2024 bones thread part 1:
https://community.battlefront.com/topic/143260-the-year-to-come-2024-part-1/#comment-2022019
In short:
- CMBS module scrapped
- CMFB late war module "Downfall" maybe this month, with Commonwealth
- British forces for CMCW underway
- Engine 5 update (performance changes only) underway
I also hope the engine 5 update addresses the issues with newer AMD graphics drivers. Not that I have AMD graphics, I am just sick of the complaining :D
Eagerly awaiting update 5, the performance is the only thing that has kept from playing these games. Here is hoping they make it run better on modern hardware.
Quote from: rss334 on January 06, 2024, 10:07:43 PMEagerly awaiting update 5, the performance is the only thing that has kept from playing these games. Here is hoping they make it run better on modern hardware.
I have a feeling that the update will be narrow in scope, but we'll see. Any improvement would be welcome.
Wonder how paid engine upgrades will work now they are on steam. Glad this one is free.
Well, British Forces DLC for CMCW is a good thing :ThumbsUp:
but like i wrote years before:
...even so it plays in the heart of Germany on German turf , there is (STILL) zero iconic German equipment
(faction, mabye as a QR force helping out, or in a what-if role. i didn't expect a full blown 'northern planes' campaign and aditional specific maps) in the game.
No Leopard, no Marders, Gepards , Fuchs , Wiesel , nada
it might be historical correct for that specific (vanilla game) sector , but come on, its the Cold War in Germany
Even worse not even planed as a pipe dream DLC announcement for the far future.
while some of the needed models for that DLC would be already in the NATO DLC of Shock Force 2 ?
its like having a Normandy game without any! Americans and only Gold, Juno, Sword beach with Brits :huh:
its like having Battle of Little BigHorn without Custor , only Reno's Attack and Reno-Benteen defense covered :huh:
Quote from: Skoop on January 07, 2024, 08:56:51 PMWonder how paid engine upgrades will work now they are on steam. Glad this one is free.
Well, hopefully that business model has been put to bed at Battlefront with the Matrix/Slitherine collaboration.
If not, then they can simply follow the current trend of calling the new version a "remaster" and can set a discount for owners of the previous version. :evil:
Has the flow of the actual war in Ukraine done anything to highlight deficiencies in BFC's modelling of the forces of the region? I don't follow the actual war news (can't really say I consider footage of men dying to be entertaining, my focus is more history, stuff that happened in the past). I do, however, get the occasional current events lectures in my reserve unit, and some of the topics have focused on drone warfare and electronic warfare, stuff like questioning the need for large command posts full of electronic equipment. I get the sense that kind of stuff is relevant to CM but not a game-breaker (the same way not having landing craft or flyable gliders weren't gamestoppers for their Normandy game). Has there been any other 'surprises' brought out in the actual fighting that might contribute to BFC reassessing their ability to model a war in that region?
I understand the "official" reason for the cancellation is apparently a moral one given the relationship of the fictional CM war to the actual war in Ukraine, but slightly curious if there might be more to it than that. I mean, when is the last time a content provider pulled back on grounds of good taste?
So watching them die 20 years from now when it's history will be ok ? You could say we're watching history in real time. Pretty sure avdivka, bahkmut, and Kherson will be studied just as much as Kursk, Stalingrad, and Leningrad.
Why wait for battlefront, I just open the editor and make changes that reflect what we're seeing today.
Also, steel beasts is remarkable for simulating the conflict.
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on January 08, 2024, 09:49:25 PMHas the flow of the actual war in Ukraine done anything to highlight deficiencies in BFC's modelling of the forces of the region? I don't follow the actual war news (can't really say I consider footage of men dying to be entertaining, my focus is more history, stuff that happened in the past). I do, however, get the occasional current events lectures in my reserve unit, and some of the topics have focused on drone warfare and electronic warfare, stuff like questioning the need for large command posts full of electronic equipment. I get the sense that kind of stuff is relevant to CM but not a game-breaker (the same way not having landing craft or flyable gliders weren't gamestoppers for their Normandy game). Has there been any other 'surprises' brought out in the actual fighting that might contribute to BFC reassessing their ability to model a war in that region?
I understand the "official" reason for the cancellation is apparently a moral one given the relationship of the fictional CM war to the actual war in Ukraine, but slightly curious if there might be more to it than that. I mean, when is the last time a content provider pulled back on grounds of good taste?
This is a weirdly cynical response to the announcement. If inaccuracy was the issue, they could easily fix that with a patch. Why not take them at their word for the reasoning behind the cancellation?
Quote from: Skoop on January 08, 2024, 10:43:54 PMSo watching them die 20 years from now when it's history will be ok ?
I'll certainly read about it in 20 years. I won't be watching contextless 20 year old Tik-Toks and cheering about the explosions.
QuoteYou could say we're watching history in real time.
Without knowing any of the deeper tactical and strategic goings on, you're just watching war-porn as entertainment. There are still big questions about the Second World War that have never been answered, watching gun camera footage is unlikely to answer any of them. That's not history.
QuoteWhy wait for battlefront, I just open the editor and make changes that reflect what we're seeing today.
What is it you think you're seeing today that needs to be changed? I clearly stated I don't know, which is usually the precondition for asking a question.
Quote from: al_infierno on January 08, 2024, 11:24:30 PMIf inaccuracy was the issue, they could easily fix that with a patch.
That predisposes that the "inaccuracy" was fixable by a simple patch, I'm premise of the question is that it is not.
Let's just stick to talking about the game, guys.
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on January 09, 2024, 08:14:14 AMQuote from: al_infierno on January 08, 2024, 11:24:30 PMIf inaccuracy was the issue, they could easily fix that with a patch.
That predisposes that the "inaccuracy" was fixable by a simple patch, I'm premise of the question is that it is not.
Given the scale of the CMBS maps and the tactical nature of the battle and the time a battle last, there is no "inaccuracy".
If you like to make an
actual scenario, You are just limited by having to pick from the then fictional 2017 time frame equipment and TOE and you might have to simulate Ukranians with US soldiers, so they have access to now donated equipment.
Its about to study and solve a tactical puzzle, not to generate a screenshot correct down to the right armpatches
Give both sides a good amount of UAV's and manpads to counter them and single shot precision ammunition (if possible for 120 mm mortars, on the map, for short response time, to simulate the tiny drones) and the electronic warfare set to a rather high setting.
The quality of single units can also be adjusted when you pick the units, so depending on the modeled scenario Russians may have lower morale green in the bulk of their units now and a few high value airborne vet units in the mix.
