GrogHeads Forum

The long-running threads for BoC and SF haven't been touched since December if I'm reading correctly. Should we bet on which one gets released first? Is there another title that has been gestating even longer than these two that you are excited about?

The delay with Second Front has been frustrating to me for quite some time. It looked to me like it was ready for release ages ago. I was disappointed when Microprose added this title to its catalog as all games that became associated with it seem to get lost in a black hole of endless development resulting in very uncertain delays.

Countdown to The_Admiral riding to Microprose's defense in 3...2...1... :crazy2:

Command Ops 2 Bradley at Bay. I believe its been since 2019, but didn't they change the name midway? So it might be even longer. Don't think its going to drop until they get the patch out.

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on February 17, 2022, 04:07:28 PM
The long-running threads for BoC and SF haven't been touched since December if I'm reading correctly. Should we bet on which one gets released first? Is there another title that has been gestating even longer than these two that you are excited about?

I sometimes wish that devs would just work quietly in their little corner, and not say anything about their game until about a month before release.

Building software is hard, complex work, and a million things can go wrong to stop or delay a project. The less they say ahead of time, the more room they have to maneuver. I always respected JTS for its ability to keep mum about what it was working on. At the end of the day, as a customer, I really don't want to see the 'sausage being made.' 

Agree with all the points made so far.  I think my own vote would be for the B-17 simulator (if that counts as tactical), though that may not be long in the tooth enough to be considered vapor ware....yet.

I can see an advantage in getting out good word of mouth and "buzz" in advance, and certainly it helps to get a good cadre of solid play/beta testers. But I wonder if there isn't a law of diminishing returns whereby the longer development goes on, the more your buzz becomes negative and a detriment to the project rather than an asset.

not tactical but Road to Moscow.

What... no All American: The 82nd Airborne in Normandy?   Projected for 2009   :2funny:

Quote from: smittyohio on February 17, 2022, 05:50:24 PM
What... no All American: The 82nd Airborne in Normandy?   Projected for 2009   :2funny:

This one takes the cake for sure, especially since they're still accepting full-price preorders with a note about how they're updating their engine for compatibility with Windows Vista.  Their explanation for why it's taking so long was basically just blame shifting to Microsoft for having the gall to continue releasing operating systems, which is probably the most hilarious excuse I've ever seen.

Coincidentally this is the one I would likely play the most if it were actually released...

Quote from: GDS_Starfury on February 17, 2022, 05:49:50 PM
not tactical but Road to Moscow.

I held out hope for *years* for that one

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on February 17, 2022, 05:39:01 PM
...
But I wonder if there isn't a law of diminishing returns whereby the longer development goes on, the more your buzz becomes negative and a detriment to the project rather than an asset.

I believe there are diminishing returns to getting the word out too early. I think poster child for putting the word out too early was JMM's journey with the first version of Histwar Les Grognards. Initially, Battlefront was going to publish it. But the publicity got so far ahead of the reality of where JMM was with development, that the resulting delays seemed to poison the opinion's of the customer base, and also his relationship with Battlefront, who eventually dropped their publishing deal. Of course you could probably write an entire book about the triumph and tragedy of the Histwar series, and publicity vs. delays was only one of the game's many problems.   

These days I am anxious about Ezra Sidran's General Staff. Ezra goes back to almost the very beginning of computer wargaming, so I am cheering for him mightily...and he has already captured my wallet for General Staff. But I am concerned that the game is just taking too long. He has already had to change technology "horses" by moving from what he was building it in before (C++ maybe?) to Unity.

My "other" is Steel Tigers. 

I don't think they even showed a screenshot for that though. 

Quote from: ArizonaTank on February 17, 2022, 06:05:08 PM

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on February 17, 2022, 05:39:01 PM
...
But I wonder if there isn't a law of diminishing returns whereby the longer development goes on, the more your buzz becomes negative and a detriment to the project rather than an asset.

I believe there are diminishing returns to getting the word out too early. I think poster child for putting the word out too early was JMM's journey with the first version of Histwar Les Grognards. Initially, Battlefront was going to publish it. But the publicity got so far ahead of the reality of where JMM was with development, that the resulting delays seemed to poison the opinion's of the customer base, and also his relationship with Battlefront, who eventually dropped their publishing deal. Of course you could probably write an entire book about the triumph and tragedy of the Histwar series, and publicity vs. delays was only one of the game's many problems.   

These days I am anxious about Ezra Sidran's General Staff. Ezra goes back to almost the very beginning of computer wargaming, so I am cheering for him mightily...and he has already captured my wallet for General Staff. But I am concerned that the game is just taking too long. He has already had to change technology "horses" by moving from what he was building it in before (C++ maybe?) to Unity.

  Well, its a nice website anyway:
https://www.general-staff.com/about/

Also, Unity uses some version of C (C# maybe?) so going from C++ to Unity might work okay.

Steel Tigers

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 17, 2022, 04:17:39 PM
The delay with Second Front has been frustrating to me for quite some time. It looked to me like it was ready for release ages ago. I was disappointed when Microprose added this title to its catalog as all games that became associated with it seem to get lost in a black hole of endless development resulting in very uncertain delays.

