Favorite Tactical-Level WWII Vapor Ware?

[Michael Dorosh]

The long-running threads for BoC and SF haven't been touched since December if I'm reading correctly. Should we bet on which one gets released first? Is there another title that has been gestating even longer than these two that you are excited about?

[Jarhead0331]

The delay with Second Front has been frustrating to me for quite some time. It looked to me like it was ready for release ages ago. I was disappointed when Microprose added this title to its catalog as all games that became associated with it seem to get lost in a black hole of endless development resulting in very uncertain delays.

Countdown to The_Admiral riding to Microprose's defense in 3...2...1...

[-budd-]

Command Ops 2 Bradley at Bay. I believe its been since 2019, but didn't they change the name midway? So it might be even longer. Don't think its going to drop until they get the patch out.

[ArizonaTank]

The long-running threads for BoC and SF haven't been touched since December if I'm reading correctly. Should we bet on which one gets released first? Is there another title that has been gestating even longer than these two that you are excited about?

I sometimes wish that devs would just work quietly in their little corner, and not say anything about their game until about a month before release.

Building software is hard, complex work, and a million things can go wrong to stop or delay a project. The less they say ahead of time, the more room they have to maneuver. I always respected JTS for its ability to keep mum about what it was working on. At the end of the day, as a customer, I really don't want to see the 'sausage being made.' 

[Michael Dorosh]

Agree with all the points made so far.  I think my own vote would be for the B-17 simulator (if that counts as tactical), though that may not be long in the tooth enough to be considered vapor ware....yet.

I can see an advantage in getting out good word of mouth and "buzz" in advance, and certainly it helps to get a good cadre of solid play/beta testers. But I wonder if there isn't a law of diminishing returns whereby the longer development goes on, the more your buzz becomes negative and a detriment to the project rather than an asset.

[GDS_Starfury]

not tactical but Road to Moscow.

[smittyohio]

What... no All American: The 82nd Airborne in Normandy?   Projected for 2009   

[al_infierno]

What... no All American: The 82nd Airborne in Normandy?   Projected for 2009   

This one takes the cake for sure, especially since they're still accepting full-price preorders with a note about how they're updating their engine for compatibility with Windows Vista.  Their explanation for why it's taking so long was basically just blame shifting to Microsoft for having the gall to continue releasing operating systems, which is probably the most hilarious excuse I've ever seen.

Coincidentally this is the one I would likely play the most if it were actually released...

[smittyohio]

not tactical but Road to Moscow.

I held out hope for *years* for that one

[ArizonaTank]

...
But I wonder if there isn't a law of diminishing returns whereby the longer development goes on, the more your buzz becomes negative and a detriment to the project rather than an asset.

I believe there are diminishing returns to getting the word out too early. I think poster child for putting the word out too early was JMM's journey with the first version of Histwar Les Grognards. Initially, Battlefront was going to publish it. But the publicity got so far ahead of the reality of where JMM was with development, that the resulting delays seemed to poison the opinion's of the customer base, and also his relationship with Battlefront, who eventually dropped their publishing deal. Of course you could probably write an entire book about the triumph and tragedy of the Histwar series, and publicity vs. delays was only one of the game's many problems.   

These days I am anxious about Ezra Sidran's General Staff. Ezra goes back to almost the very beginning of computer wargaming, so I am cheering for him mightily...and he has already captured my wallet for General Staff. But I am concerned that the game is just taking too long. He has already had to change technology "horses" by moving from what he was building it in before (C++ maybe?) to Unity.

[SirAndrewD]

My "other" is Steel Tigers. 

I don't think they even showed a screenshot for that though. 

[MengJiao]

...
But I wonder if there isn't a law of diminishing returns whereby the longer development goes on, the more your buzz becomes negative and a detriment to the project rather than an asset.

I believe there are diminishing returns to getting the word out too early. I think poster child for putting the word out too early was JMM's journey with the first version of Histwar Les Grognards. Initially, Battlefront was going to publish it. But the publicity got so far ahead of the reality of where JMM was with development, that the resulting delays seemed to poison the opinion's of the customer base, and also his relationship with Battlefront, who eventually dropped their publishing deal. Of course you could probably write an entire book about the triumph and tragedy of the Histwar series, and publicity vs. delays was only one of the game's many problems.   

These days I am anxious about Ezra Sidran's General Staff. Ezra goes back to almost the very beginning of computer wargaming, so I am cheering for him mightily...and he has already captured my wallet for General Staff. But I am concerned that the game is just taking too long. He has already had to change technology "horses" by moving from what he was building it in before (C++ maybe?) to Unity.

  Well, its a nice website anyway:
https://www.general-staff.com/about/

Also, Unity uses some version of C (C# maybe?) so going from C++ to Unity might work okay.

[Hot lead and dirty talk!]

Steel Tigers

[The_Admiral]

The delay with Second Front has been frustrating to me for quite some time. It looked to me like it was ready for release ages ago. I was disappointed when Microprose added this title to its catalog as all games that became associated with it seem to get lost in a black hole of endless development resulting in very uncertain delays.

Countdown to The_Admiral riding to Microprose's defense in 3...2...1...

I am sorry, but considering the appearance and name of the said emoticon, am I being branded a nutcase here?
Just want to make sure to know how I should react. Knowing it was edited makes me wonder if the original message was even more offensive?