I think Slitherine did a good choice to avoid any happenstance shitstorm in these days of internet / social media / stupid 'jounalists' craziness
and unwanted attention from the outside to our beloved hobby of (old white boomer men's ;-) ) wargaming. It is far from woke.
Quote from: al_infierno on January 08, 2024, 11:24:30 PMQuote from: Michael Dorosh on January 08, 2024, 09:49:25 PMHas the flow of the actual war in Ukraine done anything to highlight deficiencies in BFC's modelling of the forces of the region? I don't follow the actual war news (can't really say I consider footage of men dying to be entertaining, my focus is more history, stuff that happened in the past). I do, however, get the occasional current events lectures in my reserve unit, and some of the topics have focused on drone warfare and electronic warfare, stuff like questioning the need for large command posts full of electronic equipment. I get the sense that kind of stuff is relevant to CM but not a game-breaker (the same way not having landing craft or flyable gliders weren't gamestoppers for their Normandy game). Has there been any other 'surprises' brought out in the actual fighting that might contribute to BFC reassessing their ability to model a war in that region?
I understand the "official" reason for the cancellation is apparently a moral one given the relationship of the fictional CM war to the actual war in Ukraine, but slightly curious if there might be more to it than that. I mean, when is the last time a content provider pulled back on grounds of good taste?
This is a weirdly cynical response to the announcement. If inaccuracy was the issue, they could easily fix that with a patch. Why not take them at their word for the reasoning behind the cancellation?
It is in fact a typically cynical Dorosh response to anything BF related...he has a long history of some weird kind of axe grinding.
I have seen much comment from BF in the forums about not modelling current wars...their issue is they have a habit of predicting them actually or nearly.
I believe the reason is entirely genuine and not related to any secret issue with the game they are trying to hide.
Am completely unsurprised Dorosh positions as such though.
These discussions are priceless for the nostalgia. Brings me back to Golden Age of Wargamer. We were all so young then. How I miss those days so... :RockOn:
:Dreamer:
I was 26 when I started writing for Jim.
'Sunrise, sunset.'
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 10, 2024, 01:59:07 PMThese discussions are priceless for the nostalgia. Brings me back to Golden Age of Wargamer. We were all so young then. How I miss those days so... :RockOn:
:notworthy: great post.
I am genuinely almost too scared to ask but genuinely want to know. How long is it now since the change and birth of GH ?
Quote from: Zulu1966 on January 10, 2024, 11:46:37 PMQuote from: Jarhead0331 on January 10, 2024, 01:59:07 PMThese discussions are priceless for the nostalgia. Brings me back to Golden Age of Wargamer. We were all so young then. How I miss those days so... :RockOn:
:notworthy: great post.
I am genuinely almost too scared to ask but genuinely want to know. How long is it now since the change and birth of GH ?
Looks like first user accounts created and first posts on January 26, 2012, including a welcome to the grogheads post. So just a little under 12 years now.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on January 11, 2024, 06:11:53 AMQuote from: Zulu1966 on January 10, 2024, 11:46:37 PMQuote from: Jarhead0331 on January 10, 2024, 01:59:07 PMThese discussions are priceless for the nostalgia. Brings me back to Golden Age of Wargamer. We were all so young then. How I miss those days so... :RockOn:
:notworthy: great post.
I am genuinely almost too scared to ask but genuinely want to know. How long is it now since the change and birth of GH ?
Looks like first user accounts created and first posts on January 26, 2012, including a welcome to the grogheads post. So just a little under 12 years now.
Jeez...where did that go... Was thinking. 6 or 7 in my initial thoughts maximum.
^Yeah, crazy eh?
Yes, Grogheads was formed circa 2012 Anno Domini. What a trip it's been. :Party:
Regarding BF decision on Black Sea, I am fine with their decision.
In my long history with wargaming, I can't think of any commercial computer, boardgame or miniature games published about a particular high intensity war while that war was happening. But I admit there are probably some outliers out there (low intensity conflicts like the war on terror for example).
I think there are a bunch of reasons for this, and those reasons really aren't worth arguing over, IMHO.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on January 11, 2024, 11:19:33 AMRegarding BF decision on Black Sea, I am fine with their decision.
In my long history with wargaming, I can't think of any commercial computer, boardgame or miniature games published about a particular high intensity war while that war was happening. But I admit there are probably some outliers out there (low intensity conflicts like the war on terror for example).
I think there are a bunch of reasons for this, and those reasons really aren't worth arguing over, IMHO.
GMT just put on their P500 series a game on the first attack by the Russians on Ukraine. Called Defiance: 2nd Russian Ukranian War 2022-? https://www.gmtgames.com/p-1087-defiance-2nd-russo-ukrainian-war-2022.aspx
Quote from: Zulu1966 on January 10, 2024, 01:22:06 PMQuote from: al_infierno on January 08, 2024, 11:24:30 PMQuote from: Michael Dorosh on January 08, 2024, 09:49:25 PMHas the flow of the actual war in Ukraine done anything to highlight deficiencies in BFC's modelling of the forces of the region? I don't follow the actual war news (can't really say I consider footage of men dying to be entertaining, my focus is more history, stuff that happened in the past). I do, however, get the occasional current events lectures in my reserve unit, and some of the topics have focused on drone warfare and electronic warfare, stuff like questioning the need for large command posts full of electronic equipment. I get the sense that kind of stuff is relevant to CM but not a game-breaker (the same way not having landing craft or flyable gliders weren't gamestoppers for their Normandy game). Has there been any other 'surprises' brought out in the actual fighting that might contribute to BFC reassessing their ability to model a war in that region?
I understand the "official" reason for the cancellation is apparently a moral one given the relationship of the fictional CM war to the actual war in Ukraine, but slightly curious if there might be more to it than that. I mean, when is the last time a content provider pulled back on grounds of good taste?
This is a weirdly cynical response to the announcement. If inaccuracy was the issue, they could easily fix that with a patch. Why not take them at their word for the reasoning behind the cancellation?
It is in fact a typically cynical Dorosh response to anything BF related...he has a long history of some weird kind of axe grinding.
I have seen much comment from BF in the forums about not modelling current wars...their issue is they have a habit of predicting them actually or nearly.
I believe the reason is entirely genuine and not related to any secret issue with the game they are trying to hide.
Am completely unsurprised Dorosh positions as such though.
As one of the people that was actually a participent in the discussions about this, both internally and discussions directly with Slitherine, I can tell you that the reason given is 100% the reason. No one internally felt it was right and Slitherine felt exactly the same. Right now, we aren't even entertaining the idea of running any tournaments with the already released Black Sea.
At the end of the day, it was an easy decision, despite the significant financial and time investment that had already been made.