Countdown to The_Admiral riding to Microprose's defense in 3...2...1... :crazy2:

I am sorry, but considering the appearance and name of the said emoticon, am I being branded a nutcase here?
Just want to make sure to know how I should react. Knowing it was edited makes me wonder if the original message was even more offensive?

Besides the fact that games release when ready. Blame the makers for taking their time, not the publisher for allowing us to do so. But by 2022 I'd (foolishly?) expect you to know your luck when a Publisher is willing not to rush you when you say your product isn't ready, opposite to having a Publisher forcing you to release (but it seems you do hold a grudge so I won't engage further...)

Quote from: ArizonaTank on February 17, 2022, 06:05:08 PM

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on February 17, 2022, 05:39:01 PM
...
But I wonder if there isn't a law of diminishing returns whereby the longer development goes on, the more your buzz becomes negative and a detriment to the project rather than an asset.

I believe there are diminishing returns to getting the word out too early. I think poster child for putting the word out too early was JMM's journey with the first version of Histwar Les Grognards. Initially, Battlefront was going to publish it. But the publicity got so far ahead of the reality of where JMM was with development, that the resulting delays seemed to poison the opinion's of the customer base, and also his relationship with Battlefront, who eventually dropped their publishing deal. Of course you could probably write an entire book about the triumph and tragedy of the Histwar series, and publicity vs. delays was only one of the game's many problems.   

These days I am anxious about Ezra Sidran's General Staff. Ezra goes back to almost the very beginning of computer wargaming, so I am cheering for him mightily...and he has already captured my wallet for General Staff. But I am concerned that the game is just taking too long. He has already had to change technology "horses" by moving from what he was building it in before (C++ maybe?) to Unity.

On the question of diminishing returns, it is an interesting regression-worthy question (by regression I mean curves, don't get me wrong  :coolsmiley:). I don't have data to back it up, just my personal empirical experience. I do believe that there's a sweet spot of course, but that most of our games haven't run the course of this one.
You need to communicate early if you want to have any hope to find a publisher. Unlike what one might think, the disappearance of box editions doesn't make these redundant - it is still a hell of a card to play whenever you need to reach out to influencers, which have absolutely taken over most media outlets, at least on the US market (i.e. Germans still do check out online magazines when buying simulations & wargames - crazy!). The word of the game in the business today is what is being branded "discovery". It is your ability to exist and seed leads along the way for end consumers to pick up and follow along a trail. Early call is important, for several reasons (some kinder than others, but das ist war after all):

- You mark your territory: existing out there in an moderately advanced state will discourage others to attempt something along the same lines, especially if you end up with a publisher, which is ultimately good for the competitor too: no reason to go against something too advanced, you will know you'd rather focus your energy on something else instead of spending time & money again & again, and realize a few months before your own coming out that somebody else had been doing something similar all along ;

- You have to communicate early to even kickstart the hype: Killerfish can allow itself to communicate later in the course of their project because they are sitting on a well-defined, recognized audience which has been growing over the course of their three previous titles. Even Triassic, which isn't Killerfish, can expect some return from the implication of its team in the previous Killerfish games. Here, my team and myself have nothing to show for. I can't communicate about myself (considering I am not working in the same industry anyway), our Dev while talented is not known for related breakout titles, our 3D artist is a young chap who's incredibly talented but is taking part to his first game - only my 2D artist had some prior public recognition, but it wasn't for a game either. Shaping your image by establishing the expertise of one's team over time is one way to go. We have everything to prove, I sure hope our weekly updates sort of show we're perhaps ready for this challenge after all.

- Considering the above situation, Publishers besides other things they bring to a project provide you with the sort of visibility you cannot hope to achieve all by yourself too easily, especially if you're busy with something else. I am happy for those who can do without it (see Nebulous for instance, which was a great adventure) but I simply cannot hope that considering the complexity of our gameplay loop. Today we have a number of wishlists which put us in the upper third of the upcoming games on Steam, which by itself is a miracle for the sort of contents we're providing. The brand & the good game release numbers achieved with Highfleet & Carrier Command 2 provide the sort of internal label dynamic that can guarantee me daily numbers most small dev studios can only dream of. So, yes, there is certainly a loss overtime, perhaps a loss of interest from some of the early backers - but even these ones, as long as they have wishlisted us, contribute today through this action to the visibility of our project. It is not a zero-sum affair at all. Right now, I have many times more people wishlisting us every day opposed to the people taking us off their wishlist, and as long as it will remain the case, it's all good. It is, in my regard, the least I can do as to cheer my teammates up and make them realized there are people waiting for the result of their work at the end of our long journey.

- As a by-product of going with a publisher, it has provided us with a sense of security which would be welcome in normal times, but has been invaluable in the Covid era. Some of our team members (I won't elaborate) suffered several family losses in the course of a few months. Myself lost my father in January and I have to care now for my mother. Having one more leg on which to stand while I pursue my passion is nothing to scoff at. If I hadn't ever communicated about the game, and without the tens of thousands of wishlists we currently have in our pocket, I wouldn't feel so sure about the future (or at least, about computing the very existence of this game in my own plans). I have no such worry in the current circumstances.

