Coming to gog and steam...finally!
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2707280/Wargame_Construction_Set_III_Age_of_Rifles_18461905/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/2707280/Wargame_Construction_Set_III_Age_of_Rifles_18461905/)
Great Naval Battles
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2702080/Great_Naval_Battles_The_Final_Fury/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/2702080/Great_Naval_Battles_The_Final_Fury/)
Never played either of them, will certainly give them a look when released.
Excellent news!!
Now we just need "Battles of Napoleon"
Hard to believe it has taken this long.
Both good games, though a little graphically challenged on a big monitor. Think AoR will probably be better for most than GNB as teh graphics hold up better & gameplay more intuitive.
Hopefully next on the list "Tanks" or the V for Victory series??
Quote from: Phantom on December 11, 2023, 02:41:33 PMBoth good games, though a little graphically challenged on a big monitor. Think AoR will probably be better for most than GNB as teh graphics hold up better & gameplay more intuitive.
Hopefully next on the list "Tanks" or the V for Victory series??
Tanks is being released, as well.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2707270/Wargame_Construction_Set_II_Tanks/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/2707270/Wargame_Construction_Set_II_Tanks/)
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 10, 2023, 10:17:28 PMComing to gog and steam...finally!
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2707280/Wargame_Construction_Set_III_Age_of_Rifles_18461905/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/2707280/Wargame_Construction_Set_III_Age_of_Rifles_18461905/)
Embarassed to admit I bought a used copy of AoRs from Babbages or Electronic Boutique decades ago...still have it, but never opened it. :idiot2:
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 10, 2023, 10:17:28 PMGreat Naval Battles
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2702080/Great_Naval_Battles_The_Final_Fury/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/2702080/Great_Naval_Battles_The_Final_Fury/)
Now this one I played the h*ll out of. Still have my big box of Great Naval Battles The Final Fury.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.mobygames.com%2Fcovers%2F467461-the-complete-great-naval-battles-the-final-fury-dos-front-cover.jpg&hash=29325c11a0b12ff5bac1c08ff5346d4260fc7251)
I guess Steel Panthers I & II, Fighting Steel, Soldiers at War and Silent Hunter I won't be that far away too :ThumbsUp:
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 10, 2023, 10:17:28 PMComing to gog and steam...finally!
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2707280/Wargame_Construction_Set_III_Age_of_Rifles_18461905/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/2707280/Wargame_Construction_Set_III_Age_of_Rifles_18461905/)
Great Naval Battles
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2702080/Great_Naval_Battles_The_Final_Fury/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/2702080/Great_Naval_Battles_The_Final_Fury/)
Well that came out of nowhere. Why a more updated Age of Rifles never materialized
is a mystery to me.
I have a vague memory of Norm Koger wanting to update it but being unable to regain the rights. Or something like that.
For those that played age of rifles or the naval game, what made them so special? Do you think what made them special back then will hold up in modern days? Not really worried about the graphics(except if the resolution doesn't scale well on larger monitors and higher resolutions making it hard to play), but gameplay wise was there something about them that would give more current games a run for their money? Or is it all just nostalgia now?
I'll highly likely will pick them up regardless, just curious since never played.
Age of Rifles' appeal wasn't so much about the game itself, it was more about the era it modeled. At least, that's what stands out in my memory. Crimean War, the Anglo-Zulu War, Afghan Wars, the Prusso-Austrian and the Franco-Prussian War, and the Russo-Japanese War were included. There just wasn't anything else out there at the time gaming these conflicts.
Also have vague memories of GNB, but what stands out is the ability to take control of individual ships and view the action from various stations. It was pretty unique at the time.
Very few of these classic games hold up. But I'm glad they get worked on and made functional on modern systems. Let younger players see how real games were made during the golden age of PC gaming. It's also nice to take a trip back in time on occasion.
GNB had a fairly good damage control element, where individual compartments were damaged/on fire/destroyed/flooded. That is a factor that has been missing from a lot of naval wargames.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 12, 2023, 05:42:42 AMFor those that played age of rifles or the naval game, what made them so special? Do you think what made them special back then will hold up in modern days? Not really worried about the graphics(except if the resolution doesn't scale well on larger monitors and higher resolutions making it hard to play), but gameplay wise was there something about them that would give more current games a run for their money? Or is it all just nostalgia now?
I'll highly likely will pick them up regardless, just curious since never played.
Can't speak so much about GNB as I never played it that much. AoR reminded me of playing soldiers as a kid, its very simple & intuitive but can be wearing to play bigger battles as you control each unit individually (though I think you could move whole formations). As Jarhead says, it covers a large breadth of conflicts so keeps pretty fresh.
The same applies to "Tanks" - WW2, modern US/Soviet conflicts & Arab/Israeli wars etc etc...all with sound effects! Both IMO small good filler games with a reasonably challenging AI. if they come on sale cheap I'll prob buy them - have tried running them both on DOSbox with mixed results.
AoR was amazing for its ease of play while still feeling crunchy.
It also had an amazingly simple battle editor.
As Jarhead said, it also covered a lot of criminally ignored conflicts.
It still stands solidly as my favorite wargame of all time and I'd do anything to see a remaster of it.
As it is I still play it on occasion in dosbox even though I have to shrink it to a tiny window for it to be at all tolerable.
Just looking through the list of SSI games on Wikipedia. So many great wargames!
Of all those great games, only a handful have been pillaged by devs and publishers in this century; Panzer Corps is a redo of Panzer General, The Operational Art of War, and Steel Panthers are the one ones that come immediately to mind (there are bunch of D&D RPG titles that were reissued, but let's agree to focus on wargames).