Can someone remind me what the planned new CMBS module was going to cover? Something specifically based on current real world situation? Just curious why CMBS main module and CMBS battle pack continues to be sold if company doesn't feel right about releasing new add-ons or even running tournaments with the released content. Completely understand the sensitivity, just confused about the difference.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on January 11, 2024, 04:52:38 PMCan someone remind me what the planned new CMBS module was going to cover? Something specifically based on current real world situation? Just curious why CMBS main module and CMBS battle pack continues to be sold if company doesn't feel right about releasing new add-ons or even running tournaments with the released content. Completely understand the sensitivity, just confused about the difference.
I dont remember the new contend details either.
The problem is that a new DLC, with whatever kind of contend, comes usually with a big marketing campaign, a sale, Let's plays on Twitch and YT and what not, tournaments also attract attention.
while letting CMBS just simmer gently in the myriads of games at Steam doesn't hurt.
if some hater stumbles upon it, and read relased long before the actual war he will realize there is no material for the social media outcry he want to generate.
Quote from: MikeGER on January 12, 2024, 06:27:15 AMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on January 11, 2024, 04:52:38 PMCan someone remind me what the planned new CMBS module was going to cover? Something specifically based on current real world situation? Just curious why CMBS main module and CMBS battle pack continues to be sold if company doesn't feel right about releasing new add-ons or even running tournaments with the released content. Completely understand the sensitivity, just confused about the difference.
I dont remember the new contend details either.
The problem is that a new DLC, with whatever kind of contend, comes usually with a big marketing campaign, a sale, Let's plays on Twitch and YT and what not, tournaments also attract attention.
while letting CMBS just simmer gently in the myriads of games at Steam doesn't hurt.
if some hater stumbles upon it, and read relased long before the actual war he will realize there is no material for the social media outcry he want to generate.
I suppose but the original CMBS module was released around 2015 and there have been some level of conflict between Russia and Ukraine since like 2014. Then the add-on battle pack was released in 2017. And certainly it was big news (amongst the combat mission fans) when Battlefront agreed to release their games with Matrix and Steam (which exposed the game material to a greater audience with marketing), which Black Sea was released around April 2022 right after the start of the latest invasion. So if they wanted to downplay attention or gently let simmer, not sure releasing the game on steam the biggest gaming platform and releasing with matrix one of the biggest war game publishers is the way to go right after the last conflict heated up. On top of that, they have a massive popular thread (where company participates) within the official release CMBS forum about the real world conflict, which in some ways further connects things and increases visibility (or at least keeps the discussion going).
Regardless, certainly the company can choose to do whatever it wants, just seems to be a little inconsistent (at least in my mind) but not a huge deal, the latest content wasn't something on my radar as I don't even know what it was supposed to be anyway.
Black Sea came to Steam end of January 21, the big Russian invasion started 24. Feb 22, so the release on Steam is not a problem
Quote from: MikeGER on January 12, 2024, 07:51:43 AMBlack Sea came to Steam end of January 21, the big Russian invasion started 24. Feb 22, so the release on Steam is not a problem
Ah, gotcha, somehow had 2022 as the release date.
Battlefront originally released Black Sea on 04 Nov 2014, after the takeover of Crimea in February and March.
From the CMBS manual:
Quote� Foreword
Sometime in 2009, we determined the setting for Combat Mission: Black Sea: a fictional future
conflict between NATO, Ukraine, and Russia in the year 2017. A few years later, the details of
this conflict were fleshed out and work began on creating the unique military formations and
equipment that would participate in such a conflict. In the midst of development, the
unthinkable happened, and conflict actually came to Ukraine during the spring of 2014.
After much internal discussion we decided to move forward with the development of Combat
Mission: Black Sea. We prefer that our Combat Mission releases cover historical or fictional
modern topics, and in that regard Black Sea is still a fictional story. However, the previously
written back story for the game was slightly altered to take into account 2014's real life events.
To be clear: Combat Mission: Black Sea is a hypothetical conflict between NATO and Russia
set in 2017, not a depiction of present day events such as the Crimean Crisis or the War in
Donbass.
War in real life is a terrible, horrible thing that should only be embarked upon as an absolute last
resort. Combat Mission: Black Sea is thankfully still a fictional story, and likely to remain so
unless our global leaders and populace collectively lose their minds. The stories that will be
created within this game can serve as a grim reminder of the human cost incurred when
diplomacy and decency fail
Hard to believe the game is almost ten years old. An important update that I have noticed is that the icon on my desktop has changed from an advancing Soviet T type tank to a tank hull with the turret beside it.
Quote from: MikeGER on January 12, 2024, 06:27:15 AMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on January 11, 2024, 04:52:38 PMCan someone remind me what the planned new CMBS module was going to cover? Something specifically based on current real world situation? Just curious why CMBS main module and CMBS battle pack continues to be sold if company doesn't feel right about releasing new add-ons or even running tournaments with the released content. Completely understand the sensitivity, just confused about the difference.
I dont remember the new contend details either.
The problem is that a new DLC, with whatever kind of contend, comes usually with a big marketing campaign, a sale, Let's plays on Twitch and YT and what not, tournaments also attract attention.
while letting CMBS just simmer gently in the myriads of games at Steam doesn't hurt.
if some hater stumbles upon it, and read relased long before the actual war he will realize there is no material for the social media outcry he want to generate.
You've summed it up perfectly. Passively continuing to sell a game that has been out for years is one thing. Being seen as trying to capitalize on the war is another. And from the conversations that I had internally and with my counterparts in England and Italy, beyond what our thoughts were about how it might be viewed by the public, everyone felt it would be........distasteful. It felt wrong.
Quote from: Elvis on January 12, 2024, 03:38:50 PMQuote from: MikeGER on January 12, 2024, 06:27:15 AMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on January 11, 2024, 04:52:38 PMCan someone remind me what the planned new CMBS module was going to cover? Something specifically based on current real world situation? Just curious why CMBS main module and CMBS battle pack continues to be sold if company doesn't feel right about releasing new add-ons or even running tournaments with the released content. Completely understand the sensitivity, just confused about the difference.
I dont remember the new contend details either.
The problem is that a new DLC, with whatever kind of contend, comes usually with a big marketing campaign, a sale, Let's plays on Twitch and YT and what not, tournaments also attract attention.
while letting CMBS just simmer gently in the myriads of games at Steam doesn't hurt.
if some hater stumbles upon it, and read relased long before the actual war he will realize there is no material for the social media outcry he want to generate.