And about your earlier comment AT regarding the sausage being made, I have met all kinds. People like you who don't want to hear about it before it's ready, people who absolutely want to hear about it all the time and tell us to take our time, and obviously people also who wants to know about it, but tell us it's about time to release. One size cannot fit you all surely. Still, there's an obvious way of satisfying the greater number: we are in an age where you can choose to ignore news, but on the other hand there's no way something not posted would still be accessible to those who want to know. It's all made of compromises I am afraid, always, and might require from you some special help by blocking us all or something, but as IRL - I can always choose to fast in presence of food, but I certainly can't choose to eat when the fridge is empty  ^-^

Sorry for the long messy post, I hope this kinda makes sense :)
Cheers

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on February 17, 2022, 04:07:28 PM
The long-running threads for BoC and SF haven't been touched since December if I'm reading correctly. Should we bet on which one gets released first? Is there another title that has been gestating even longer than these two that you are excited about?

We've been hard at work on BoC.  You can alway find the most up to date stuff on our Youtube channel here.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6D1rHMFvqsVM1ICFVQFXOA

I can tell you we are well along in our play testing.

Steel Tigers

I think it's vaporware. Not a single screen shot...nada.

Quote from: The_Admiral on February 17, 2022, 10:16:35 PM

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 17, 2022, 04:17:39 PM
The delay with Second Front has been frustrating to me for quite some time. It looked to me like it was ready for release ages ago. I was disappointed when Microprose added this title to its catalog as all games that became associated with it seem to get lost in a black hole of endless development resulting in very uncertain delays.

Countdown to The_Admiral riding to Microprose's defense in 3...2...1... :crazy2:

I am sorry, but considering the appearance and name of the said emoticon, am I being branded a nutcase here?
Just want to make sure to know how I should react. Knowing it was edited makes me wonder if the original message was even more offensive?

Besides the fact that games release when ready. Blame the makers for taking their time, not the publisher for allowing us to do so. But by 2022 I'd (foolishly?) expect you to know your luck when a Publisher is willing not to rush you when you say your product isn't ready, opposite to having a Publisher forcing you to release (but it seems you do hold a grudge so I won't engage further...)

You need to relax and get a sense of humor. It was edited for spelling. In any event, here you are.

Your reaction to the concerns I have expressed about microprose has been extremely bizarre and overly hostile from the very get go. I can't figure it out, especially since you're not an official spokesman for the publisher. If you were, I'd say you're a lousy one. On the contrary, you're a fantastic spokesman for your own title so you should probably just stay in your lane. There, maybe I've given you something to actually be offended about.  :smitten:

Seriously though, you're the only developer who seems to have ever gotten offended by fair criticism of a publisher with an MO for delaying games as I perceive it. I'm entitled to my opinion and it's unclear why you struggle with it so and have apparently taken it so personally.

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 18, 2022, 03:41:09 AM

Quote from: The_Admiral on February 17, 2022, 10:16:35 PM

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 17, 2022, 04:17:39 PM
The delay with Second Front has been frustrating to me for quite some time. It looked to me like it was ready for release ages ago. I was disappointed when Microprose added this title to its catalog as all games that became associated with it seem to get lost in a black hole of endless development resulting in very uncertain delays.

Countdown to The_Admiral riding to Microprose's defense in 3...2...1... :crazy2:

I am sorry, but considering the appearance and name of the said emoticon, am I being branded a nutcase here?
Just want to make sure to know how I should react. Knowing it was edited makes me wonder if the original message was even more offensive?

Besides the fact that games release when ready. Blame the makers for taking their time, not the publisher for allowing us to do so. But by 2022 I'd (foolishly?) expect you to know your luck when a Publisher is willing not to rush you when you say your product isn't ready, opposite to having a Publisher forcing you to release (but it seems you do hold a grudge so I won't engage further...)

You need to relax and get a sense of humor. It was edited for spelling. In any event, here you are.

Your reaction to the concerns I have expressed about microprose has been extremely bizarre and overly hostile from the very get go. I can't figure it out, especially since you're not an official spokesman for the publisher. If you were, I'd say you're a lousy one. On the contrary, you're a fantastic spokesman for your own title so you should probably just stay in your lane. There, maybe I've given you something to actually be offended about.  :smitten:

Seriously though, you're the only developer who seems to have ever gotten offended by fair criticism of a publisher with an MO for delaying games as I perceive it. I'm entitled to my opinion and it's unclear why you struggle with it so and have apparently taken it so personally.

They are my publishing partner, they stand by me, I stand by them. It is a matter of contract and friendship both. That you wouldn't understand the meaning of such a bond still remains some sort of a mystery to me, to the point if I wonder if you're for real - or of good faith, but that I have little doubt by now.

Their reputation is in my lap, and so is mine in theirs. Whenever a cheap shot is taken at them, it is taken at us too - like if we were some sort of dummies for having signed with them to begin with. My reaction is not "bizarre and overly hostile" in essence, it is the result of being flabbergasted at the natural entitlement you feel whenever you write a cheap hit piece aimed at "them". You have strictly no idea of how these things work between us and them, and by us I mean all the dev teams involved - some of which I gladly introduced them to so as to share the love and create an ecosystem, a community of like-minded studios under one roof. Studios which can now develop their games at their own pace (and, if needed, when needed, can postpone a planned release), are not pressured into doing things they don't like by their Publisher, enjoy a satisfying revenue split and can take part to the adventure of reviving a label that saw us grow up, from the inside. You presume things, find them guilty of the worst acts. while you strictly have no idea of who does what, nor are willing to listen to the long explanations these discussions have led to. You seem in need to be confirmed in your bad blood, because hey, why would you be wrong about us all, even though you have zero element to judge, right? Yeah, right. You're asking me about my motivations, here they are - what are yours, I wonder?

