
As for their welcome to the new page, the fact that it was put out with a ton of garish advertisements and pop-up ads isn't what I'd call a best practice. Which all points back to that money thing...
Quote from: Pete Dero on January 27, 2021, 03:33:28 PM
Maybe there aren't enough people like us around to keep real war gaming and war gaming sites profitable.
Very true...sad, but true.
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...
Here at Grogheads, we don't do it for the money and profit. We do it for the free alcohol and for the ladies.
I don't generally like reinforcing negativity or something I do not like. My (admittedly new) philosophy is to not give legitimacy to bad things by engaging with them and instead just ignoring them. Especially these days in a world of cancel culture and outrage mobs, it is usually best to just compliment the things you like and ignore the things you do not.
But wargamer... man. I was worried a few months back when they were talking about the transition, and some of the more outward statements they were making in regards to political correctness and all that, but I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt. After all, a lot of that talk nowadays is just posturing to try to avert the outrage mob. Sadly though it appears they really have decided to fundamentally gut the heart and soul of the website.
To me, the most frustrating aspect of this is the "plebitization" of the platform. They are essentially dumbing down their content and expanding into new areas such as Magic The Gathering and Warhammer in an attempt to attract a larger reader base. I really despise when I see this happen. One of the reasons wargames are niche is because they tend to be more complicated than your average game. The intent is to entertain as a result of thinking and knowing, as opposed to entertain by looking cool and being flashy. But, most people just want to sit back, turn their brains off, and be entertained by games. Not a bad thing of course, but for those of us seeking something more specific like wargames, having the wargames themselves dumbed down to appeal to a larger audience is not the right answer in my opinion.
Unfortunately, I think this new model will end up working for them. They will likely find the reader base they want by watering down their content the way they are, which is the most frustrating. I've seen it happen before. For example (and highly ironically) the Wargame series of games did exactly this. The first game was a very new and interesting look at an under-developed period of warfare using unique systems and had enough elements of realism to make it a wargame in my opinion. The second game was an improvement in every way and really refined the system. Then the developers realized they could greatly expand their playerbase by dumbing down the game and making it accessible to the masses by making it a more "competitive multiplayer RTS experience." The Total War series essentially did the same thing, starting off as a wargame with decent realistic aspects before dumbing itself down and turning itself into just another game for the mindless masses.
None of that is meant to insult anyone who enjoys the modern Total War titles or the most recent Wargame title, they are just examples used to explain a trend. A trend that it appears Wargamer has decided to follow in the name of more clicks.
Oh well. To end on a more upbeat note, Grogheads is still a bastion of wargaming goodness, and a lot of my wargaming news ends up coming from these forums anyways. I'm no mind reader, but it would appear JH has no intention of drastically and fundamentally changing Grogheads any time soon. And who knows, maybe wargamers loss is Grogheads gain? Maybe this is an opportunity for Grogheads to fill the niche that wargamer has now abandoned.
What really strikes me about the new content they're pushing is just how generic and low-level it all seems to be. How to manage your forces in Hearts of Iron IV? Introductory guide to Gloomhaven? How to build a Magic: The Gathering deck? Who the hell wants to read this crap?
Hi All,
I knew this day would finally come when I actually got involved and registered to post. Hi, I'm a lurker of more than two decades (I can say that I have visited the Grogheads site everyday (excluding weekends) since it went live. I was a lurker on the Wargamer site before 2000. Freak, it's been a while since then. And I've been a lurker here on Grogheads ever since it's creation. But this post has brought out the nostalgia in me. I really enjoyed Wargamer.com way back when. I rarely go there now because it seems more like a veiled commercial for certain games then an open discussion about wargaming in general. Way back when, I thought it was very informative, entertaining and had great discussions about wargaming. Plus I loved the nut-ball immature humor that was laced throughout all of the reviews and forum posts. But Grogheads is where it's at now for me. \m/
<Slinking back into obscurity> ;D
Mike
Quote from: IICptMillerII on January 27, 2021, 04:15:51 PM
I'm no mind reader, but it would appear JH has no intention of drastically and fundamentally changing Grogheads any time soon. And who knows, maybe wargamers loss is Grogheads gain? Maybe this is an opportunity for Grogheads to fill the niche that wargamer has now abandoned.
"They can have my grog when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers!"