You've summed it up perfectly. Passively continuing to sell a game that has been out for years is one thing. Being seen as trying to capitali on the war is another. And from the conversations that I had internally and with my counterparts in England and Italy, beyond what our thoughts were about how it might be viewed by the public, everyone felt it would be........distasteful. It felt wrong.
I support BF 1000% with this decision.
Quote from: Elvis on January 12, 2024, 03:38:50 PMQuote from: MikeGER on January 12, 2024, 06:27:15 AMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on January 11, 2024, 04:52:38 PMCan someone remind me what the planned new CMBS module was going to cover? Something specifically based on current real world situation? Just curious why CMBS main module and CMBS battle pack continues to be sold if company doesn't feel right about releasing new add-ons or even running tournaments with the released content. Completely understand the sensitivity, just confused about the difference.
I dont remember the new contend details either.
The problem is that a new DLC, with whatever kind of contend, comes usually with a big marketing campaign, a sale, Let's plays on Twitch and YT and what not, tournaments also attract attention.
while letting CMBS just simmer gently in the myriads of games at Steam doesn't hurt.
if some hater stumbles upon it, and read relased long before the actual war he will realize there is no material for the social media outcry he want to generate.
You've summed it up perfectly. Passively continuing to sell a game that has been out for years is one thing. Being seen as trying to capitalize on the war is another. And from the conversations that I had internally and with my counterparts in England and Italy, beyond what our thoughts were about how it might be viewed by the public, everyone felt it would be........distasteful. It felt wrong.
It certainly is a conundrum, I think you guys made the right decision. It would feel wrong.
A little like the Hunger Games is wrong to make gladiators out of innocent people simply for the rich to be entertained.
I wonder if the future though could hold a niche for wargamers where wargamers work on problems real time by running simulations a little like the SETI project does or did.... to help. But then their are all sorts of other moral questions that arise.
Personally I hope that future wars are robotic affairs where the humans role is simply to try to stay out of the way.
The issue isn't primarily a moral or ethical one for me. I don't really look at these games as chiefly a source of entertainment. For me, they are more of an educational or academic tool. Strategic sandboxes to test theories, techniques and doctrine. In fact, I really don't view these titles as games, per se, at all. I like to think the main developers of these titles view the games in much the same light and that although they are certainly running for profit businesses, financial enrichment is not why they are mainly in the industry. If it was, they would probably be making mobile games or twitch shooters. The educational value of these games is enhanced when the actual outcome of the conflict remains uncertain.
With that being said, I think the war in Ukraine is an extremely difficult conflict to model. Little that was theorized for several decades proved to be valid. The incompetence of the Russian military and its many great failures defied most prevailing expectations. For this reason, I now find it very difficult to run any wargame that depicts modern Russian assets as a major conventional threat when confronting western assets of comparable strength. I find that I really have to suspend my disbelief. I also think it would be very challenging to model the current state of the Russian military authentically given the rapid change it has faced in terms of man power and equipment in a relatively short period of time. This problem is compounded by a lack of information coming from the Russian sources. Regardless, to present realistic challenging scenarios to the player, I think in some regard, certain orders of battle and TO&Es would need to be artificially limited or restricted, while others would need to be strengthened. I'm hard pressed to imagine that these issues did not at least factor in some way to the decision making process here.
So to sum up, gaming the war in Ukraine presents a lot of challenges due to a lot of factors and complexities. I think someday, when we have more information, it may be worthwhile and some "what-if" scenarios could also be very informative and interesting. Ultimately, though, I will game any conflict any time and its proximity in time to actual events is not really a factor for me. I think if developers feel strongly about the war and are sensitive to ongoing suffering, rather than avoiding the source material altogether, instead donate a portion of the proceeds from sales to those who have been impacted by the conflict. This would seem to be the most beneficial and positive approach to dealing with these concerns.
Like Jarhead, I play wargames almost entirely for educational and academic purposes. I believe that, when combined with "book learning" and professional experience, wargames give tremendous insight into a conflict and, when done by decision-makers can help them better achieve objectives at lower human cost. As such, wargaming a current conflict doesn't present a moral dilemma. Rather, they can be a positive good.
I agree with both of these comments. Like the actual planning done by military staff, wargaming can be an educational and illuminating method of study and forecasting- which is, indeed, why many actual militaries run "wargaming" sessions (though of course those tend to be basically group role playing activities as opposed to wargaming in the sense we mean here).
The performance of the Russian military in Ukraine is an excellent example of this phenomenon. The fact that the real-world experience of the Russians lagged their "wargame performance" so drastically I think is an extremely valuable insight and forces the question of what the causes of that differntial were. Clearly, there fundamental aspects of its makeup beyond just quantitiative mass and headline-level technology - e.g. logistics, training, secure comms, inter-formation cooperation, doctrine, intelligence accuracy, EW, SEAD capabilities (the list could go on for pages and pages) that caused the Russian armed forces to be far less effectivein real-world combat than they were understood to be by both sides pre-invasion. Wargaming throws these contrasts into stark relief and thus I think highlights extremely important real-world lessons and takeaways that become impossible to ignore with regard to military capabilities and which will likely influence the planning of both sides in future conflicts. I would argue in fact for this reason that there is no better (simulated) learning tool for military affairs.
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on January 14, 2024, 10:56:12 AMI agree with both of these comments. Like the actual planning done by military staff, wargaming can be an educational and illuminating method of study and forecasting- which is, indeed, why many actual militaries run "wargaming" sessions (though of course those tend to be basically group role playing activities as opposed to wargaming in the sense we mean here).
The performance of the Russian military in Ukraine is an excellent example of this phenomenon. The fact that the real-world experience of the Russians lagged their "wargame performance" so drastically I think is an extremely valuable insight and forces the question of what the causes of that differntial were. Clearly, there fundamental aspects of its makeup beyond just quantitiative mass and headline-level technology - e.g. logistics, training, secure comms, inter-formation cooperation, doctrine, intelligence accuracy, EW, SEAD capabilities (the list could go on for pages and pages) that caused the Russian armed forces to be far less effectivein real-world combat than they were understood to be by both sides pre-invasion. Wargaming throws these contrasts into stark relief and thus I think highlights extremely important real-world lessons and takeaways that become impossible to ignore with regard to military capabilities and which will likely influence the planning of both sides in future conflicts. I would argue in fact for this reason that there is no better (simulated) learning tool for military affairs.
With professional-level wargaming, I think you need to do a couple of things: 1) validate your games through real world exercises, and similarly, inform your gaming assumptions with those real world exercises. 2) as a corollary, conduct realistic "real world" exercises and be honest about the results so that the wargaming conforms as accurately as possible to reality; 3) In the wargame, state your assumptions up front and clearly. If you do these things, then professional-level gaming can provide insights.