If I need to relax and get a sense of humor, so be it.  If you find joy in disparaging the work of others, and it helps with your health and your mood, good for you - then perhaps find yourself some other pinata, because I am not sharing your taste for that kind of venom. Tease somebody else and leave me out of this sickening habit of yours. Every time you post that mean libel coated in irony and bitterness, whenever you're harming their reputation, and you're harming ours too. Stay in your lane by being fair and talking about what you actually know, and I'll stay in mine by not having to react to another round of fake news where my name is associated with a deranged emoticon.

On the other hand, you want to know more? I am open for that. Just not for yet another invitation to yet another Lidl kangaroo court of yours. At the end of the day it's just mean... Gratuitous and mean to all those involved, from somebody who has actually - absolutely - zero stake in our lives, projects, worries and history, besides enjoying himself at hurting things we care about and try nevertheless to build from the ground up.

I have never said anything so beyond the pale to illicit this kind of a reaction and such a personal attack. Go look, and show me what has been so unreasonable, egregious and offensive. I have simply commented on a series of games that seemed to be making excellent and steady progress and which then seemed to disappear into a black hole of development with very slow progress after joining microprose. Yes, it's a mystery why this is an opinion that you find so intolerable and why it places your "reputation" or theirs at such stake.

You've explained that this cycle of prolonged development is a wonderful thing because it permits developers to take their time. Great, good on you. I happen to think it's a dangerous business model. Deadlines are important and people should be pushed to produce.  If the process takes too long, you may miss a window, other titles come out and customers move on. That's the risk I guess when you fund developers and then let them call the shots and set their own time frames.

I have taken no cheap shots or written any "hit pieces" and your claim is absurd. I have not accused anyone of anything or suggested that anyone is guilty of any deleterious acts. I have not "disparaged" the work of anyone. I challenge you to demonstrate otherwise. I really have no idea what you are talking about and contract or not, I think your ad hominem statements are very unprofessional. I have simply commented on my observation that microprose games seem to take an inordinate amount of time to be released and that information during that process at times has been vague and ambiguous. All of my comments on this have come from a place of love, excitement and eagerness, not entitlement, as you claim. I want nothing more than for these games to be released, for them to be great and for everyone to succeed.

I apologize that I have miscommunicated my intentions for them to have caused such umbrage and vitriol from you.

Quote from: The_Admiral on February 17, 2022, 10:51:24 PM

Quote from: MAD
But I wonder if there isn't a law of diminishing returns whereby the longer development goes on, the more your buzz becomes negative and a detriment to the project rather than an asset.

On the question of diminishing returns, it is an interesting regression-worthy question (by regression I mean curves, don't get me wrong  :coolsmiley:). I don't have data to back it up, just my personal empirical experience. I do believe that there's a sweet spot of course, but that most of our games haven't run the course of this one.

You need to communicate early if you want to have any hope to find a publisher. Unlike what one might think, the disappearance of box editions doesn't make these redundant - it is still a hell of a card to play whenever you need to reach out to influencers, which have absolutely taken over most media outlets, at least on the US market (i.e. Germans still do check out online magazines when buying simulations & wargames - crazy!). The word of the game in the business today is what is being branded "discovery". It is your ability to exist and seed leads along the way for end consumers to pick up and follow along a trail. Early call is important, for several reasons (some kinder than others, but das ist war after all):

- You mark your territory: existing out there in an moderately advanced state will discourage others to attempt something along the same lines, especially if you end up with a publisher, which is ultimately good for the competitor too: no reason to go against something too advanced, you will know you'd rather focus your energy on something else instead of spending time & money again & again, and realize a few months before your own coming out that somebody else had been doing something similar all along ;

- You have to communicate early to even kickstart the hype: Killerfish can allow itself to communicate later in the course of their project because they are sitting on a well-defined, recognized audience which has been growing over the course of their three previous titles. Even Triassic, which isn't Killerfish, can expect some return from the implication of its team in the previous Killerfish games. Here, my team and myself have nothing to show for. I can't communicate about myself (considering I am not working in the same industry anyway), our Dev while talented is not known for related breakout titles, our 3D artist is a young chap who's incredibly talented but is taking part to his first game - only my 2D artist had some prior public recognition, but it wasn't for a game either. Shaping your image by establishing the expertise of one's team over time is one way to go. We have everything to prove, I sure hope our weekly updates sort of show we're perhaps ready for this challenge after all.

- Considering the above situation, Publishers besides other things they bring to a project provide you with the sort of visibility you cannot hope to achieve all by yourself too easily, especially if you're busy with something else. I am happy for those who can do without it (see Nebulous for instance, which was a great adventure) but I simply cannot hope that considering the complexity of our gameplay loop. Today we have a number of wishlists which put us in the upper third of the upcoming games on Steam, which by itself is a miracle for the sort of contents we're providing. The brand & the good game release numbers achieved with Highfleet & Carrier Command 2 provide the sort of internal label dynamic that can guarantee me daily numbers most small dev studios can only dream of. So, yes, there is certainly a loss overtime, perhaps a loss of interest from some of the early backers - but even these ones, as long as they have wishlisted us, contribute today through this action to the visibility of our project. It is not a zero-sum affair at all. Right now, I have many times more people wishlisting us every day opposed to the people taking us off their wishlist, and as long as it will remain the case, it's all good. It is, in my regard, the least I can do as to cheer my teammates up and make them realized there are people waiting for the result of their work at the end of our long journey.