Sure a bunch of the old SSI titles would not be worth the effort for a redo. But I believe that most of the titles are like gold nuggets just waiting for someone to pick them up.
Here is the list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Strategic_Simulations_games (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Strategic_Simulations_games)
^That list makes me cry nostalgia tears.
Quote from: Gusington on December 13, 2023, 08:11:05 PM^That list makes me cry nostalgia tears.
I learned a long time ago with GOG that many of the great old games don't hold up well for me today. Lots of nostalgia but little gaming joy now. I never played the two games detailed here so my comment isn't directed at them specifically. The killer for me was the old original Xcom, which I played endlessly when it first came out. But it just didn't have the magic for me now.
Quote from: Rayfer on December 14, 2023, 07:51:39 AMI learned a long time ago with GOG that many of the great old games don't hold up well for me today....
I find that games without mouse support, or minimal mouse support, are harder for me to take now.
Tanks was my all time favorite wargame. I have no idea how well it will have aged in the re-launch. GNB and AoR were right up there, too. Some how modern devs have not managed to capture the combination of game, history and military detail that these old games manifested. I think they tend to bias toward presentation/graphics in order to appeal to a larger, less wargamery consumer base. Hmmmmm....it must be a profit/money thing. Go figure!
Thanks for the feedback everyone, I guess I will see how it resonates with me in a few days, although certainly keeping my expectations in check:)
In my dream world, WDS would get the "Age of Rifles," license in order to go hog wild with the idea. It'd be glorious.
Quote from: Dammit Carl! on December 15, 2023, 03:40:24 PMIn my dream world, WDS would get the "Age of Rifles," license in order to go hog wild with the idea. It'd be glorious.
I want to live in that reality.
I enjoyed Tanks! and Age of Rifles' campaign generators.
In Tanks! the player could setup parameters for random campaigns that featured major combatants from WWI through the 1990s, even matching forces from orders of battle from different eras against each other. A modded version of Tanks! called XTanks! replaced the historical OOBs with force structures from around the globe circa the late 1990s to about 2000.
The scale of Tanks! is similar to Steel Panthers III, 250 meters per hex, 5 minute turns. Maneuver elements are platoons which belong to parent company formations. The whole company formation has ratings for morale, supply, and command. The game has on map player-controlled artillery and off map close air support that is semi controlled by the player depending on the time period of the scenario or campaign.
Tanks! also has a map editor and scenario editor.
Check out The Armor Site for more information about Tanks!
https://id3486.securedata.net/fprado/armorsite/main.html
Says release is in an hour or so....I'll get it tonight (assuming not some crazy price) to give it a shot.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 15, 2023, 05:02:29 PMQuote from: Dammit Carl! on December 15, 2023, 03:40:24 PMIn my dream world, WDS would get the "Age of Rifles," license in order to go hog wild with the idea. It'd be glorious.
I want to live in that reality.
Well....
In this Tally-Ho Corner Interview (https://tallyhocorner.com/2023/10/zulus-on-the-horizon-and-buratinos-on-the-back-burner-wargame-design-studio-interviewed/)
We said: '
We were pleasantly surprised at the response to the Little Big Horn Demo, and we can see that the period 1850 – 1910 is underserved, but ripe for some new innovations.'
We also posted this image.
(https://www.wargamedesignstudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Post-20231024_01.jpg)
Quote from: Strela on December 19, 2023, 08:18:57 AMQuote from: SirAndrewD on December 15, 2023, 05:02:29 PMQuote from: Dammit Carl! on December 15, 2023, 03:40:24 PMIn my dream world, WDS would get the "Age of Rifles," license in order to go hog wild with the idea. It'd be glorious.
I want to live in that reality.
Well....
In this Tally-Ho Corner Interview (https://tallyhocorner.com/2023/10/zulus-on-the-horizon-and-buratinos-on-the-back-burner-wargame-design-studio-interviewed/)
We said: 'We were pleasantly surprised at the response to the Little Big Horn Demo, and we can see that the period 1850 – 1910 is underserved, but ripe for some new innovations.'
Well that is great news, but to be honest my (rose-tainted?) memory of the Age of Rifles user experience is that it is above even the current (much, much improved) WDS-era Tiller-engine's. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of respect for the teams working with the various Tiller-iterations; the historical research put into the games and scenarios alone often warrant their purchase price, but I wish this extraordinary talent and effort could go into something more modern than a mid-90s engine.
Wargame Construction Set + Tanks + Age of Rifles bundle sale all for $8.40.
I couldn't resist, and bought AoR and Tanks!
Played around a bit with AoR, and was pleasantly surprised that the interface is pretty intuitive and slightly better than some contemporary wargames (IMHO). Graphics is what it is of course...IMHO AoR is better than you might think (the bar should be set for the '90s of course).
I was not as impressed with Tanks! but oh well...
OK, I fiddled with Tanks and AoR for a few minutes each. The UI is quirky, but not NEARLY as off-putting as I was afraid of! You CAN use the mouse to move stuff around. I need to spend some more time with each game, but I think these old-timers are more than just "playable". And while the graphics are not modern and slick, for tabletop game type wargames they are OK....nothing like a Total War game but not disastrously worse than something like Shadow Empire. I have no feel for how "adjustable" the graphics are, but both games fill up and look OK on my 17.3" laptop at 1920x1080. DosBox apparently comes with the download and automatically starts up before the game does. It all worked seamlessly for me. Both games have scenario editors and I wonder if the game can be "modded" re graphics.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on December 19, 2023, 01:48:43 PMI couldn't resist, and bought AoR and Tanks!