NOTICE: THE FOLLOWING IS A THREAD HIJACK:
If the concept of professional level gaming is of interest to you, consider joining USA Fight Club (https://www.usafight.club/) or UK Fight Club or one of our international affilates.
(https://www.fightclubinternational.org/) The mission of the club is
" to improve members' thinking, decision-making, and warfighting abilities through gaming experiences that are realistic, challenging, and fun. The Club will provide a network and resources for a diverse body of civilian, government, academic and military professionals to explore and experiment with all types of games to educate, compete, train, and analyze the full spectrum of conflict warfare, to illuminate methods, concepts and capabilities that would be useful to ally and partner governments and militaries. The Club will advocate for wargaming in professional environments." Right now, we are finishing up our Flashpoint Campaign Southern Storm tournament, where we are doing the evaluations based on the plan and lessons learned from the scenario, instead of simply based on the game scores.
NOTICE: THE THEAD HIJACK HAS BEEN TERMINATED. THE MODERATORS HAVE REGAINED CONTROL OF THE THREAD. :laugh:
We have a professional wargaming subforum. Please post this this there in its own topic so it does not get lost. It is down in the Game Forge Section.
Thanks!
I have read of one example where wargaming (as we know it) was used contemporaneously to solve a real-world tactical problem. This was in the Battle of the Atlantic, when Royal Navy backroom staff constructed a wargame, complete with miniatures, in order to work out and defeat the tactics of the U-Boat wolfpacks. Destroyer captains on shore leave were ordered to play the game in order to learn coordinated manouevres - and it worked.
On the topic of not representing recent/current conflicts in wargames, I think it's just a common human reaction. There's no rational argument against it, but it seems to be a tacit agreement, and I have no problem with BF not wishing to appear to be disrespectful by swimming against the tide of public sentiment.
It's weird. I have no problem simulating the current conflict in the Red Sea with Command Modern Operations. Yet I support BF's position regarding CMBS. Maybe air and naval simulation is inherently different from an unprovoked land invasion, with all the destruction and suffering resulting. Totally get and agree with JH's assessment. Same holds true for me regarding the use of these "games" as sort of intellectual investigation.
Thumbs up to JH, I was thinking the same thing on all points.
I also get where's he's coming from with the donate the proceeds to Ukraine humanitarian aid. I mean if bf is going to take the moral high ground, why not go the full measure and remove it from sale, or donate the proceeds to humanitarian aid. Thus the slippery slope. Tbh, I would have supported BF either way they play it, at least they took it into consideration.
Quote from: Elvis on January 11, 2024, 01:15:55 PMAs one of the people that was actually a participent in the discussions about this, both internally and discussions directly with Slitherine, I can tell you that the reason given is 100% the reason. No one internally felt it was right and Slitherine felt exactly the same. Right now, we aren't even entertaining the idea of running any tournaments with the already released Black Sea.
At the end of the day, it was an easy decision, despite the significant financial and time investment that had already been made.
Good answer, thank you. That Zulu96 guy could learn a thing or two about civil discussions from you. ;-)
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 14, 2024, 06:30:40 AMThe issue isn't primarily a moral or ethical one for me. I don't really look at these games as chiefly a source of entertainment. For me, they are more of an educational or academic tool. Strategic sandboxes to test theories, techniques and doctrine. In fact, I really don't view these titles as games, per se, at all. I like to think the main developers of these titles view the games in much the same light and that although they are certainly running for profit businesses, financial enrichment is not why they are mainly in the industry. If it was, they would probably be making mobile games or twitch shooters. The educational value of these games is enhanced when the actual outcome of the conflict remains uncertain.
Well said.
QuoteWith that being said, I think the war in Ukraine is an extremely difficult conflict to model. Little that was theorized for several decades proved to be valid. The incompetence of the Russian military and its many great failures defied most prevailing expectations. For this reason, I now find it very difficult to run any wargame that depicts modern Russian assets as a major conventional threat when confronting western assets of comparable strength. I find that I really have to suspend my disbelief. I also think it would be very challenging to model the current state of the Russian military authentically given the rapid change it has faced in terms of man power and equipment in a relatively short period of time. This problem is compounded by a lack of information coming from the Russian sources. Regardless, to present realistic challenging scenarios to the player, I think in some regard, certain orders of battle and TO&Es would need to be artificially limited or restricted, while others would need to be strengthened. I'm hard pressed to imagine that these issues did not at least factor in some way to the decision making process here.
So to sum up, gaming the war in Ukraine presents a lot of challenges due to a lot of factors and complexities. I think someday, when we have more information, it may be worthwhile and some "what-if" scenarios could also be very informative and interesting. Ultimately, though, I will game any conflict any time and its proximity in time to actual events is not really a factor for me.
This is kind of what I was trying to get at as far as BFC's ability to 'accurately' portray this ongoing conflict. Add to what you stated, I don't think people know half as much as what they think they are learning from TikTok videos of tanks going through minefields. Russia and Ukraine are both master propagandists. Russia wants to promote an image of power and invincibility and Ukraine wants to as well at the same time appealling for more money, which is counter to the first aim of looking like they don't need it. So I'm dubious (sorry - cynical, per Zulu007) about any claims to accuracy since I have a feeling we'll be learning new things about what actually happened on the battlefields for decades.
Canada finally released their official history of the war in Afghanistan just a couple of months ago, almost 10 years to the day the last troops left. Who knows when the war in Ukraine will even end, and given the tensions that will probably prevail there, who knows how long it will take to see accurate reporting of the war. The Soviet archives remained sealed for decades due to the Cold War and (understandable) unwillingness to share historical info. However the war in Ukraine ends, I have to believe Russia will feel the same way.
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on January 17, 2024, 07:44:28 AMQuote from: Elvis on January 11, 2024, 01:15:55 PMAs one of the people that was actually a participent in the discussions about this, both internally and discussions directly with Slitherine, I can tell you that the reason given is 100% the reason. No one internally felt it was right and Slitherine felt exactly the same. Right now, we aren't even entertaining the idea of running any tournaments with the already released Black Sea.
At the end of the day, it was an easy decision, despite the significant financial and time investment that had already been made.
Good answer, thank you. That Zulu96 guy could learn a thing or two about civil discussions from you. ;-)
LOL. In relation to Jarheads post about the old Wargamer forum it seems you haven't changed in all that time.
I have though and have not the inclination, energy or interest in engaging.
Just a heads up...at Matrix, all Combat Mission games 50% off through January 22nd. Might be a good time to pick some things up if you don't already own.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on January 19, 2024, 01:06:10 PMJust a heads up...at Matrix, all Combat Mission games 50% off through January 22nd. Might be a good time to pick some things up if you don't already own.