- As a by-product of going with a publisher, it has provided us with a sense of security which would be welcome in normal times, but has been invaluable in the Covid era. Some of our team members (I won't elaborate) suffered several family losses in the course of a few months. Myself lost my father in January and I have to care now for my mother. Having one more leg on which to stand while I pursue my passion is nothing to scoff at. If I hadn't ever communicated about the game, and without the tens of thousands of wishlists we currently have in our pocket, I wouldn't feel so sure about the future (or at least, about computing the very existence of this game in my own plans). I have no such worry in the current circumstances.

And about your earlier comment AT regarding the sausage being made, I have met all kinds. People like you who don't want to hear about it before it's ready, people who absolutely want to hear about it all the time and tell us to take our time, and obviously people also who wants to know about it, but tell us it's about time to release. One size cannot fit you all surely. Still, there's an obvious way of satisfying the greater number: we are in an age where you can choose to ignore news, but on the other hand there's no way something not posted would still be accessible to those who want to know. It's all made of compromises I am afraid, always, and might require from you some special help by blocking us all or something, but as IRL - I can always choose to fast in presence of food, but I certainly can't choose to eat when the fridge is empty  ^-^

Sorry for the long messy post, I hope this kinda makes sense :)
Cheers

I appreciate the insider's view.  I've never designed a computer game (well, not since 1986 when I was bashing text games out in BASIC) but I've been involved in some other creative publishing endeavours. I *think* I can relate to the desire to get the word out - for me, it's always a fear that I'm going to get a great idea, and by the time I've finished it (whether it is a scenario for a board or computer wargame, or a book or a magazine article or a YouTube video) someone else would have "beaten me".  It's probably an irrational fear since I've never been "scooped", mostly because my interests are rather obscure. But the instinct to announce early is there, as you say, to stake a claim. I do also, of course, have the experience of waiting for publishers. I had an article in S&T that sat in their slush pile for I think three years. And when they finally published it they got my name wrong in the credits. :-)  For me, it is a lark to make some spare coin, my hat's off to those like you who have real investments (financial and emotional) in work they have to put in the hands of publishers that will affect their livelihoods.

Steel Tigers

Quote from: GDS_Starfury on February 17, 2022, 05:49:50 PM
not tactical but Road to Moscow.

Wow - that's an old one - has it been 20 years yet?

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on February 18, 2022, 11:49:12 AM

Quote from: The_Admiral on February 17, 2022, 10:51:24 PM

Quote from: MAD
But I wonder if there isn't a law of diminishing returns whereby the longer development goes on, the more your buzz becomes negative and a detriment to the project rather than an asset.

On the question of diminishing returns, it is an interesting regression-worthy question (by regression I mean curves, don't get me wrong  :coolsmiley:). I don't have data to back it up, just my personal empirical experience. I do believe that there's a sweet spot of course, but that most of our games haven't run the course of this one.

You need to communicate early if you want to have any hope to find a publisher. Unlike what one might think, the disappearance of box editions doesn't make these redundant - it is still a hell of a card to play whenever you need to reach out to influencers, which have absolutely taken over most media outlets, at least on the US market (i.e. Germans still do check out online magazines when buying simulations & wargames - crazy!). The word of the game in the business today is what is being branded "discovery". It is your ability to exist and seed leads along the way for end consumers to pick up and follow along a trail. Early call is important, for several reasons (some kinder than others, but das ist war after all):

- You mark your territory: existing out there in an moderately advanced state will discourage others to attempt something along the same lines, especially if you end up with a publisher, which is ultimately good for the competitor too: no reason to go against something too advanced, you will know you'd rather focus your energy on something else instead of spending time & money again & again, and realize a few months before your own coming out that somebody else had been doing something similar all along ;

- You have to communicate early to even kickstart the hype: Killerfish can allow itself to communicate later in the course of their project because they are sitting on a well-defined, recognized audience which has been growing over the course of their three previous titles. Even Triassic, which isn't Killerfish, can expect some return from the implication of its team in the previous Killerfish games. Here, my team and myself have nothing to show for. I can't communicate about myself (considering I am not working in the same industry anyway), our Dev while talented is not known for related breakout titles, our 3D artist is a young chap who's incredibly talented but is taking part to his first game - only my 2D artist had some prior public recognition, but it wasn't for a game either. Shaping your image by establishing the expertise of one's team over time is one way to go. We have everything to prove, I sure hope our weekly updates sort of show we're perhaps ready for this challenge after all.