The community here is great. My only hope is that we can all move forward together in 2021 and try to bring the focus in the forums back to wargaming. The political stuff has its place, but it ends up dividing us and we are so much stronger when we are focused on the thing that brought us all together in the first place. The gaming!
In any event, all strays and refugees from Wargamer who weren't already here are welcome. I'm extremely happy to see some new faces and look forward to their contributions.
^Welcome, SlagDog
And here, here JH
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 27, 2021, 04:06:35 PM
Quote from: Pete Dero on January 27, 2021, 03:33:28 PM
Maybe there aren't enough people like us around to keep real war gaming and war gaming sites profitable.
Very true...sad, but true.
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...
Here at Grogheads, we don't do it for the money and profit. We do it for the free alcohol and for the ladies.
I don't know if that's true.
I'd posit, instead, that there are lots of wargamers, but there aren't a lot of good wargames out there and even fewer than innovate. Professional wargaming is huge right now but you'd never know that by looking at what the gaming world - and especially us grognards - talk about and play (and for those of us with the mean, to develop).
A huge number of wargames are still archaic hex and counter games. I don't care how amazing your game system is, if you put it in on counters and hexes like Tactics II from a bajillion years ago, you're never going to pique my interest.
Where, instead, are the wargames that do logistics well, or provide the player with explicit decisions and real consequences (besides just the loss of a ship/plane/tank)? Where are the wargames - be they 4X, political sims, strategic/tactical/operational games or whatever - that have an AI/programmed opponent that can improvise? Nearly every game we play, the AI opponent will make a direct bee-line for whatever passes as an objective.
Nearly all of out wargames are built in these clean, known, well researched contexts with easily exploitable AI/programmed opponents and/or multiplayer systems that are balanced so perfectly, or so perfectly flawed, as to be completely flavorless.
Wargaming needs something like Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020. Accessible, attractive and easy to learn. But, like my girlfriend, she'll accidentally learn how to fly (or wargame) along the way because that way is compelling.
Quote from: al_infierno on January 27, 2021, 04:20:12 PM
What really strikes me about the new content they're pushing is just how generic and low-level it all seems to be. How to manage your forces in Hearts of Iron IV? Introductory guide to Gloomhaven? How to build a Magic: The Gathering deck? Who the hell wants to read this crap?
It is so generic that it feels like a bot is writing it.
A bot that is designed to be so generic that its real purpose is to just generate web-clicks to satisfy a requirement for an online advertising agency.
Quote from: Apocalypse 31 on January 27, 2021, 07:01:54 PM
Quote from: al_infierno on January 27, 2021, 04:20:12 PM
What really strikes me about the new content they're pushing is just how generic and low-level it all seems to be. How to manage your forces in Hearts of Iron IV? Introductory guide to Gloomhaven? How to build a Magic: The Gathering deck? Who the hell wants to read this crap?
It is so generic that it feels like a bot is writing it.
A bot that is designed to be so generic that its real purpose is to just generate web-clicks to satisfy a requirement for an online advertising agency.
BINGO.
Appeal to the lowest-common denominator. Generate ad-clicks. Profit.
Quote from: hellfish6 on January 27, 2021, 05:55:45 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 27, 2021, 04:06:35 PM
Quote from: Pete Dero on January 27, 2021, 03:33:28 PM
Maybe there aren't enough people like us around to keep real war gaming and war gaming sites profitable.
Very true...sad, but true.
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...
Here at Grogheads, we don't do it for the money and profit. We do it for the free alcohol and for the ladies.
I don't know if that's true.
I'd posit, instead, that there are lots of wargamers, but there aren't a lot of good wargames out there and even fewer than innovate. Professional wargaming is huge right now but you'd never know that by looking at what the gaming world - and especially us grognards - talk about and play (and for those of us with the mean, to develop).
A huge number of wargames are still archaic hex and counter games. I don't care how amazing your game system is, if you put it in on counters and hexes like Tactics II from a bajillion years ago, you're never going to pique my interest.
Where, instead, are the wargames that do logistics well, or provide the player with explicit decisions and real consequences (besides just the loss of a ship/plane/tank)? Where are the wargames - be they 4X, political sims, strategic/tactical/operational games or whatever - that have an AI/programmed opponent that can improvise? Nearly every game we play, the AI opponent will make a direct bee-line for whatever passes as an objective.
