Got this game at a Steam sale a while back and while I am waiting to hear about Commander: The Great War getting patched, I fired it up tonight and played two levels. It has a great period feel that I really wasn't expecting...in fact, I'm not sure what I was expecting. Graphics are appropriately sepia toned (if you want them to be), the music is great, and there are a load of WWI weapons modeled, pretty realistically too...guns have maximum range, heavier weapons have to be aimed appropriately, etc. Even armored cars, early tanks and aircraft are modeled.
For my first couple of levels I manned a howitzer crew, a mortar team and a machine gun, as the British. I mowed down wave after wave of German infantry and then it hit me...even though the soldiers are modeled as 'toys'...when hit they spin around like tops or blow apart in a shower of gears and there is no blood per se...Toy Soldiers struck me as a sad game.
Not sad in its production because the quality is there. But I think it's sad because it portrays the mowing down of 100s if not 1000s of people. I understand that the whole premise is that they are toys, not real people but the physics and appearance of the game is too realistic to just dismiss.
I don't know...maybe I'm overly sensitive to begin with, or maybe the game uses settings that just look and sound too real, or maybe its because I am reading Guns of August....I don't know. Toy Soldiers is obviously well produced but maybe too much so?
The war was 100 years ago (almost) but I can't help but be filled with a feeling of melancholy when playing Toy Soldiers. Maybe I'm just being ridiculous.
Thoughts?
I really like the game for a quick relaxer....however, really never got the sense of it being too real for me. I enjoy playing the sniper role in this one, but other roles are fun too.
I've always enjoyed tower defense games and toy soldiers so this was a fun combination for me. But now you've gone and brought the mood down Gus. :P
Way to be a bummer, Gus.
Maybe I'm being too sensitive. The whole view I posted above can obviously be said for our entire hobby. But WWI is a particularly sad war. Should just take off my skirt, STFU and blow away some krauts?
Dude, it's army men. Lighten up- have a few beers and just chill already.
I know, but that's my point. I'm seeing more there than just army men.
Quote from: Gusington on November 29, 2012, 10:28:56 PM
Maybe I'm being too sensitive. The whole view I posted above can obviously be said for our entire hobby. But WWI is a particularly sad war. Should just take off my skirt, STFU and blow away some krauts?
yes!
thought Im evidently not supposed to tell you to STFU. ::)
Quote from: Gusington on November 29, 2012, 09:58:15 PM
Maybe I'm just being ridiculous.
Thoughts?
+1 :'(
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.istockimg.com%2Ffile_thumbview_approve%2F10026585%2F2%2Fstock-photo-10026585-man-playing-violin.jpg&hash=a5171c046e13c54a12f7c05b64b344d5c05b1bf5)
I have the game and play it for a relaxer. I do not think, Gus, that they meant
for you to be reading Barbara Tuchman while playing army men. Do not read "What Price Glory"
or any other of them depressers and do not watch "Gallipoli".
Try this on for size.... it is free
http://download.cnet.com/The-You-Testament/3000-2097_4-10907896.html
This might lighten things up. It has fighting!
QuoteMaybe I'm being too sensitive. The whole view I posted above can obviously be said for our entire hobby. But WWI is a particularly sad war. Should just take off my skirt, STFU and blow away some krauts?
Good that I'm not that sensitive being a Kraut myself... ;)
The game is great, here's are my thoughts about it: http://wargamecenter.wordpress.com/2010/10/14/review-toy-soldiers-a-diorama-coming-alive/ (http://wargamecenter.wordpress.com/2010/10/14/review-toy-soldiers-a-diorama-coming-alive/)
Unfortunately the Cold War game is not fun anymore because they actually broke the tower defense part with the introduction of the overpowered Hero :(
Gus I know how you feel; I've had similar feelings from time to time. As said above, it kind of goes with the territory when you play wargames. My advice is that if it's bothering you at the moment, just leave it alone for a while. It's probably mood-related - come back to it in a week or two and you'll feel differently.
Quote from: Gusington on November 29, 2012, 10:36:27 PM
I know, but that's my point. I'm seeing more there than just army men.
Not sure I see it with Toy Soldiers as a game - but if you do thats fine. To me, your feeling is the value of our hobby, and why those outside of it who call us warmongers are so ingnorant and wrong. Whos more likely to rush off to a real one ? Them - who know nothing of the sacrifice it entails - or us. That you have those feelings only suggests to me you are a deep thinking person who sees the value of our hobby in teaching history and more importantly serves as a reminder to those who sacrificed for us. I often stop sometimes after a particularly costly assault in combat mission and think - jesus - people did this for real. When most people these days dont even know when it started and ended, dont belittle your feeling - it is what the true value of our hobby is. Remembrance.