- Considering the above situation, Publishers besides other things they bring to a project provide you with the sort of visibility you cannot hope to achieve all by yourself too easily, especially if you're busy with something else. I am happy for those who can do without it (see Nebulous for instance, which was a great adventure) but I simply cannot hope that considering the complexity of our gameplay loop. Today we have a number of wishlists which put us in the upper third of the upcoming games on Steam, which by itself is a miracle for the sort of contents we're providing. The brand & the good game release numbers achieved with Highfleet & Carrier Command 2 provide the sort of internal label dynamic that can guarantee me daily numbers most small dev studios can only dream of. So, yes, there is certainly a loss overtime, perhaps a loss of interest from some of the early backers - but even these ones, as long as they have wishlisted us, contribute today through this action to the visibility of our project. It is not a zero-sum affair at all. Right now, I have many times more people wishlisting us every day opposed to the people taking us off their wishlist, and as long as it will remain the case, it's all good. It is, in my regard, the least I can do as to cheer my teammates up and make them realized there are people waiting for the result of their work at the end of our long journey.

- As a by-product of going with a publisher, it has provided us with a sense of security which would be welcome in normal times, but has been invaluable in the Covid era. Some of our team members (I won't elaborate) suffered several family losses in the course of a few months. Myself lost my father in January and I have to care now for my mother. Having one more leg on which to stand while I pursue my passion is nothing to scoff at. If I hadn't ever communicated about the game, and without the tens of thousands of wishlists we currently have in our pocket, I wouldn't feel so sure about the future (or at least, about computing the very existence of this game in my own plans). I have no such worry in the current circumstances.

And about your earlier comment AT regarding the sausage being made, I have met all kinds. People like you who don't want to hear about it before it's ready, people who absolutely want to hear about it all the time and tell us to take our time, and obviously people also who wants to know about it, but tell us it's about time to release. One size cannot fit you all surely. Still, there's an obvious way of satisfying the greater number: we are in an age where you can choose to ignore news, but on the other hand there's no way something not posted would still be accessible to those who want to know. It's all made of compromises I am afraid, always, and might require from you some special help by blocking us all or something, but as IRL - I can always choose to fast in presence of food, but I certainly can't choose to eat when the fridge is empty  ^-^

Sorry for the long messy post, I hope this kinda makes sense :)
Cheers

I appreciate the insider's view.  I've never designed a computer game (well, not since 1986 when I was bashing text games out in BASIC) but I've been involved in some other creative publishing endeavours. I *think* I can relate to the desire to get the word out - for me, it's always a fear that I'm going to get a great idea, and by the time I've finished it (whether it is a scenario for a board or computer wargame, or a book or a magazine article or a YouTube video) someone else would have "beaten me".  It's probably an irrational fear since I've never been "scooped", mostly because my interests are rather obscure. But the instinct to announce early is there, as you say, to stake a claim. I do also, of course, have the experience of waiting for publishers. I had an article in S&T that sat in their slush pile for I think three years. And when they finally published it they got my name wrong in the credits. :-)  For me, it is a lark to make some spare coin, my hat's off to those like you who have real investments (financial and emotional) in work they have to put in the hands of publishers that will affect their livelihoods.

This is an interesting area. I recently listened to a podcast by Gene of GMT (for those of you who don't know, I'd guess the USA's & thus prob. the worlds largest board game publisher) who discussed this issue. Far from ideas etc. being threatened & possibly "stolen" by publishing early they find they are enhanced by additional input, indeed some of their most successful series (ie: COIN) have exploded after the concepts have been thrown open for independent developers to enhance & improve, with a multitude of new games. This may not be directly comparable to PC games, but it maybe does show that some of the perceived risks of a more open approach to game development are misguided.

Quote from: The_Admiral on February 17, 2022, 10:51:24 PM

Quote from: ArizonaTank on February 17, 2022, 06:05:08 PM

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on February 17, 2022, 05:39:01 PM
...
But I wonder if there isn't a law of diminishing returns whereby the longer development goes on, the more your buzz becomes negative and a detriment to the project rather than an asset.

I believe there are diminishing returns to getting the word out too early. I think poster child for putting the word out too early was JMM's journey with the first version of Histwar Les Grognards. Initially, Battlefront was going to publish it. But the publicity got so far ahead of the reality of where JMM was with development, that the resulting delays seemed to poison the opinion's of the customer base, and also his relationship with Battlefront, who eventually dropped their publishing deal. Of course you could probably write an entire book about the triumph and tragedy of the Histwar series, and publicity vs. delays was only one of the game's many problems.   

These days I am anxious about Ezra Sidran's General Staff. Ezra goes back to almost the very beginning of computer wargaming, so I am cheering for him mightily...and he has already captured my wallet for General Staff. But I am concerned that the game is just taking too long. He has already had to change technology "horses" by moving from what he was building it in before (C++ maybe?) to Unity.