Played around a bit with AoR, and was pleasantly surprised that the interface is pretty intuitive and slightly better than some contemporary wargames (IMHO). Graphics is what it is of course...IMHO AoR is better than you might think (the bar should be set for the '90s of course).
I was not as impressed with Tanks! but oh well...
+1 for all ArizonaTank said. I started to mention the Tanks/AoR difference, but I was not sure if it was not just my style perception.
Download for Tanks - 4.4Mb
Download for AoR - a bit over 400 MB
Must be some graphics improvements in there. Don't misunderstand, Tanks is really OK.
Two month ago I ran across an old three-ring binder containing 3/4" of scenario design pages for Tanks! and maybe a few for AoR. It was shoved back into some box that I had bravely refused to allow my wife to bully me into throwing away even after two moves, deluded that it might someday be useful.
MIRACLES HAPPEN!!!!
Quote from: solops on December 19, 2023, 01:53:29 PM...but both games fill up and look OK on my 17.3" laptop at 1920x1080. DosBox apparently comes with the download and automatically starts up before the game does. It all worked seamlessly for me. Both games have scenario editors and I wonder if the game can be "modded" re graphics.
How may I ask did you get it to run at 1920x1080?
Sorry, I'm old.
Edit: nvr mind, I actually figured it out. My grandson would be proud.
I haven't yet touched the AoR editors this time around, but back in the day, that was my big attraction to the game.
I even did a very nice Battle of Little Big Horn scenario in AoR. Very accurate, and even had the gatling gun variant. The scenario was so good, that some butt*&#@ even stripped my name out of the scenario notes and posted the scenario as their own work. It then made it into a scenario compilation under the butt*&#@'s name... :knuppel2: But that was long ago... :ninjameditate:
So looking forward to playing with the editors again...
I never got to play the legendary Age of Rifles. Might want to change that. Price tag isn't too shabby.
However...I am curious about Great Naval Battles- Final Fury though. But to be honest there is a LOT to chew on here. I mean Tanks! Phantasie, etc... :buck2:
Quote from: gregb41352 on December 19, 2023, 02:41:02 PMQuote from: solops on December 19, 2023, 01:53:29 PM...but both games fill up and look OK on my 17.3" laptop at 1920x1080. DosBox apparently comes with the download and automatically starts up before the game does. It all worked seamlessly for me. Both games have scenario editors and I wonder if the game can be "modded" re graphics.
How may I ask did you get it to run at 1920x1080?
Sorry, I'm old.
Edit: nvr mind, I actually figured it out. My grandson would be proud.
Each time you start the game a box pops up with the option to run the game or go to a UI adjustment utility. In the utility there are all kinds of options, including setting the screen parameters. This was NOT part of the original game. That is where I chose 1920x1080. Others might want to know.
Can also press ALT+Enter when the small window shows and will make it the screen.
Dumb question...when on the map, is there any way to zoom in and out? I know we have the mini map, but with the screen so large, can only see small portion of the map at the same time. I am guessing the answer is no, but thought I would ask.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 19, 2023, 04:35:42 PMDumb question...when on the map, is there any way to zoom in and out? I know we have the mini map, but with the screen so large, can only see small portion of the map at the same time. I am guessing the answer is no, but thought I would ask.
Sadly no. You can use the overview map button in the right menu to get a zoomed out map and jump to an area.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 19, 2023, 05:33:33 PMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on December 19, 2023, 04:35:42 PMDumb question...when on the map, is there any way to zoom in and out? I know we have the mini map, but with the screen so large, can only see small portion of the map at the same time. I am guessing the answer is no, but thought I would ask.
Sadly no. You can use the overview map button in the right menu to get a zoomed out map and jump to an area.
Thanks. I don't see a map overview button on the right, only thing I see is a "mini" map at the bottom of the screen where you can see overview, although pretty small and largely unreadable.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 19, 2023, 06:30:03 PMThanks. I don't see a map overview button on the right, only thing I see is a "mini" map at the bottom of the screen where you can see overview, although pretty small and largely unreadable.
Fourth from the bottom going up. Looks a bit like a compass.
Got it, thanks.
Hi, first post here. I purchased the GOG version of AoR and spent some time refamiliarizing with the game. I am now trying to activate Norm Koger's (the programmer)imbedded advanced rules using a command line switch in the shortcut, to no avail. It seems the path goes thru the dos box folder and then several config files..
The original game path and added command at the end would have looked something like c:/Program Files/Age of Rifles/aor.exe oldrules+ .
It made the game significantly harder.
Anyone attempt to activate? ( or even know what I'm referring too ? Haha)
I hesitate to post a link but it's easy to find Norm Kogers home page, go to his games section and click on AoR where he has quite a few sections which dive deep into the mechanics of the game, as well as all the official and unofficial command line switches. Good stuff in there even if you're not interested in mucking about with advanced rules. Cheers!
Quote from: TheGrayMouser on December 22, 2023, 08:10:17 AMHi, first post here. I purchased the GOG version of AoR and spent some time refamiliarizing with the game. I am now trying to activate Norm Koger's (the programmer)imbedded advanced rules using a command line switch in the shortcut, to no avail. It seems the path goes thru the dos box folder and then several config files..
The original game path and added command at the end would have looked something like c:/Program Files/Age of Rifles/aor.exe oldrules+ .
It made the game significantly harder.