Nearly all of out wargames are built in these clean, known, well researched contexts with easily exploitable AI/programmed opponents and/or multiplayer systems that are balanced so perfectly, or so perfectly flawed, as to be completely flavorless.
Wargaming needs something like Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020. Accessible, attractive and easy to learn. But, like my girlfriend, she'll accidentally learn how to fly (or wargame) along the way because that way is compelling.
I'd agree with you for PC gaming - nothing really new in the past decade or so, BUT I believe we are currently living through the Golden Ages of tabletop wargaming; I don't mean miniatures, but rather the classic hex-and-counter-chit type of wargaming. There are so many great and innovative games out there right now. Ghost Panzer comes to mind about one I've played recently.....traditional hex-and-counter wargame but it simulates suppression fire like no other game I've ever played, PC included. And it's just a blast to play.
When I go to a site called "wargamer.com", THOSE are the types of games I expect to read about. Not MMO Fantasy stuff, or mainstream "war" games. The big games will always have their own devoted websites I can go to for tutorials, guides, etc. But with these great tabletop games, they're so small that even the big "names" rarely get their own official or fan-made websites. That doesn't devalue them or make them any less engaging and fun, but they get lost in the shadows and are never discovered.
Quote from: Apocalypse 31 on January 27, 2021, 07:01:54 PM
Quote from: al_infierno on January 27, 2021, 04:20:12 PM
What really strikes me about the new content they're pushing is just how generic and low-level it all seems to be. How to manage your forces in Hearts of Iron IV? Introductory guide to Gloomhaven? How to build a Magic: The Gathering deck? Who the hell wants to read this crap?
It is so generic that it feels like a bot is writing it.
A bot that is designed to be so generic that its real purpose is to just generate web-clicks to satisfy a requirement for an online advertising agency.
Spot on description.
Welcome Slagdog!
I can frequently get insight from reviews or questions on the forums to games I've not played and am considering purchasing. I've also gotten many suggestions that have helped me enjoy games more.
Ignore the politics thread if it is not of interest. But I will say that some of the people I tend to disagree with have been most helpful on many game topics. In fact, I don't think I've ever gotten any suggestions on any game question I've ever brought up that was not either useful or humorous.
One last point, if you have something that you would like to review that may be of interest to those here - contact Jarhead. I have found almost all of the reviews to be helpful. Some were helpful in pointing out that this is a genre I would not enjoy. Others have been helpful in pointing out things I would like.
I cut my teeth way back about 1998-99 on the Wargamer, one of the first sites I can remember going to. I didn't really know such a place existed. I came here to check-out some real people's opinion of Skyrim back when it came out to see what was the scoop on it. And I've never left--- that should scare the shit out of somebody. The stuff I read here about games, good and bad, is the real deal, not just a corporate line.
And almost never does a thread go off-topic. ::)
I'm really interested in seeing some opinions about the new content from people who are deeply into Warhammer 40K or Magic: The Gathering or what-have-you. Is this "starter" content really valuable content that will help get people into those games? Comparing it to the "Best WWII/Vietnam/Korea/etc. Games" lists, which appear to be the only old content that wasn't blasted into oblivion (including stuff that was posted mere weeks ago), I'm not convinced that this is the case. Half-way through the intro to M:TG article you get this gem of a paragraph explaining the most fundamental mechanic of the game:
QuoteHowever, these colour options don't merely provide an aesthetic variety – oh no. Colours are fundamental to the game's operation: you can't play a card unless you pay its cost in mana of the specified colour. Don't have enough green-mana-producing Forest cards on the board? Then that nasty-looking giant spider that's burning a hole in your hand ain't comin' out to play.
If this is any indicator of the general quality of their content, it's a fairly blatant attempt to ape the Rock Paper Shotgun model of games "journalism." I can honestly say I wish them the best of luck, but man.... that front page is just depressing.
I'm not dead, you know.
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on January 27, 2021, 11:54:45 AM
They very quickly deleted my forum thread over there complaining about the change. Well done, fellows, well done.
I deleted your post because you were being an arse.
Joe, with all respect it's not obvious from the About Us page (which I looked at again) that you still have any meaningful say over the current content. You're even listed as the "predecessor" in the new editor's description. My impression was that you sold the site and it's under new ownership, and nothing on the About Us page contradicts this impression.