On the question of diminishing returns, it is an interesting regression-worthy question (by regression I mean curves, don't get me wrong  :coolsmiley:). I don't have data to back it up, just my personal empirical experience. I do believe that there's a sweet spot of course, but that most of our games haven't run the course of this one.
You need to communicate early if you want to have any hope to find a publisher. Unlike what one might think, the disappearance of box editions doesn't make these redundant - it is still a hell of a card to play whenever you need to reach out to influencers, which have absolutely taken over most media outlets, at least on the US market (i.e. Germans still do check out online magazines when buying simulations & wargames - crazy!). The word of the game in the business today is what is being branded "discovery". It is your ability to exist and seed leads along the way for end consumers to pick up and follow along a trail. Early call is important, for several reasons (some kinder than others, but das ist war after all):

- You mark your territory: existing out there in an moderately advanced state will discourage others to attempt something along the same lines, especially if you end up with a publisher, which is ultimately good for the competitor too: no reason to go against something too advanced, you will know you'd rather focus your energy on something else instead of spending time & money again & again, and realize a few months before your own coming out that somebody else had been doing something similar all along ;

- You have to communicate early to even kickstart the hype: Killerfish can allow itself to communicate later in the course of their project because they are sitting on a well-defined, recognized audience which has been growing over the course of their three previous titles. Even Triassic, which isn't Killerfish, can expect some return from the implication of its team in the previous Killerfish games. Here, my team and myself have nothing to show for. I can't communicate about myself (considering I am not working in the same industry anyway), our Dev while talented is not known for related breakout titles, our 3D artist is a young chap who's incredibly talented but is taking part to his first game - only my 2D artist had some prior public recognition, but it wasn't for a game either. Shaping your image by establishing the expertise of one's team over time is one way to go. We have everything to prove, I sure hope our weekly updates sort of show we're perhaps ready for this challenge after all.

- Considering the above situation, Publishers besides other things they bring to a project provide you with the sort of visibility you cannot hope to achieve all by yourself too easily, especially if you're busy with something else. I am happy for those who can do without it (see Nebulous for instance, which was a great adventure) but I simply cannot hope that considering the complexity of our gameplay loop. Today we have a number of wishlists which put us in the upper third of the upcoming games on Steam, which by itself is a miracle for the sort of contents we're providing. The brand & the good game release numbers achieved with Highfleet & Carrier Command 2 provide the sort of internal label dynamic that can guarantee me daily numbers most small dev studios can only dream of. So, yes, there is certainly a loss overtime, perhaps a loss of interest from some of the early backers - but even these ones, as long as they have wishlisted us, contribute today through this action to the visibility of our project. It is not a zero-sum affair at all. Right now, I have many times more people wishlisting us every day opposed to the people taking us off their wishlist, and as long as it will remain the case, it's all good. It is, in my regard, the least I can do as to cheer my teammates up and make them realized there are people waiting for the result of their work at the end of our long journey.

- As a by-product of going with a publisher, it has provided us with a sense of security which would be welcome in normal times, but has been invaluable in the Covid era. Some of our team members (I won't elaborate) suffered several family losses in the course of a few months. Myself lost my father in January and I have to care now for my mother. Having one more leg on which to stand while I pursue my passion is nothing to scoff at. If I hadn't ever communicated about the game, and without the tens of thousands of wishlists we currently have in our pocket, I wouldn't feel so sure about the future (or at least, about computing the very existence of this game in my own plans). I have no such worry in the current circumstances.

And about your earlier comment AT regarding the sausage being made, I have met all kinds. People like you who don't want to hear about it before it's ready, people who absolutely want to hear about it all the time and tell us to take our time, and obviously people also who wants to know about it, but tell us it's about time to release. One size cannot fit you all surely. Still, there's an obvious way of satisfying the greater number: we are in an age where you can choose to ignore news, but on the other hand there's no way something not posted would still be accessible to those who want to know. It's all made of compromises I am afraid, always, and might require from you some special help by blocking us all or something, but as IRL - I can always choose to fast in presence of food, but I certainly can't choose to eat when the fridge is empty  ^-^

Sorry for the long messy post, I hope this kinda makes sense :)
Cheers

Great post, as one of the principals at WDS (we now own the JTS catalogue), I can completely relate to many of the insights shown here. Publishers give developers both a financial and a marketing/awareness reach. We were fortunate that we inherited close to a 100 hundred title catalogue and the reputation of a multi-decade publisher, reducing the need to find a 'niche' as well as an ongoing cash flow. Most developers are less fortunate.

The other interesting point that we have also been struggling with is when to announce a title. We have moved away from the John Tiller radio silence but have been debating how much view of the pipeline should be given. Ultimately, as mentioned, there is no right answer, though internal necessity may dictate timing.

All in all, my experience with industry generally is mirrored by The_Admiral.

Quote from: Phantom on February 18, 2022, 02:21:39 PM

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on February 18, 2022, 11:49:12 AM

I appreciate the insider's view.  I've never designed a computer game (well, not since 1986 when I was bashing text games out in BASIC) but I've been involved in some other creative publishing endeavours. I *think* I can relate to the desire to get the word out - for me, it's always a fear that I'm going to get a great idea, and by the time I've finished it (whether it is a scenario for a board or computer wargame, or a book or a magazine article or a YouTube video) someone else would have "beaten me".  It's probably an irrational fear since I've never been "scooped", mostly because my interests are rather obscure. But the instinct to announce early is there, as you say, to stake a claim. I do also, of course, have the experience of waiting for publishers. I had an article in S&T that sat in their slush pile for I think three years. And when they finally published it they got my name wrong in the credits. :-)  For me, it is a lark to make some spare coin, my hat's off to those like you who have real investments (financial and emotional) in work they have to put in the hands of publishers that will affect their livelihoods.