What is this "don't already own" you speak of?
Looks like same discount at Battlefront store as well, if people prefer that.....
47 American dollars for Red Thunder Complete...today looks like the day.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on January 19, 2024, 01:06:10 PMJust a heads up...at Matrix, all Combat Mission games 50% off through January 22nd. Might be a good time to pick some things up if you don't already own.
BFC's own store price-matches.
Quote from: Redwolf on January 19, 2024, 03:11:22 PMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on January 19, 2024, 01:06:10 PMJust a heads up...at Matrix, all Combat Mission games 50% off through January 22nd. Might be a good time to pick some things up if you don't already own.
BFC's own store price-matches.
Yep couple posts up I mention that:)
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on January 19, 2024, 03:16:15 PMQuote from: Redwolf on January 19, 2024, 03:11:22 PMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on January 19, 2024, 01:06:10 PMJust a heads up...at Matrix, all Combat Mission games 50% off through January 22nd. Might be a good time to pick some things up if you don't already own.
BFC's own store price-matches.
Yep couple posts up I mention that:)
Which is only kinda-sorta true likely due to Battlefront's frequent messing up sale prices. Depending on what one is looking for, it is very easy to pay way more than necessary at current Battlefront prices.
i.e. Steam and Matrix/Slitherine prices seem to be within a dollar or two from each other regardless of which game, module, or package you are considering. Battlefront, on the other hand, has Fortress Italy prices pretty comparable, but the complete Red Thunder bundle is still listed at $95, where it is just over $47 on the other two.
I bring this up because I have seen this same odd pricing on various titles several times before during sales from them.
I think the only thing I was missing was Commonwealth for Normandy, and the two Red Thunder expansions, so I snagged those pronto! Weird that I didn't do that during the stacked Christmas sale/anniversary discount tho...
Updated to add: then I got paranoid that I had in fact already gotten them back after Christmas, but I just checked and I hadn't. Whew!
Looks like the final Combat Mission module coming to Steam January 25th, along with the new DLC.
Combat Mission: Final Blitzkrieg!
To be released January 25th on Steam!
The Final Chapter
Combat Mission Final Blitzkrieg (CMFB) follows the Western Allies through the battles along Germany's border and into the heart of the Reich.
The game covers the October 1944 through January 1945 timeframe, focusing on the American sector of the Battle of the Bulge.
The DLC Combat Mission: Final Blitzkrieg - Downfall will be released on the same day. This DLC features late-war British, Canadian, and Polish forces.
Heh, I suspected it must be coming soon with the big discount on preceding CMx2 titles!
Quote from: Sigwolf on January 19, 2024, 10:21:13 PMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on January 19, 2024, 03:16:15 PMQuote from: Redwolf on January 19, 2024, 03:11:22 PMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on January 19, 2024, 01:06:10 PMJust a heads up...at Matrix, all Combat Mission games 50% off through January 22nd. Might be a good time to pick some things up if you don't already own.
BFC's own store price-matches.
Yep couple posts up I mention that:)
Which is only kinda-sorta true likely due to Battlefront's frequent messing up sale prices. Depending on what one is looking for, it is very easy to pay way more than necessary at current Battlefront prices.
i.e. Steam and Matrix/Slitherine prices seem to be within a dollar or two from each other regardless of which game, module, or package you are considering. Battlefront, on the other hand, has Fortress Italy prices pretty comparable, but the complete Red Thunder bundle is still listed at $95, where it is just over $47 on the other two.
I bring this up because I have seen this same odd pricing on various titles several times before during sales from them.
Nuts! I missed that one.
I try to mirror what they do. But if they do sumfink for $24.99 I'll put it on ours for $25.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on January 20, 2024, 08:22:38 AMLooks like the final Combat Mission module coming to Steam January 25th, along with the new DLC.
Combat Mission: Final Blitzkrieg!
To be released January 25th on Steam!
The Final Chapter
Combat Mission Final Blitzkrieg (CMFB) follows the Western Allies through the battles along Germany's border and into the heart of the Reich.
The game covers the October 1944 through January 1945 timeframe, focusing on the American sector of the Battle of the Bulge.
The DLC Combat Mission: Final Blitzkrieg - Downfall will be released on the same day. This DLC features late-war British, Canadian, and Polish forces.
Probably the fastest pre-order to release so far. As a hint to when it was actually finished....Steam takes about 2 weeks to give approval.
Quote from: Elvis on January 21, 2024, 12:59:06 PMNuts! I missed that one.
I try to mirror what they do. But if they do sumfink for $24.99 I'll put it on ours for $25.
Thanks for correcting the Red Thunder bundle. Luckily I had procrastinated getting it on Matrix, so I will buy from Battlefront this evening.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on January 17, 2024, 01:30:15 PMIn relation to Jarheads post about the old Wargamer forum it seems you haven't changed in all that time.
I don't remember posting much at the Wargamer - other than mocking Curtis Szmania's weird farewell. Come to think of it, his bye bye speech was so Trumpian it may well have been the actual start to that entire political movement. Any of us would do well to be half as interesting as him. :-)
Quote from: Elvis on January 21, 2024, 12:59:06 PMI try to mirror what they do. But if they do sumfink for $24.99 I'll put it on ours for $25.
:shocked:
Typical BFC price-gouging. Disgusting. My outrage knows no limits.
I'm going to presume the experiment of going to Steam has been a success though, even cynical me was persuaded to re-purchase a title or two just to get it on that platform. Easier than trying to remember where I stored my receipts with the keys. Glad to see this is working out.
Quote from: Father Ted on January 14, 2024, 01:06:00 PMI have read of one example where wargaming (as we know it) was used contemporaneously to solve a real-world tactical problem. This was in the Battle of the Atlantic, when Royal Navy backroom staff constructed a wargame, complete with miniatures, in order to work out and defeat the tactics of the U-Boat wolfpacks. Destroyer captains on shore leave were ordered to play the game in order to learn coordinated manouevres - and it worked.
...
This free book from Naval War College Press may be of interest regarding the historical use of wargaming to solve problems, especially Part I: https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&context=newport-papers
Was able to download Combat Mission: Final Blitzkrieg! and Downfall this morning, including to getting Steam key.
Downloading Downfall now.
Had Final Blitzkrieg already but through Battlefront so jumped thru the hoops to activate it on Steam and purchased Downfall as well. Now I just need to motivate myself to start playing them again. Used to love playing them PBEM.
Got Final Blitzkrieg activated at Matrix, then at Steam, woo!