Besides the fact that games release when ready. Blame the makers for taking their time, not the publisher for allowing us to do so. But by 2022 I'd (foolishly?) expect you to know your luck when a Publisher is willing not to rush you when you say your product isn't ready, opposite to having a Publisher forcing you to release (but it seems you do hold a grudge so I won't engage further...)

[The_Admiral]

...
But I wonder if there isn't a law of diminishing returns whereby the longer development goes on, the more your buzz becomes negative and a detriment to the project rather than an asset.

I believe there are diminishing returns to getting the word out too early. I think poster child for putting the word out too early was JMM's journey with the first version of Histwar Les Grognards. Initially, Battlefront was going to publish it. But the publicity got so far ahead of the reality of where JMM was with development, that the resulting delays seemed to poison the opinion's of the customer base, and also his relationship with Battlefront, who eventually dropped their publishing deal. Of course you could probably write an entire book about the triumph and tragedy of the Histwar series, and publicity vs. delays was only one of the game's many problems.   

These days I am anxious about Ezra Sidran's General Staff. Ezra goes back to almost the very beginning of computer wargaming, so I am cheering for him mightily...and he has already captured my wallet for General Staff. But I am concerned that the game is just taking too long. He has already had to change technology "horses" by moving from what he was building it in before (C++ maybe?) to Unity.

On the question of diminishing returns, it is an interesting regression-worthy question (by regression I mean curves, don't get me wrong  ). I don't have data to back it up, just my personal empirical experience. I do believe that there's a sweet spot of course, but that most of our games haven't run the course of this one.
You need to communicate early if you want to have any hope to find a publisher. Unlike what one might think, the disappearance of box editions doesn't make these redundant - it is still a hell of a card to play whenever you need to reach out to influencers, which have absolutely taken over most media outlets, at least on the US market (i.e. Germans still do check out online magazines when buying simulations & wargames - crazy!). The word of the game in the business today is what is being branded "discovery". It is your ability to exist and seed leads along the way for end consumers to pick up and follow along a trail. Early call is important, for several reasons (some kinder than others, but das ist war after all):

- You mark your territory: existing out there in an moderately advanced state will discourage others to attempt something along the same lines, especially if you end up with a publisher, which is ultimately good for the competitor too: no reason to go against something too advanced, you will know you'd rather focus your energy on something else instead of spending time & money again & again, and realize a few months before your own coming out that somebody else had been doing something similar all along ;

- You have to communicate early to even kickstart the hype: Killerfish can allow itself to communicate later in the course of their project because they are sitting on a well-defined, recognized audience which has been growing over the course of their three previous titles. Even Triassic, which isn't Killerfish, can expect some return from the implication of its team in the previous Killerfish games. Here, my team and myself have nothing to show for. I can't communicate about myself (considering I am not working in the same industry anyway), our Dev while talented is not known for related breakout titles, our 3D artist is a young chap who's incredibly talented but is taking part to his first game - only my 2D artist had some prior public recognition, but it wasn't for a game either. Shaping your image by establishing the expertise of one's team over time is one way to go. We have everything to prove, I sure hope our weekly updates sort of show we're perhaps ready for this challenge after all.

- Considering the above situation, Publishers besides other things they bring to a project provide you with the sort of visibility you cannot hope to achieve all by yourself too easily, especially if you're busy with something else. I am happy for those who can do without it (see Nebulous for instance, which was a great adventure) but I simply cannot hope that considering the complexity of our gameplay loop. Today we have a number of wishlists which put us in the upper third of the upcoming games on Steam, which by itself is a miracle for the sort of contents we're providing. The brand & the good game release numbers achieved with Highfleet & Carrier Command 2 provide the sort of internal label dynamic that can guarantee me daily numbers most small dev studios can only dream of. So, yes, there is certainly a loss overtime, perhaps a loss of interest from some of the early backers - but even these ones, as long as they have wishlisted us, contribute today through this action to the visibility of our project. It is not a zero-sum affair at all. Right now, I have many times more people wishlisting us every day opposed to the people taking us off their wishlist, and as long as it will remain the case, it's all good. It is, in my regard, the least I can do as to cheer my teammates up and make them realized there are people waiting for the result of their work at the end of our long journey.

- As a by-product of going with a publisher, it has provided us with a sense of security which would be welcome in normal times, but has been invaluable in the Covid era. Some of our team members (I won't elaborate) suffered several family losses in the course of a few months. Myself lost my father in January and I have to care now for my mother. Having one more leg on which to stand while I pursue my passion is nothing to scoff at. If I hadn't ever communicated about the game, and without the tens of thousands of wishlists we currently have in our pocket, I wouldn't feel so sure about the future (or at least, about computing the very existence of this game in my own plans). I have no such worry in the current circumstances.

And about your earlier comment AT regarding the sausage being made, I have met all kinds. People like you who don't want to hear about it before it's ready, people who absolutely want to hear about it all the time and tell us to take our time, and obviously people also who wants to know about it, but tell us it's about time to release. One size cannot fit you all surely. Still, there's an obvious way of satisfying the greater number: we are in an age where you can choose to ignore news, but on the other hand there's no way something not posted would still be accessible to those who want to know. It's all made of compromises I am afraid, always, and might require from you some special help by blocking us all or something, but as IRL - I can always choose to fast in presence of food, but I certainly can't choose to eat when the fridge is empty  ^-^

Sorry for the long messy post, I hope this kinda makes sense :)
Cheers