Since you're here, can you explain the choice to nuke a huge chunk of the old wargaming content? I understand the choice to move forward with a new look and direction, but not the choice to get rid of years of content that people still enjoyed.
Quote from: al_infierno on January 28, 2021, 04:48:58 AM
Since you're here, can you explain the choice to nuke a huge chunk of the old wargaming content? I understand the choice to move forward with a new look and direction, but not the choice to get rid of years of content that people still enjoyed.
It's more the fact that you all are having a cracking time dunking on the site when you could have just asked me about it... like you have! So thank you :)
But yes you are right, I'm no longer involved in Wargamer as a website. Alex (who is really nice, by the way) has taken over as Editor and he's been joined by a new staff writer called Callum.
Your question is extremely valid, and it's the same problem we faced when we migrated Pocket Tactics and shut down Strategy Gamer. As I'm sure you all here noticed, a lot of the old content on Wargamer looked like dirt. Content from the 'pagination' era of Wargamer is missing everything after the first page, and generally speaking previous content migrations were a bit brute force.
The same thing would have happened again, and the content wouldn't have looked any better. The thought honestly made me a bit sad and you have to understand these really old articles weren't really contributing to the overall 'health' of the site anymore. The wayback machine has some stuff, I urged anyone else who was inclined to save articles and whatever else they wanted, but ultimately there is only so much you can do in this situation.
I do grieve the loss of so much content and it wasn't a decision taken lightly.
What really bothers us old timers is the simple loss of what we helped build. We can't help but get emotional about that.
Crusty old man voice:
"I remember the good ol days of wargaming when I had to walk up hill both ways in the snow WITHOUT shoes to play a wargame. We didn't have no new fangled VR or mice to help me complete moves. We had to move our armies with the keyboard :o. Them were the days when wargaming put hair on my chest and men were men and women were too :2funny: :idiot2: :2funny:"
Quote from: al_infierno on January 28, 2021, 12:01:00 AM
I'm really interested in seeing some opinions about the new content from people who are deeply into Warhammer 40K or Magic: The Gathering or what-have-you. Is this "starter" content really valuable content that will help get people into those games? Comparing it to the "Best WWII/Vietnam/Korea/etc. Games" lists, which appear to be the only old content that wasn't blasted into oblivion (including stuff that was posted mere weeks ago), I'm not convinced that this is the case. Half-way through the intro to M:TG article you get this gem of a paragraph explaining the most fundamental mechanic of the game:
QuoteHowever, these colour options don't merely provide an aesthetic variety – oh no. Colours are fundamental to the game's operation: you can't play a card unless you pay its cost in mana of the specified colour. Don't have enough green-mana-producing Forest cards on the board? Then that nasty-looking giant spider that's burning a hole in your hand ain't comin' out to play.
If this is any indicator of the general quality of their content, it's a fairly blatant attempt to ape the Rock Paper Shotgun model of games "journalism." I can honestly say I wish them the best of luck, but man.... that front page is just depressing.
At some point I'm learning Gloomhaven. I have the entire package purchased during the Icehaven (or whatever) Kickstarter. FINALLY, our rennovations are almost all done for the year - so the wife & I can set up and play more tabletop games.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 27, 2021, 04:39:59 PM
The community here is great. My only hope is that we can all move forward together in 2021 and try to bring the focus in the forums back to wargaming. The political stuff has its place, but it ends up dividing us and we are so much stronger when we are focused on the thing that brought us all together in the first place. The gaming!
I am glad to hear this. For me the political stuff has been hard to just ignore.
Because of the heated political discussions, I have seriously considered turning in my grog spurs several times over the last few months.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on January 28, 2021, 11:08:28 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 27, 2021, 04:39:59 PM
The community here is great. My only hope is that we can all move forward together in 2021 and try to bring the focus in the forums back to wargaming. The political stuff has its place, but it ends up dividing us and we are so much stronger when we are focused on the thing that brought us all together in the first place. The gaming!
I am glad to hear this. For me the political stuff has been hard to just ignore.
Because of the heated political discussions, I have seriously considered turning in my grog spurs several times over the last few months.
Please don't. I'm very interested in what you are reading. Most importantly, you helped me identify my Grandfather's WW1 unit. I got the pdf of his Engineering Battalion history and sent it to family members. The "p" stuff is segregated here.