Will probably hold off on Downfall until the Hitler memes arrive. Or my stacked discount returns later this year.
What kind of updates to the game engine are there for Downfall and Final Blitzkrieg?
Quote from: Gusington on January 26, 2024, 12:38:54 PMWhat kind of updates to the game engine are there for Downfall and Final Blitzkrieg?
NIL. A few new bugs, though.
:buck2:
Quote from: Gusington on January 26, 2024, 12:38:54 PMWhat kind of updates to the game engine are there for Downfall and Final Blitzkrieg?
********************************
v2.10 PATCH NOTES
********************************
ADDED
* All content for the Downfall module.
* Slitherine's PBEM++ and Tournament systems
Part 2 of the news thread is out:
https://community.battlefront.com/topic/143385-the-year-to-come-2024-part-2/#comment-2025652
Nothing specific, just that there is something unexpected in the works.
Quote from: Redwolf on February 03, 2024, 02:51:17 PMPart 2 of the news thread is out:
https://community.battlefront.com/topic/143385-the-year-to-come-2024-part-2/#comment-2025652
Nothing specific, just that there is something unexpected in the works.
And the owner said that even though there might be a 1,000 guesses, at best one of them might be right which likely means something totally outside of what people might guess. The typical guesses seem to be new version/engine, patch updates, new dlc/module, new series/war to cover, etc. I would find it hard to believe it would be a totally new something that renders current content useless as they continue releasing content for the new version and spent a lot of time putting current stuff on to steam. Maybe Version #3 set in totally different setting and the difficulty of guessing is the combination of version and exact setting. Personally no idea, too many possibilities and really no indication if something big or small.
He said they would have more information in a couple of months, guess we will see, but wouldn't be totally surprised if we didn't find out until 2025 news breaks based on history.
Hm, off the wall guesses... pick any exotic mod of CMx1?
How about something even more off model than any of those, like a Civil War tactical game?!
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 04, 2024, 03:11:24 PMHm, off the wall guesses... pick any exotic mod of CMx1?
How about something even more off model than any of those, like a Civil War tactical game?!
When Steve says you won't guess, he means it.
Remember when they launched Combat Mission Touch on April 1st one year, and everyone thought it had to be an April Fool's joke?
Combat Mission: Afghanistan came from out the blue. So did Combat Mission: Campaigns, which sadly never materialized.
Your guess of "off model" is probably 100% accurate. :-)
My guess:
Combat Mission: Vietnam
or
Combat Mission: Korea
Combat Mission: Leisure Suit Larry? :TimeOut:
Combat Mission: 1919 Allied Intervention in the Russian Civil War
Been a few months since it was hinted we would find out about something unexpected coming....
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on May 09, 2024, 06:29:53 PMBeen a few months since it was hinted we would find out about something unexpected coming....
Just as long as it's not that Space Lobsters thing again...
Quote from: ArizonaTank on May 09, 2024, 09:43:03 PMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on May 09, 2024, 06:29:53 PMBeen a few months since it was hinted we would find out about something unexpected coming....
Just as long as it's not that Space Lobsters thing again...
At this point, might be up for that game as long as something new from them:)
Yeah, the silence gets annoying.
What new products we had lately amounts to -what- 2 tanks in CMFB.
Hopefully the Cold War module is well underway.
Space Lobsters?
A brand new social version called a multiplayer engine upgrade that allows coop play? :)
An AI that no longer follows a random choice of 3 predetermined paths?
Space Lobsters: Good. Space Crabs: Very Bad. :HideEyes: I'd kill for an updated Line of Sight tool.
Quote from: Gusington on May 10, 2024, 09:14:21 AMSpace Lobsters?
Years ago, back in the days of CM Shock Force 1 I believe, BF Steve (I believe), with the usual acerbic stabs at the CM fanbase, started saying something like the next game would be 'CM in space' with "Space Lobsters." At first, nobody was sure if it was a joke or not.
The irony is, of course, that he said he didn't want to throw any premature announcements out there, because they would raise unreasonable expectations in the community, and yet he did and now there are
Quote from: Father Ted on May 10, 2024, 05:59:43 PMThe irony is, of course, that he said he didn't want to throw any premature announcements out there, because they would raise unreasonable expectations in the community, and yet he did and now there are
Hilariously enough, as I recall, the whole "no more premature announcements" thing was because they announced release months and then missed them without any notice multiple times in a row. Apparently putting out a "Hey, we're gonna need to delay this" sometime during the month when it becomes clear you won't hit the deadline is just too much to manage.
Quote from: Destraex on May 10, 2024, 09:37:25 AMA brand new social version called a multiplayer engine upgrade that allows coop play? :)
An AI that no longer follows a random choice of 3 predetermined paths?
I'd love for combat mission coop. It can't be that hard, if you can connect for pvp, how hard can it be to have two players on the same side against AI ? This is why I love and hate battlefront.
https://www.matrixgames.com/news/combat-mission-battle-for-normandy-battle-pack-2-out-on-d-day
I hope that wasn't the new game they were teasing...
The "Space Lobsters of Doom" meme is much older than CMSF. It was around during CMBO times.
Quote from: al_infierno on May 10, 2024, 06:10:40 PMQuote from: Father Ted on May 10, 2024, 05:59:43 PMThe irony is, of course, that he said he didn't want to throw any premature announcements out there, because they would raise unreasonable expectations in the community, and yet he did and now there are
Hilariously enough, as I recall, the whole "no more premature announcements" thing was because they announced release months and then missed them without any notice multiple times in a row. Apparently putting out a "Hey, we're gonna need to delay this" sometime during the month when it becomes clear you won't hit the deadline is just too much to manage.
Seems like the main person over there only posts on the Ukraine War thread over there, don't see much other communication in relation to their products.
Battle Pack 2 for CM: Normandy is set to be released on...wait for it...June 6.
QuoteBattle Pack 2 is a brand new dlc for Combat Mission Battle for Normandy. Be ready to fight through the D-Day, spacing from the night drop to secure Sainte Marie du Mont, to Carentan and more. Play the key engagement from the early breakthrough corridor on the east side of the beach landing. Battle Pack 2 follows the actions of the 4th Infantry Division and the 101st Airborne Division through to the 13th of June 1944.
The game also features an a-historical German campaign to retake Carentan, 8 standalone scenarios, 3 campaigns for 21 variant scenarios and 6 master maps that cover 63.7 square kilometers of ground.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 04, 2024, 03:58:25 PMBattle Pack 2 for CM: Normandy is set to be released on...wait for it...June 6.