Thanks guys for the above couple of posts...ts been a while since I have felt like this, not sure why a light game llike Toy Soldiers has brought it out...must be the reading I am doing as posted above.
You might be interested to read a piece by the excellent Tim Stone that appeared in his Flare Path column on Rock Paper Shotgun last year:
Heavily Engaged: Grognard Guilt (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/06/06/heavily-engaged-grognard-guilt/)
...and the ensuing discussion in the comments section underneath. Not sure whether it will help, but it reinforces the point that we all go through this sometimes.
Play The Sims 3 until you feel better about it. :D
Love the comments by Huw and Zulu. I couldn't have said it any better myself.
Gus I think you're feeling those feelings because you're reading Guns of August. Barbara Tuchman does an outstanding job capturing the feeling of desperation as well as the end of one era and the beginnings of a new era. She brilliantly describes how everyone marched off to war with this notion of being on an idealistic crusade but that feeling was crushed within the first month of fighting. The world that was came to an end and for the next four years a new world would be forged at the expense of so many millions. Fast forward to today and I see a similar pattern. The old ways of thinking are quickly being replaced by something sinister IMHO. What that sinister is I don't know but my gut tells me something is not right.
Anyway, don't stop playing games that make you feel sad. Don't stop. Why? Because these games remind us of how evil man can be and that we must not forget that fact. Playing these games helps remind us the importance of doing good. Am I being sappy? NO. I am maintaining my compassion by not being afraid to talk about feelings such as what you're experiencing now with Toy Soldiers.
Well said, W8.
If you played this game and gleefully mowed down thousands
thinking of the lovely carnage and the lives ended and blighted
there would be something wrong with you. The fact that it provokes
a kind of melancholy is a reflection of your own humanity.
But they aren't really toy soldiers. They are electric images of imaginary toy
soldiers in a toy box on a screen in your office where you are sitting in your
underwear smoking dope and guzzling mega cans of sweet, sweet beer!
This is an affirmation of life no matter how perverted.
Protect you toy box!! That is your mission.
That is a better way to look at it....and great post abobe W8.
Another bit I recall is that I never feel this way with sims, since humans are represented in a much smaller scale.
Huw I actually did read that RPS piece when it was first posted...I think it explains what I felt well.
Gus - Warlock!
Quote from: bob48 on November 30, 2012, 02:19:20 PM
Gus - Warlock!
No love for dragons & giants!
Send waves of your goblins against their machineguns, to die! (Beeeest archuuurrs in da wurrrr *splat*!)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffreeemoticonsandsmileys.com%2Fanimated%2520emoticons%2FEvil%2520Animated%2520Emoticons%2Fyellow%2520one.gif&hash=c1f568b456ecc8777b582c41dcee2b161672baef)
*splat*?
Surely its *zwiiiish--ker-thunk!*
I think worrying about this sort of thing is a perfectly natural, and indeed healthy, reaction. With respect I'd say that people who say, "but it's only a videogame" are missing the point. The activity in the game triggers thoughts about what actually went on. Your melancholy maybe misplaced with respect to a knockabout time-filler, but that doesn't make thinking about the actual events of WW1 wrong.
There was a thread over on the Rise of Flight forums recently which had a similar theme - something along the lines of "if horses were modeled properly would you shoot them?" Some people took it at face value and said, "Well if it helps the war effort...", or "I couldn't bring myself to do that". Quite a few said,"Why are you even asking this, it's just a videogame?".
My feeling is that if you don't feel some sort of emotional charge when playing games, then why bother? Obviously you can't really care about the"fate" of virtual people (or livestock), but I think it's entirely reasonable to imagine how you might feel and behave if they were real. That to me is the essence of games playing - experiencing by proxy situations which you would (hopefully in most cases) never meet in real life and having the chance to try them out without consequence.
But that shouldn't stop you thinking about those situations and the people who endured them .
Great post, Father. Are you really a priest?
And eerie coincidence but there are horses in Toy Soldiers too and I did think about mowing them down in the same way as you describe above.