I see no problem with heated political discussion in the, "Political" thread section. At least we're able to 'discuss' and not just 'be quiet' about such things. :coolsmiley:
R&P forums are often a mixed blessing. I'll admit to having been a frequent but very recent poster there, with some of the posts more heated and some of them less. Most people (us included) go to an R&P forum on a website for very different reasons than they go to a wargaming forum on a website. That doesn't mean either is wrong, but like beer and whiskey, each alone can be a lot more satisfying if you try not to mix them together when you drink!
Honestly, I seldom post on the R&P forum and the gaming forum during the same visit. But I do hope folks don't leave the board because of content over on the R&P side. That would be a loss for a community that is already too small and pretty fragmented.
As for wargamer.com, I wish 'em luck in their new incarnation. It's not the incarnation that we were a part of, but like in nature, there's a life-death-rebirth cycle to all of this stuff. Today's Fortnite is tomorrow's Tactics II!!
I think they would have been better off merging Wargamer with Strategy Gamer since there is a big overlap in viewers. Why would anyone looking for fantasy minaitures or MTG cards go to a site called wargamer? However, those people might go to a site named Strategy Gamer.
Stop it with your logic and facts!!
Ugh - Add me to the pile of groggies that is mourning the loss a site I've gotten great enjoyment from over the years. I went up to the newfangled site to establish my own assessment of what was there. I decided to read the Armoured Command 2 review. As others have noted, the content had all the substance of whipped egg whites. On the bottom of the page was an ad for "Wargaming Deals". Under were listed "Pokemon Sword and Shield Decks", "Warhammer 40K Starter Sets", and "Star Wars: Legion Core Set". All can certainly be called "games" with a "war" theme. But it was that moment that it hit me how the term "wargamer" and "wargaming" are much more than the combination of the two words and even non-wargamers understand the niche it applies to (except for wargamer.com now apparently). The new site showed none of the wargaming "grogginess" that had previously earned it regular visits from me over the years.
With much sadness, I closed the browser tab, went into my browser bookmarks, and deleted the wargamer.com link that had been there for YEARS. A sad day as I will not be returning to it... :(
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on January 27, 2021, 11:54:45 AM
They very quickly deleted my forum thread over there complaining about the change. Well done, fellows, well done.
Any website that does this is always worthy of utter contempt.
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on January 27, 2021, 12:28:54 PM
You've got to wonder what the discussion was:
"We're a niche website that caters to a very specific hobby and has a loyal base of longstanding readers. How can we improve the site?"
"I have an idea. Let's abandon our namesake topic, alienate our small audience of loyal users, some of whom have been with us for decades, and fill the site with a bunch of ads and irrelevant articles about completely different hobbies. Because people who want to play fantasy MMOs will definitely come to wargamer.com!"
"Awesome idea! Let's do it!"
"Oh, and don't just archive the old content, but actively go out of your way to delete the 20-plus years of articles that built up the site and ensure no one can ever read it again. And make sure you squelch any discussion or debate on the topic!"
"Got it. That will definitely keep our loyal readers coming back!"
It must have been a discussion held in a room full of MBAs.
This says it all:
https://www.wargamer.com/about-us
Quote from: 88mmkwk on January 29, 2021, 12:01:41 AM
With much sadness, I closed the browser tab, went into my browser bookmarks, and deleted the wargamer.com link that had been there for YEARS. A sad day as I will not be returning to it... :(
Same here!
I have a different viewpoint-
I don't find as much enjoyment in reading about games - an article or written review will only have little effect one me.
I prefer to watch a Lets Play style video on YouTube if I'm trying to understand a game, to form my own impressions.
OR
I'd rather engage in discussions on a message board or Reddit, where the topics are created by users and not articles generated, prioritized, and promoted by editors.
Quote from: Ian C on January 29, 2021, 06:24:52 AM
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on January 27, 2021, 11:54:45 AM
They very quickly deleted my forum thread over there complaining about the change. Well done, fellows, well done.
Any website that does this is always worthy of utter contempt.
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on January 27, 2021, 12:28:54 PM
You've got to wonder what the discussion was:
"We're a niche website that caters to a very specific hobby and has a loyal base of longstanding readers. How can we improve the site?"
"I have an idea. Let's abandon our namesake topic, alienate our small audience of loyal users, some of whom have been with us for decades, and fill the site with a bunch of ads and irrelevant articles about completely different hobbies. Because people who want to play fantasy MMOs will definitely come to wargamer.com!"