Anyone attempt to activate? ( or even know what I'm referring too ? Haha)
I hesitate to post a link but it's easy to find Norm Kogers home page, go to his games section and click on AoR where he has quite a few sections which dive deep into the mechanics of the game, as well as all the official and unofficial command line switches. Good stuff in there even if you're not interested in mucking about with advanced rules. Cheers!
Never played the original or with the options you stated, but at least for the Steam version there is a file called rifles-eng-game.conf which contains the startup command line for the game, like below. You could try putting the option after the line with Rifles.exe.
[autoexec]
@echo off
mount C GAME
imgmount D AgeOfRifles_EN.cue -t iso
config -securemode
C:
CLS
CD RIFLES
RIFLES.EXE
exit
Quote from: TheGrayMouser on December 22, 2023, 08:10:17 AMHi, first post here. I purchased the GOG version of AoR and spent some time refamiliarizing with the game. I am now trying to activate Norm Koger's (the programmer)imbedded advanced rules using a command line switch in the shortcut, to no avail. It seems the path goes thru the dos box folder and then several config files..
The original game path and added command at the end would have looked something like c:/Program Files/Age of Rifles/aor.exe oldrules+ .
It made the game significantly harder.
Anyone attempt to activate? ( or even know what I'm referring too ? Haha)
I hesitate to post a link but it's easy to find Norm Kogers home page, go to his games section and click on AoR where he has quite a few sections which dive deep into the mechanics of the game, as well as all the official and unofficial command line switches. Good stuff in there even if you're not interested in mucking about with advanced rules. Cheers!
Welcome on your first post!!! Keep'em coming!!
I always liked Koger's games because of their in-depth nerdiness.
In terms of being a gritty wargame wonk, Koger's only peer in pc game land is Gary Grigsby IMHO.
My only issue with Koger is that he seems to have dropped out of doing wargames, or games in general. A loss for all of us.
Maybe Koger's experience with Storm Eagle Studios and Jim Rose's toxic approach to marketing and pissing-off customers, left Koger cold?
Anyway, I seem to vaguely remember the advanced rules switch in AoR. Thanks for reminding me.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on December 22, 2023, 09:26:14 AMQuote from: TheGrayMouser on December 22, 2023, 08:10:17 AMHi, first post here. I purchased the GOG version of AoR and spent some time refamiliarizing with the game. I am now trying to activate Norm Koger's (the programmer)imbedded advanced rules using a command line switch in the shortcut, to no avail. It seems the path goes thru the dos box folder and then several config files..
The original game path and added command at the end would have looked something like c:/Program Files/Age of Rifles/aor.exe oldrules+ .
It made the game significantly harder.
Anyone attempt to activate? ( or even know what I'm referring too ? Haha)
I hesitate to post a link but it's easy to find Norm Kogers home page, go to his games section and click on AoR where he has quite a few sections which dive deep into the mechanics of the game, as well as all the official and unofficial command line switches. Good stuff in there even if you're not interested in mucking about with advanced rules. Cheers!
Welcome on your first post!!! Keep'em coming!!
I always liked Koger's games because of their in-depth nerdiness.
In terms of being a gritty wargame wonk, Koger's only peer in pc game land is Gary Grigsby IMHO.
My only issue with Koger is that he seems to have dropped out of doing wargames, or games in general. A loss for all of us.
Maybe Koger's experience with Storm Eagle Studios and Jim Rose's toxic approach to marketing and pissing-off customers, left Koger cold?
Anyway, I seem to vaguely remember the advanced rules switch in AoR. Thanks for reminding me.
Hopefully he blames Jim Rose instead of the customers who wouldn't have hesitated one second to snag his games otherwise. I was so bummed.
I have a vague memory (aren't they all these days) that Koger had basically sold his soul in his contract with Jim Rose and decided to do nothing rather than continue having to use that relationship.
I don't recall the advanced rules at all. Will have to check them out when I get around to trying the game again (already bought it this week).
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 22, 2023, 08:20:41 AMQuote from: TheGrayMouser on December 22, 2023, 08:10:17 AMHi, first post here. I purchased the GOG version of AoR and spent some time refamiliarizing with the game. I am now trying to activate Norm Koger's (the programmer)imbedded advanced rules using a command line switch in the shortcut, to no avail. It seems the path goes thru the dos box folder and then several config files..
The original game path and added command at the end would have looked something like c:/Program Files/Age of Rifles/aor.exe oldrules+ .
It made the game significantly harder.
Anyone attempt to activate? ( or even know what I'm referring too ? Haha)
I hesitate to post a link but it's easy to find Norm Kogers home page, go to his games section and click on AoR where he has quite a few sections which dive deep into the mechanics of the game, as well as all the official and unofficial command line switches. Good stuff in there even if you're not interested in mucking about with advanced rules. Cheers!
Never played the original or with the options you stated, but at least for the Steam version there is a file called rifles-eng-game.conf which contains the startup command line for the game, like below. You could try putting the option after the line with Rifles.exe.
[autoexec]
@echo off
mount C GAME
imgmount D AgeOfRifles_EN.cue -t iso
config -securemode
C:
CLS
CD RIFLES
RIFLES.EXE
exit
Awesome, thank you sir that did it!
I fumbled around as I thought you meant its own line ie below the exe but ended up figuring it out. One needs to enter Koger's command line(s) like so ( in bold):
@echo off
mount C GAME
imgmount D AgeOfRifles_EN.cue -t iso
config -securemode
C:
CLS
CD RIFLES
RIFLES.EXE
oldrules+exit
Be advised I think Koger notes that these command(s) are sticky, so if you try oldrules+ and don't like it, one would presumably need to replace the added command to oldrules- to revert back.