QuoteBattle Pack 2 is a brand new dlc for Combat Mission Battle for Normandy. Be ready to fight through the D-Day, spacing from the night drop to secure Sainte Marie du Mont, to Carentan and more. Play the key engagement from the early breakthrough corridor on the east side of the beach landing. Battle Pack 2 follows the actions of the 4th Infantry Division and the 101st Airborne Division through to the 13th of June 1944.
The game also features an a-historical German campaign to retake Carentan, 8 standalone scenarios, 3 campaigns for 21 variant scenarios and 6 master maps that cover 63.7 square kilometers of ground.
It's been weird as they haven't even made available in their own store front yet, but have announced via Matrix. Always thought in the past they allowed pre orders and listed in their own store, unless with the Matrix relationship everything will only be there now.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 04, 2024, 03:58:25 PMBattle Pack 2 for CM: Normandy is set to be released on...wait for it...June 6.
QuoteBattle Pack 2 is a brand new dlc for Combat Mission Battle for Normandy. Be ready to fight through the D-Day, spacing from the night drop to secure Sainte Marie du Mont, to Carentan and more. Play the key engagement from the early breakthrough corridor on the east side of the beach landing. Battle Pack 2 follows the actions of the 4th Infantry Division and the 101st Airborne Division through to the 13th of June 1944.
The game also features an a-historical German campaign to retake Carentan, 8 standalone scenarios, 3 campaigns for 21 variant scenarios and 6 master maps that cover 63.7 square kilometers of ground.
One of the few insta-buys for me anymore.
Not that thrilled. I like trying out new vehicles.
These "Charles-free" expansions are not very useful to me.
on a side note,
people should know, that as like for Battlepack 1, you also need the Vehicle Pack to be installed for to run Battlepack 2 !
Vehicle Pack is about suddenly additional 22 Euro to the investment to play that new DLC
I would have thouhgt in the long time after the Battlefront release of that rather 'exotic pack' this would have been somehow included in Battlepack 2 DLC or as a very good Bundle offer with the new Battlepack or a special large release discount on that very item
Actually on Steam they mention a number of prerequisites to getting the new dlc... .
Battlepack Prerequisites
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy v4.04 base game
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy – Commonwealth Forces module
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy – Market Garden module
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy – Vehicle Pack
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on June 05, 2024, 04:25:07 AMActually on Steam they mention a number of prerequisites to getting the new dlc... .
Battlepack Prerequisites
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy v4.04 base game
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy – Commonwealth Forces module
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy – Market Garden module
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy – Vehicle Pack
I think that's fair enough. Would want to use all the toys available.
I own them all so no big deal for me, but for people who don't just could be a decent investment to get it all
Just bought at Battlefront site for $9, registered on Matrix and got my Steam key and was able to redeem on Steam. Good to go.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on June 05, 2024, 04:25:07 AMActually on Steam they mention a number of prerequisites to getting the new dlc... .
Battlepack Prerequisites
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy v4.04 base game
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy – Commonwealth Forces module
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy – Market Garden module
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy – Vehicle Pack
Quote from: MikeGER on June 05, 2024, 03:00:05 AMon a side note,
people should know, that as like for Battlepack 1, you also need the Vehicle Pack to be installed for to run Battlepack 2 !
Vehicle Pack is about suddenly additional 22 Euro to the investment to play that new DLC
I would have thouhgt in the long time after the Battlefront release of that rather 'exotic pack' this would have been somehow included in Battlepack 2 DLC or as a very good Bundle offer with the new Battlepack or a special large release discount on that very item
It's been a trend with releases on Matrix and Steam to put the exisitng titles on sale for exactly this reason. The list that Grim.Reaper provided, plus Battle Pack 1 are on sale for $72. In my opinion, that's a lot of value for 72 bucks.
A brief note about the "why". Modules introduced formations, weapons, vehicles and only requiring that the players own the base game. Battle Packs take ALL available units for a game and put them to work in a way that modules can't because they are limited to just the base game and the module.
Ya like the release date, Jarhead? Yeah, we've never done that before but we were close to being finished and Slitherine asked if we thought we'd have it done for a June 6th release, so we went for it. Next up should be a Pack for Fortress Italy this fall. Any dates that stand out to you that we should keep in mind? :ThumbsUp:
Quote from: Elvis on June 06, 2024, 11:48:20 AMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on June 05, 2024, 04:25:07 AMActually on Steam they mention a number of prerequisites to getting the new dlc... .
Battlepack Prerequisites
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy v4.04 base game
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy – Commonwealth Forces module
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy – Market Garden module
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy – Vehicle Pack
Quote from: MikeGER on June 05, 2024, 03:00:05 AMon a side note,
people should know, that as like for Battlepack 1, you also need the Vehicle Pack to be installed for to run Battlepack 2 !
Vehicle Pack is about suddenly additional 22 Euro to the investment to play that new DLC
I would have thouhgt in the long time after the Battlefront release of that rather 'exotic pack' this would have been somehow included in Battlepack 2 DLC or as a very good Bundle offer with the new Battlepack or a special large release discount on that very item
...
Ya like the release date, Jarhead? Yeah, we've never done that before but we were close to being finished and Slitherine asked if we thought we'd have it done for a June 6th release, so we went for it. Next up should be a Pack for Fortress Italy this fall. Any dates that stand out to you that we should keep in mind? :ThumbsUp:
3 September-OPERATION BAYTOWN (The UK move across the Straits of Messina to start the invasion of Italy) or 9 September (OPERATION SLAPSTICK and OPERATION AVALANCHE) which started the main invasion of Italy
I had just learnd about the sales
got Vehical Pack and Battlepack 1 with 50% and the new Battlepack 2 with 10% off
and in addition 10% on that purchase if bought as a bundle
so payed only 22.73 € for all that stuff
a good offer :ThumbsUp:
Quote from: MikeGER on June 06, 2024, 06:36:07 PMI had just learnd about the sales
got Vehical Pack and Battlepack 1 with 50% and the new Battlepack 2 with 10% off
and in addition 10% on that purchase if bought as a bundle
so payed only 22.73 € for all that stuff
a good offer :ThumbsUp:
Thank you for this Mike - just purchased :cool:
I'll probably jump on as well. Combat Mission is my abusive spouse that bitch-slaps me straight everytime I get out of line and I just keep going back. Maybe this time, it'll really love me.
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 07, 2024, 10:22:24 PMI'll probably jump on as well. Combat Mission is my abusive spouse that bitch-slaps me straight everytime I get out of line and I just keep going back. Maybe this time, it'll really love me.
The abusive spouse is up front and direct about it. Combat Mission uses the "keyhole-shot-into-your-side-armor" technique. :laugh:
Very true Trip. These :stormtrooper2: NEVER miss.