"Awesome idea! Let's do it!"
"Oh, and don't just archive the old content, but actively go out of your way to delete the 20-plus years of articles that built up the site and ensure no one can ever read it again. And make sure you squelch any discussion or debate on the topic!"
"Got it. That will definitely keep our loyal readers coming back!"
It must have been a discussion held in a room full of MBAs.
This says it all:
https://www.wargamer.com/about-us
I'm not so sure there's any way to put your finger on what exactly seems to go wrong linguistically these days. It's like being scatter-brained isn't
just a mental problem any more -- its a life-style choice! You too can be meticulously military tactical while planning your strategic war thing during world war II (evidently a real war of some kind -- yes they had tactics even then)! Or just have some tactical cards and military figurines.
I guess it's sort of nice that the word "tactical" seems to refer to some kind of seriousness during your moments of mental clarity. Okay. I'll just go with that for strategic military reasons.
;D
Quote from: bobarossa on January 28, 2021, 09:52:43 PM
I think they would have been better off merging Wargamer with Strategy Gamer since there is a big overlap in viewers. Why would anyone looking for fantasy minaitures or MTG cards go to a site called wargamer? However, those people might go to a site named Strategy Gamer.
I've had an account banned from BGG (Boardgamegeek - specifically, the "Wargame" forum) by simply stating that fantasy miniatures or MTG are NOT considered wargames; that ruffled a few feathers and the overbearing PC mod there decided my comments were inflammatory and not inclusive enough, so *woosh* my account was removed and posts deleted at the snap of a finger.
Somebody on Grogs used to talk about the heavy moderation on BGG. I want to say it was Airboy, but I could be wrong.
Quote from: Toonces on January 29, 2021, 02:01:20 PM
Somebody on Grogs used to talk about the heavy moderation on BGG. I want to say it was Airboy, but I could be wrong.
It has probably only gotten worse. To their credit, I was being overly pedantic when I started quoting the definition of wargaming from von Reisswitz' "Kriegspiel" :P But even then, the Wargamer Forum on BGG is still buried and very hard to access/find without doing a Google search on it.
Seems like wargamers are the black sheep of boardgame/video game society. Maybe I AM in the minority (or just old) but when I think wargame, I do not think dragons and elves and all that stuff.
Quote from: rustyshackleford on January 29, 2021, 02:09:20 PM
Quote from: Toonces on January 29, 2021, 02:01:20 PM
Somebody on Grogs used to talk about the heavy moderation on BGG. I want to say it was Airboy, but I could be wrong.
It has probably only gotten worse. To their credit, I was being overly pedantic when I started quoting the definition of wargaming from von Reisswitz' "Kriegspiel" :P But even then, the Wargamer Forum on BGG is still buried and very hard to access/find without doing a Google search on it.
Seems like wargamers are the black sheep of boardgame/video game society. Maybe I AM in the minority (or just old) but when I think wargame, I do not think dragons and elves and all that stuff.
I'm assuming BGG is Board Game Geek...? I've never had any inclination to go onto their forums so I can't comment on them. But the site is incredibly useful as a source of info on old board wargames I might be contemplating buying on eBay or even directly from the publisher.
BGG=Board Game Geek. Agreed, their website is an incredible resource.
I have only been on their forums a handful of times. My comments on their moderating is purely anecdotal.
Quote from: rustyshackleford on January 29, 2021, 02:09:20 PM
Quote from: Toonces on January 29, 2021, 02:01:20 PM
Somebody on Grogs used to talk about the heavy moderation on BGG. I want to say it was Airboy, but I could be wrong.
It has probably only gotten worse. To their credit, I was being overly pedantic when I started quoting the definition of wargaming from von Reisswitz' "Kriegspiel" :P But even then, the Wargamer Forum on BGG is still buried and very hard to access/find without doing a Google search on it.
Seems like wargamers are the black sheep of boardgame/video game society. Maybe I AM in the minority (or just old) but when I think wargame, I do not think dragons and elves and all that stuff.
Dragons are hard to simulate even in Command Modern Missile thing. I might try to make a dragon mod for Sea Power if I run out of people to play dungeons and dragons with. With whom which to play D&D. 5th Edition! Teiflings! Arcane Trickters!