You can tell that you did it correctly by looking at the credits screen and it will display the full version of the game 1.4.01 instead of 1.4. Also if you launch a scenario and click on a selected unit card/graphic for details on the units and its weapons, its will show actual numerical values for various firing ranges and not the verbose "fair at 2 hexes, poor at 3" etc.
Of note to some as well, the GAME/Rifles folder ( at least in the GOG version) has a couple of read me texts that basically are the same as on Koger's website with all his command line switches and what they do.
Now that I have this a**l retentive monkey off my back I can go enjoy the game!
Cheers!
I'm pretty sure the Rose thing was the nail in the coffin for him.
Shame too, his games were and still are SO good.
Anyone that plays AoR now for the first time are obviously overcoming an ancient interface and hard to deal with overall map with lack of zoom but man, you can see how it struck the balance between ease of use and crunch.
And at the time it was an AMAZING looking game. It was like pushing around toy soldiers in a nice fast to learn crunchy wargame that covered an era that was untouched before and is still neglected though it heartens me that WDS is addressing it.
I'd love to see the game as it functions updated to modern standards though. It seems such a no brainer design and balance of looks and gameplay that I can't believe it hasn't been emulated.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 22, 2023, 11:23:22 PMI'd love to see the game as it functions updated to modern standards though. It seems such a no brainer design and balance of looks and gameplay that I can't believe it hasn't been emulated.
Somebody kinda tried and it's darn cheap at the moment https://store.steampowered.com/app/1679290/Fire__Maneuver/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1679290/Fire__Maneuver/)
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/1679290/header.jpg?t=1687805428)
Quote from: em2nought on December 23, 2023, 12:19:01 AMSomebody kinda tried and it's darn cheap at the moment https://store.steampowered.com/app/1679290/Fire__Maneuver/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1679290/Fire__Maneuver/)
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/1679290/header.jpg?t=1687805428)
Oh, I have it and it's not the same.
The UI is obtrusive and can't really be scaled and it's concept of queued orders is interesting but not really the same as AoR.
Also the engine, last time I tried, can't even remotely reach or replicate the scale of engagement of AoR or emulate actual battles.
AoR effectively has battles like Alma, Königgrätz, Sedan and Solferino reasonably accurately represented. F&M has nothing of the sort last time I gave it a go.
I had super high hopes F&M was the game to replace AoR but it really didn't seem to fit the bill.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 22, 2023, 11:23:22 PMI'm pretty sure the Rose thing was the nail in the coffin for him.
Shame too, his games were and still are SO good.
Anyone that plays AoR now for the first time are obviously overcoming an ancient interface and hard to deal with overall map with lack of zoom but man, you can see how it struck the balance between ease of use and crunch.
And at the time it was an AMAZING looking game. It was like pushing around toy soldiers in a nice fast to learn crunchy wargame that covered an era that was untouched before and is still neglected though it heartens me that WDS is addressing it.
I'd love to see the game as it functions updated to modern standards though. It seems such a no brainer design and balance of looks and gameplay that I can't believe it hasn't been emulated.
As someone who didn't play the original, just a few of my observations.
- Graphics/UI are certainly dated, but not unexpected. Not a huge concern for me.
- I'll admit not having better zoom options does make it harder to play, just can't see enough of the battlefield.
- My biggest issue so far is with the AI itself. Could have sworn I have read in places people praising how good the AI was. Maybe it was for back in the day, but this is the part that likely prevent me from playing that long. I am no expert at these games, but the AI seems brain dead. They clearly prioritize objectives which they should, but they make a beeline for them regardless of the situation. And they don't always seemingly go after the right ones. I had a couple of units a few hexes away from 3 objectives, while the enemy had a good size force. They completely ignored the near objectives and made a run for others a long ways away and wouldn't have gotten the same points. Saw the AI leave a single artillery unit behind to defend an area, while I had overwhelming force in the area. It wasn't like they were lagging behind the rest, the movements were purposeful to stay behind and engage the force. Maybe you could call it a delaying action, but odd to do with artillery which is so valuable and would be fairly easy to rush. Many other odd things I have see so I could go on and on.
With all that said, no regrets in buying as I always wanted to play it and I am sure it was great back in the day, especially how simple it seems, but going to be hard for me to invest time playing against the AI and at the same time deal with the UI constraints.
I picked up Great Naval Battles.
I loved the system back in the day, and I was happy to see that after so many years, the interface has aged well. I didn't have much time to play with it yet, but what I saw left me happy and excited.
It's wonderful that the package contains all 5 GNB games. Fully covers WWII (North Atlantic, Med, Pacific) and even has a Plan Orange scenario. As a bonus, the last game covers WWI.
I will check out gameplay over the next weeks and see how the AI holds up.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 23, 2023, 05:56:32 AM- My biggest issue so far is with the AI itself. Could have sworn I have read in places people praising how good the AI was. Maybe it was for back in the day, but this is the part that likely prevent me from playing that long. I am no expert at these games, but the AI seems brain dead. They clearly prioritize objectives which they should, but they make a beeline for them regardless of the situation. And they don't always seemingly go after the right ones. I had a couple of units a few hexes away from 3 objectives, while the enemy had a good size force. They completely ignored the near objectives and made a run for others a long ways away and wouldn't have gotten the same points. Saw the AI leave a single artillery unit behind to defend an area, while I had overwhelming force in the area. It wasn't like they were lagging behind the rest, the movements were purposeful to stay behind and engage the force. Maybe you could call it a delaying action, but odd to do with artillery which is so valuable and would be fairly easy to rush. Many other odd things I have see so I could go on and on.