This is an interesting area. I recently listened to a podcast by Gene of GMT (for those of you who don't know, I'd guess the USA's & thus prob. the worlds largest board game publisher) who discussed this issue. Far from ideas etc. being threatened & possibly "stolen" by publishing early they find they are enhanced by additional input, indeed some of their most successful series (ie: COIN) have exploded after the concepts have been thrown open for independent developers to enhance & improve, with a multitude of new games. This may not be directly comparable to PC games, but it maybe does show that some of the perceived risks of a more open approach to game development are misguided.

I think the comparison still stands to a point. Yes indeed I would definitely believe good old board games to be more susceptible to new ideas & added content considering the agency of the player (in comparison to the power of the system) is facilitated. You can only add a new rule and a mechanic, add a few counters, add new cards and have the player integrate them in the flow of gameplay. It helps with experimentation & affects design much more deeply than it would in a computer game environment. Still, what you describe is a logic that has been observed with some games in early access, which sometimes went to great lengths to change things, to the point of effectively modifying the core gameplay loop.

As for getting the word out, I don't want to make it sound like opportunistic or conceited either - it is more of a needed perk in the survival toolbox when it comes to making sure the morale is there and all the way up at the beginning of the trek. Of course this (the actual project, beyond its design phase) did not start without some thorough market research (if I can call a guy and his computer googling around that, of course  ::) ). Back in the day I remember writing a couple messages to Killerfish trying to know what they were up to, so as not to waste our energy if I was to embark on a journey with 3 other people who would rely on my management. It just so happen that they never got back to me (or at least not this way, as I got to know through other means down the road those who are now making Sea Power - aka "Killerfish-in-exile" like they'd say up there in Clan Space) - but it's fine. In absence of news in regard of the development of War on the Sea, we didn't get discouraged early on, and considering we are all coming up with very different games, on very different timetables despite a common broader topic, it appears it is all for the best eventually.

Quote from: Strela on February 18, 2022, 03:06:58 PM

Great post, as one of the principals at WDS (we now own the JTS catalogue), I can completely relate to many of the insights shown here. Publishers give developers both a financial and a marketing/awareness reach. We were fortunate that we inherited close to a 100 hundred title catalogue and the reputation of a multi-decade publisher, reducing the need to find a 'niche' as well as an ongoing cash flow. Most developers are less fortunate.

The other interesting point that we have also been struggling with is when to announce a title. We have moved away from the John Tiller radio silence but have been debating how much view of the pipeline should be given. Ultimately, as mentioned, there is no right answer, though internal necessity may dictate timing.

All in all, my experience with industry generally is mirrored by The_Admiral.

Cheers mate, thanks O0
And a very good summary of the conundrums at hand too!

Well - perhaps the somewhat inflammatory title given by the OP doesn't help.

I wouldn't consider either BOC or SF to be "Vapour Ware" - stupid title for the post in my opinion.

Looking forward to both games and am sure they will arrive at some point - this stuff just takes a while.

Personally I dont see it makes a difference - they could not announce anything and only when it is certain to arrive - or can tell us it is coming and it takes longer than hoped.

The former is unhelpful as it it gives the appearance of a niche that is dead - the latter just means having a little patience when it doesnt arrive as planned. I mean its adults waiting for this stuff not 5 year olds who throw their toys out of the pram when they dont get what they want when they want it.

Personally I am for as much visibility as possible - and it arrives when it arrives - really dont see the problem with that.

Quote from: Zulu1966 on February 19, 2022, 06:56:04 AM
Well - perhaps the somewhat inflammatory title given by the OP doesn't help.

I wouldn't consider either BOC or SF to be "Vapour Ware" - stupid title for the post in my opinion.

software or hardware that has been advertised but is not yet available to buy, either because it is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed.

Sorry if the truth inflamed you. You can buy creams for that online.

Ok guys, let's all take a little breather and lower the temperature in this thread.

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on February 19, 2022, 02:19:05 PM

Quote from: Zulu1966 on February 19, 2022, 06:56:04 AM
Well - perhaps the somewhat inflammatory title given by the OP doesn't help.

I wouldn't consider either BOC or SF to be "Vapour Ware" - stupid title for the post in my opinion.

software or hardware that has been advertised but is not yet available to buy, either because it is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed.

Sorry if the truth inflamed you. You can buy creams for that online.

Not quite what Vapour ware means though is it.

that describes software which is in production. I think you know full well that vapour ware means it is not likely to ever appear - and your application to both the games you mention in your first post is grossly unfair.

NERD FIGHT!  <:-)

Quote from: Zulu1966 on February 19, 2022, 04:03:30 PM

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on February 19, 2022, 02:19:05 PM

Quote from: Zulu1966 on February 19, 2022, 06:56:04 AM
Well - perhaps the somewhat inflammatory title given by the OP doesn't help.

I wouldn't consider either BOC or SF to be "Vapour Ware" - stupid title for the post in my opinion.

software or hardware that has been advertised but is not yet available to buy, either because it is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed.

Sorry if the truth inflamed you. You can buy creams for that online.

Not quite what Vapour ware means though is it.

that describes software which is in production. I think you know full well that vapour ware means it is not likely to ever appear - and your application to both the games you mention in your first post is grossly unfair.

Yep.  It's easy to sit at a keyboard and trot out a "humorous" comment about how long it's taking someone to develop a game.  Personally I don't have the skill or the determination to embark on such a project, so I won't have a go at those who do - no matter how well it turns out (in my opinion) or how long it takes.