Toonces - your memory was right. BGG went berserk with PC stuff. I did not know they did a wholesale purge - but it is not surprising.
Still, it is a very good resource for tabletop wargames. The wargame subforum can be very helpful (if you can find it) for answering questions.
I've bought a number of things from their marketplace, and also contracted for games I picked up in person at Origins.
Quote from: MengJiao on January 29, 2021, 11:59:55 AM
I guess it's sort of nice that the word "tactical" seems to refer to some kind of seriousness during your moments of mental clarity. Okay. I'll just go with that for strategic military reasons.
A sig worthy quote, to be sure. :2funny:
Quote from: Gusington on January 27, 2021, 01:09:28 PM
I too am a Wargamer refugee. If Grogheads can offer anything, it is solace to those...displaced. Welcome guys.
I am also an old wargamer forum member. All of a sudden i realised that everyone was gone and i had no idea where until someone mentionned Grogheads! I felt really stupid <:-)
About the R&P. It's really a place you should avoid unless you can take some distance and keep it cool. I like to read there but don't involve myself too much in discussions anymore. I have to say that it helped me to better understand people i don't share the political views and my opinions are more balanced i guess.
^that is some good advice, Anguille.
Quote from: Anguille on January 30, 2021, 04:53:49 AM
Quote from: Gusington on January 27, 2021, 01:09:28 PM
I too am a Wargamer refugee. If Grogheads can offer anything, it is solace to those...displaced. Welcome guys.
I am also an old wargamer forum member. All of a sudden i realised that everyone was gone and i had no idea where until someone mentionned Grogheads! I felt really stupid <:-)
That was my experience as well. I don't remember now who it was but I was informed of this site and have never looked back.
Rayfer and Anguille have always been two of the more chill guys on these (and the older) boards.
And we are honored to have them and all other 'chill guys' here at the Grogs Hotel. :notworthy:
Quote from: Rayfer on January 30, 2021, 07:38:54 AM
Quote from: Anguille on January 30, 2021, 04:53:49 AM
Quote from: Gusington on January 27, 2021, 01:09:28 PM
I too am a Wargamer refugee. If Grogheads can offer anything, it is solace to those...displaced. Welcome guys.
I am also an old wargamer forum member. All of a sudden i realised that everyone was gone and i had no idea where until someone mentionned Grogheads! I felt really stupid <:-)
That was my experience as well. I don't remember now who it was but I was informed of this site and have never looked back.
I wish I would have found out about you guys years ago. Thankful to have finally found where the party is at though :bd:
Welcome, Rusty. Hopefully one day your sister Busty will follow you over here.
I used to be chill.
But then what I thought was cool became old, and what is cool now is scary.
You're still pretty chill. With the right watch, the right alcohol and the right soundtrack your are epic.
Quote from: Toonces on January 30, 2021, 12:54:35 PM
I used to be chill.
But then what I thought was cool became old, and what is cool now is scary.
You can (and do) surf. That is way more cool than most of us.
Quote from: Gusington on January 30, 2021, 12:50:49 PM
Welcome, Rusty. Hopefully one day your sister Busty will follow you over here.
Sorry to disappoint, but no sister Busty! However, I could introduce you to my much older senior citizen sister Crusty O0
Welcome to the club Rusty. I'm so old my avatar name could be, 'Musty'.
Nobody wants to meet his uncle, "Gusty", either. He's not allowed to eat curry in six districts now!
This is the most detailed welcome ever! :DD
Do you also have a relative called 'Fusty' by any chance? (go google translate)
:2funny:
Gusty and Crusty, not sure which is more gross.
Wait...yes I am.
:buck2:
Quote from: hellfish6 on January 27, 2021, 05:55:45 PM
Where are the wargames - be they 4X, political sims, strategic/tactical/operational games or whatever - that have an AI/programmed opponent that can improvise? Nearly every game we play, the AI opponent will make a direct bee-line for whatever passes as an objective.
Nearly all of out wargames are built in these clean, known, well researched contexts with easily exploitable AI/programmed opponents and/or multiplayer systems that are balanced so perfectly, or so perfectly flawed, as to be completely flavorless.
For eons I have been trying to convince wargame makers to make the AI a pluggable module. So that outsiders can program an opponent.
No go. You'd have to reveal too much of the internal workings for their taste. Never mind that every FPS game since the original quake had that ability.