AI in those old games is an interesting topic.
Games like AoR routinely had random maps, and random campaigns. That means the AI couldn't be scripted and had to be dynamic. The result was often very simplistic sparring. AI hardly ever got better over time. In those days, there was only a very thin feedback pipe from customers, and inefficient ways to update the software. The AI that the game shipped with almost never got a major update.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on December 23, 2023, 09:35:23 AMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on December 23, 2023, 05:56:32 AM- My biggest issue so far is with the AI itself. Could have sworn I have read in places people praising how good the AI was. Maybe it was for back in the day, but this is the part that likely prevent me from playing that long. I am no expert at these games, but the AI seems brain dead. They clearly prioritize objectives which they should, but they make a beeline for them regardless of the situation. And they don't always seemingly go after the right ones. I had a couple of units a few hexes away from 3 objectives, while the enemy had a good size force. They completely ignored the near objectives and made a run for others a long ways away and wouldn't have gotten the same points. Saw the AI leave a single artillery unit behind to defend an area, while I had overwhelming force in the area. It wasn't like they were lagging behind the rest, the movements were purposeful to stay behind and engage the force. Maybe you could call it a delaying action, but odd to do with artillery which is so valuable and would be fairly easy to rush. Many other odd things I have see so I could go on and on.
AI in those old games is an interesting topic.
Games like AoR routinely had random maps, and random campaigns. That means the AI couldn't be scripted and had to be dynamic. The result was often very simplistic sparring. AI hardly ever got better over time. In those days, there was only a very thin feedback pipe from customers, and inefficient ways to update the software. The AI that the game shipped with almost never got a major update.
Yep, although I didn't play this specific game, I played many of SSI and such other games back in the day:) The fact social media didn't exist was actually a plus in my mind as didn't see countless negative stuff or nit picking, simply enjoyed it for what it was. Even lack of patches didn't bother me because I just played the game, didn't wait for the eventual patches to come out like happens today. Still believe wargaming was "more fun" back then for me, even though certainly the games nowadays are impressive on many other levels.
I only brought up the AI since I thought people mentioned being one of its strengths so was a little surprised it didn't seem better, granted back in the day it probably seemed totally fine and people couldn't dissect it to pieces. Just was expecting it to be a little tougher but that is OK, this was more of a purchase to see what I missed versus any serious long term play.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 23, 2023, 10:05:53 AM...The fact social media didn't exist was actually a plus in my mind as didn't see countless negative stuff or nit picking, simply enjoyed it for what it was....
+1
In some ways, I actually liked the simplistic (compared to more sophisticated games these days) AI in many SSI titles. Basically the AI advanced with everything, and fought full-bore trying to take the objectives. Or, if on defense, it would establish a line and just hold on to it no matter what. But the AI still would react to enemy action, trying not to get flanked etc. But in simplistic ways.
BTW, it wasn't just SSI. Combat Mission version 1 games (CMx1) all had similar AI; not very sophisticated, but capable of keeping the fun level up. CMx1 did not have the scripted AI in CMx2 (although you still can play games unscripted in CMx2 and scripted scenarios are better IMHO).
I remember being "content" with the state of the AI in those days. I decided I didn't need an opponent, just a simple sparring partner to hold the bag while I punched.
I even got to like the simple AI. I remember when HistWar was being developed, the dev was attempting to have the AI do some real thinking about how to utilize the terrain before each battle. But the dev only got half there. The HistWar AI would analyze the map, develop a decent plan at the beginning of the battle, but then stick to it, no matter what happened on the battlefield during the game. I remember thinking that HistWar would have been a better game, if the dev had just stuck to SSI's simplistic formula.
That's a great first post, Mouser!
I'm not at my computer right now, but I'm looking forward to getting into GNB. I played a lot of one of them a long time ago. And Fighting Steel. Wish that would come back, too.
Re: Koger- he did the Jutland game, right? I sure wish that didn't have that ridiculous DRM, it looked like a great game that was killed by that stupid, ridiculous DRM.
Quote from: Toonces on December 26, 2023, 11:35:15 AMThat's a great first post, Mouser!
I'm not at my computer right now, but I'm looking forward to getting into GNB. I played a lot of one of them a long time ago. And Fighting Steel. Wish that would come back, too.
Re: Koger- he did the Jutland game, right? I sure wish that didn't have that ridiculous DRM, it looked like a great game that was killed by that stupid, ridiculous DRM.
I would love to see Fighting Steel come back as well.
Yes, Koger did Jutland and "Distant Guns," a Russo-Japanese War game as well. They were good games, except for the DRM as you pointed out. IMHO, the DRM was toxic and stupid. That was the brainchild of Jim Rose at the head of Storm Eagle Studios...Rose could also be described as toxic IMHO.
That's it: Distant Guns. What a squandered opportunity, that looked like a gem of a game.
Jutland and Distant Guns - two of the biggest disappointments I can remember. Good naval games and space 4x games are auto-buys for me. I got the first one they released - Jutland? - and played the heck out of it with great joy until they retro-fitted it with the unacceptable DRM in preparation for the release of the second game. Never played it again. So, so sad and aggravating. And Norm Koger had been the BEST of the hard core wargame makers. His name alone was enough for me up until then. All because of the DRM...
^The same exact thing happened to me with Distant Guns :embarrassed:
Old codgers who play wargames don't steal your digital property, they're more likely to buy two of everything just so they have a backup than they are to steal it. :idiot2:
Quote from: Gusington on December 27, 2023, 12:57:51 PM^The same exact thing happened to me with Distant Guns :embarrassed:
I could not agree more. It is the most hateful and intrusive DRM I've ever seen, and I own Steel Beasts Pro PE (to be fair to SB, once you pay the exorbitant price and get the USB dongle, it "just works" (TM)).
If they just threw Jutland and DG on Steam I think they'd get a (by grog standards) massive new following, but they still insist on selling it through their forgotten, broken "Stormpowered" platform. It's simultaneously hilarious and kind of sad.
I think it's inevitable that company will disappear soon, and all trace of these games in playable form with it.
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on December 27, 2023, 02:36:29 PMQuote from: Gusington on December 27, 2023, 12:57:51 PM^The same exact thing happened to me with Distant Guns :embarrassed:
I could not agree more. It is the most hateful and intrusive DRM I've ever seen, and I own Steel Beasts Pro PE (to be fair to SB, once you pay the exorbitant price and get the USB dongle, it "just works" (TM)).
If they just threw Jutland and DG on Steam I think they'd get a (by grog standards) massive new following, but they still insist on selling it through their forgotten, broken "Stormpowered" platform. It's simultaneously hilarious and kind of sad.
I think it's inevitable that company will disappear soon, and all trace of these games in playable form with it.
Because of this conversation, I decided to try to play Distant Guns, that I had not touched in years. The Storm Eagle Studios website is still up and running, and my account was still there. So far so good. But after that, hell broke loose.
I installed the game, and then the Stormpowered DRM took over my computer. The screen started flashing on and off, and I could not stop it. While the screen flashed, I could not run or do anything...it was scary. Reboot brought no relief. Task Manager still worked, but Stormpowered was spamming processes faster than I could turn them off. Fortunately, I had installed it on an external drive. When I unplugged the drive, the flashing stopped. Still, I spent many hours last night cleaning up the mess on my external drive.
I don't think Stormpowered is intentional malware, but it might as well be. I suspect it just doesn't run well on Win 11. Anyway, based on my fresh experience, I would recommend that you stay 'distant' from Stormpowerd.
^Wow. Thanks for taking one for the team.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on December 28, 2023, 09:02:31 AMQuote from: CaptainKoloth on December 27, 2023, 02:36:29 PMQuote from: Gusington on December 27, 2023, 12:57:51 PM^The same exact thing happened to me with Distant Guns :embarrassed:
I could not agree more. It is the most hateful and intrusive DRM I've ever seen, and I own Steel Beasts Pro PE (to be fair to SB, once you pay the exorbitant price and get the USB dongle, it "just works" (TM)).
If they just threw Jutland and DG on Steam I think they'd get a (by grog standards) massive new following, but they still insist on selling it through their forgotten, broken "Stormpowered" platform. It's simultaneously hilarious and kind of sad.
I think it's inevitable that company will disappear soon, and all trace of these games in playable form with it.
Because of this conversation, I decided to try to play Distant Guns, that I had not touched in years. The Storm Eagle Studios website is still up and running, and my account was still there. So far so good. But after that, hell broke loose.
I installed the game, and then the Stormpowered DRM took over my computer. The screen started flashing on and off, and I could not stop it. While the screen flashed, I could not run or do anything...it was scary. Reboot brought no relief. Task Manager still worked, but Stormpowered was spamming processes faster than I could turn them off. Fortunately, I had installed it on an external drive. When I unplugged the drive, the flashing stopped. Still, I spent many hours last night cleaning up the mess on my external drive.
I don't think Stormpowered is intentional malware, but it might as well be. I suspect it just doesn't run well on Win 11. Anyway, based on my fresh experience, I would recommend that you stay 'distant' from Stormpowerd.
Just curious, what kind of specific mess did it leave on the external hard drive that required hours of repair? Haven't seen a game or drm do that before, so just curious what it physically did to the drive that took that much work. Sounds scary for sure.
+1. Always a great start for a software review. "I don't think this is intentional malware, but..."
But hey, at least they deterred that one pirate while alienating 1000 legitimate potential customers.
RIP Distant Guns :undecided:
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 28, 2023, 09:56:49 AMJust curious, what kind of specific mess did it leave on the external hard drive that required hours of repair? Haven't seen a game or drm do that before, so just curious what it physically did to the drive that took that much work. Sounds scary for sure.
I connected the drive to a laptop. Since the laptop did not have Stormpowered installed, there was no flashing screen. I then deleted the Stormpowered directories, but to make certain it hadn't dropped a virus or malware somewhere else, I did a full scan. It is a 6TB drive, so the scan took 'many hours'. The scan found two viruses, but I don't think they were attributable to Stormpowered per se.
My theory on what the DRM was doing is that it was trying to phone home, and wasn't able to connect. Could be a million reasons for that. But it would fail, then three seconds later it would try again. It seemed to be creating a new process every time it tried to do this. I could watch the process list on Task Manager grow and grow.
Its really nasty behavior came from the fact that every-time Stormpowered retried to connect or whatever it was doing (every three seconds), it would stop and blank out whatever I was trying to do. So within the three second window, I could open up "setup," to do an uninstall, but I never had time to get to "apps" to do the uninstall. Stormpowered would blank me out. Scary that a bad piece of software can do that in Windows.
If I had accepted the standard install option, and let Storpowered install to my "C" boot drive, I would have been truely hosed.
Not to get too techy...but hell, I'll do it anyway. Under previous versions of Windows, I could have done a safe boot at startup. That would have let me stop Stormpowered before it got loaded. But I learned that Microsoft, in their wisdom, removed that feature in Windows 11. Supposedly, Windows 11 is smart enough to go into the safe mode automatically. Well, maybe I got the Windows 11 dumb version, because it was not going into safe mode for me.. Windows 11, does have a way to get into smart mode once you have started Windows, but that was no help since I couldn't run anything before Stormpowered would blank me out.
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on December 28, 2023, 09:57:16 AMBut hey, at least they deterred that one pirate while alienating 1000 legitimate potential customers.
These games were so niche I doubt they even deterred one pirate. There's no way any scene hacker would spend time trying to crack and release these games, and if they'd actually wanted to I'd wager they could easily disable the DRM.
They had a much higher chance to create a situation like Spore where the DRM was so bad people would get the pirated version over the paid so they could actually play it.
The biggest victims are people like myself and others here that actually own Distant Guns and Jutland and can't play them.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 28, 2023, 05:31:15 PMQuote from: CaptainKoloth on December 28, 2023, 09:57:16 AMBut hey, at least they deterred that one pirate while alienating 1000 legitimate potential customers.
These games were so niche I doubt they even deterred one pirate. There's no way any scene hacker would spend time trying to crack and release these games, and if they'd actually wanted to I'd wager they could easily disable the DRM.
They had a much higher chance to create a situation like Spore where the DRM was so bad people would get the pirated version over the paid so they could actually play it.
The biggest victims are people like myself and others here that actually own Distant Guns and Jutland and can't play them.
And just out of curiosity, I checked, um, "certain websites". And the great irony is, the game IS cracked. So it didn't even stop the piracy. It just made it impossible for legitimate customers to play, which of course is the traditional (and true) criticism of intrusive DRM. The sad thing is, in this as in other instances, pirates are ironically the only source of preservation of games where there is literally no way to play or buy them legally anymore.
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on December 28, 2023, 06:19:19 PMAnd the great irony is, the game IS cracked. So it didn't even stop the piracy. It just made it impossible for legitimate customers to play, which of course is the traditional (and true) criticism of intrusive DRM. The sad thing is, in this as in other instances, pirates are ironically the only source of preservation of games where there is literally no way to play or buy them legally anymore.
Sort of like firearms legislation.
I for one am impressed at the true groggy focus on this thread! -- a 'dongle' was mentioned, and yet the discussion stayed focus on topic! :ThumbsUp: :ninjameditate:
More importantly than dongles: that list of released games includes fricken DARK LEGIONS! -- arguably the best implementation of Archon-style gameplay. At the time SSI also held the D&D license and I could have sworn this was part of it, but apparently not?
Okay, on the other hand, I KNOW "Fantasy Empires" is D&D. Specifically, it's an adaptation of the classic board game (and RPG module) Red Arrow, Black Shield -- with the specific plot elements for that game removed for copyright reasons (probably). I doubt the live-action fights hold up today between units; it was rather wonky and gamey and easy to exploit even back on its release. But the board-level gaming was a little reasonable. A lot easier than setting up the map on my bed, getting out all the pieces, loading a program I had written in BASIC to enter battle information for random rolls and calculations... and then taking everything down again with paper information for how to set up someday.
Having said that, I'm pretty sure I recall that the unit setups in FE were not quite as detailed as in RABS, and I am totally sure I recall that my brother and I 'solved' the game: whoever could start or take a certain corner area on the map (I think northwest?) would always have too much advantage not to win.
Note that reviews indicate the UI is a little too primitive in some places (such as saving games), and that even on modern super-computers the tac battles can easily chug a lot! -- which the video promoting the game ACTUALLY INCLUDES FOOTAGE OF! At least they're being honest?
I have never heard of this 'Dark Legions.'
Tried a couple scenarios.
Omdurman was one I remember from 25 years ago. The Mahdi's forces attacked my entrenched? Brits badly. Led with cavalry that had been mopped up before infantry arrived. The southern prong of Mahdi's were militia and they stayed out of range and never attacked. Northern prong was fairly strong and briefly occupied parts of my line before reserves, gunboats and flanking them sent them reeling.
Ferrozeshah, a Brit attack on a Sikh fortification ended very badly for me. I turned on most of the advanced rules without really paying attention to what that meant. Reaction fire changed the game significantly. Moving or firing on units can draw replying fire from the attacked unit plus other units in the area. That fire can draw reaction fire from your adjacent units too. Trying to advance and melee resulted in massive firefights which I'm not sure how to deal with.
Cavalry was worthless as everyone and their brother shot them to pieces as they approached the entrenchments (yes, I'm not very experienced at tactical battles, it was stupid). I forgot for a while that you could stack. Not sure how that vital piece of information fled my brain after playing Omdurman. I advanced with my troops too spread out and took tons of fire. Probably should have kept one row of units shielded behind the front lines until I got close. Also I hadn't bothered to check gun ranges before I advanced. Also didn't realize that bushes could block sight. My artillery was dropped off too far away and with blocking terrain in front of them! My mistakes were multitudinous (don't think I've ever used that word before but it's appropriate).
And Positional Gun (PGUN with little wheels) cannot be unlimbered without full movement points. So move to position, next turn you can unlimber, third turn you can fire. Fortunately, they are long range with minimal dropoff (maybe 50% max at 20 hexes) so drop them outside enemy range. Once again know your weapon ranges!
There were a ton of user-made scenarios and campaigns made for AoR. And mirabile dictu I still have them. Much of it can be found at https://archive.org/details/wargamer-depot_age-of-rifles