You should give Spec Ops: The Line a whirl. The gameplay is nothing special, but the game itself is very interesting. It uses Heart of Darkness/Apocalypse Now as a template. The game starts off almost as a cliche with a team of stereotypical, tough as nails Delta operators dropped into Dubai after its been destroyed by a series of sandstorms. The tone of the game subtely changes as you progress and puts you in a lot of no-win situations. The change of tone is very well done and subtle enough that you might not even notice a lot of the visual and audio queues. By the end, you almost get a sense that the game designers are actively conspiring against you in an effort to get you to think about the nature of war and the nature of violence in games.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/6021-Spec-Ops-The-Line (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/6021-Spec-Ops-The-Line)
http://ca.ign.com/videos/2012/06/22/spec-ops-the-line-beyond-the-line-part-1 (http://ca.ign.com/videos/2012/06/22/spec-ops-the-line-beyond-the-line-part-1)
EDIT: I just found this article discussing the design decisions behind the game. Fascinating reading but it is full of spoilers so you should give it a miss until after you've played. It has made me want to go and play though the game again just to see what I missed in my initial playthrough. It sounds like I missed a lot.
***SPOILERS***
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2012/07/20/the-story-secrets-of-spec-ops-the-line (http://ca.ign.com/articles/2012/07/20/the-story-secrets-of-spec-ops-the-line)
Quote from: Father Ted on November 30, 2012, 07:47:01 PM
Obviously you can't really care about the"fate" of virtual people (or livestock), but I think it's entirely reasonable to imagine how you might feel and behave if they were real.
I can't help but do this when I play some games. In
Sins of a Solar Empire I will, without even thinking about it, do everything I can to prevent one of my planets being wiped out - even if it incurs massive fleet losses. Or if a capital ship is destroyed I'll do my best to avenge the crew, even if it makes no tactical sense to do so.
I think this is all perfectly natural, and as Longdan said, it would be more worrying if we
didn't care about these little virtual people.
Quote from: Gusington on November 30, 2012, 07:59:43 PM
Great post, Father. Are you really a priest?
Thank you and no. I'm actually a firm atheist. "Father Ted" is the eponymous character from a 1990s Irish sitcom (I'm not Irish either). When I first started online gaming it tickled me to think of a silly comedy priest running around the slightly po-faced world of Red Orchestra and Darkest Hour. A good side effect of choosing the nick is that quite a few people this side of the pond recognize the name, which leads to a bit of banter.
Quote from: Father Ted on December 01, 2012, 06:54:50 AM
"Father Ted" is the eponymous character from a 1990s Irish sitcom (I'm not Irish either).
It is one of the best TV shows I've ever seen. Incredibly funny.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on December 01, 2012, 06:59:58 AM
Quote from: Father Ted on December 01, 2012, 06:54:50 AM
"Father Ted" is the eponymous character from a 1990s Irish sitcom (I'm not Irish either).
It is one of the best TV shows I've ever seen. Incredibly funny.
For Gus (and the rest of you who have Netflix): http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Father_Ted/70217141?locale=en-US
Only Episode 7 is online right now ??? but it might be on the DVD roster (which I don't have on my streaming only account).
This thread, beyond the initial posts calling me a fairy, is becoming educational.
OK so: Father Ted is not a priest nor is his name Ted but his handle is based on an Irish sitcom. And he's not Irish.
SDR I never even heard of the game you describe above...curious sounding game.
Thanks for the above 'Wing and Huw.
^True. but you're still a fairy. ;)
My post of the violin photo still stands. I think its safe to say that we all take a step back when we play these games and think about the actual historical losses and lessons associated with them. That's the beauty of our hobby, which is clearly a mature one. However, I don't normally associate a game like "Toy Soldiers," with this level of emotion, and insight. Its valuable whenever it comes to us, but its also nice to have some games in the hobby that are a little more light-hearted. Toy Soldiers was supposed to be one of them. Thanks for ruining it for me with guilt. ;D
Just one of the many services I offer.
Beyond my emotional gushing, I, for the life of me cannot beat the f*cking Tzar tank.
Well, it is hard to see the monitor through all the tears....
Shut up, I'm the sensitive type. How many missions per campaign?
Gus,
To beat the Czar Tank you need to place fully upgraded arty in all of the big squares. Level 2 is fine if you haven't unlocked Level 3 yet arty yet. Don't forget that you can rotate your guns in order to get their firing arcs pointed at the tank as it moves about the battlefield.
Here is a youtube guide (from the XBOX version but same strategy applies for the PC).
http://youtu.be/lNXyduZPUv4
Thanks W8. Is the Tzar tank the final boss battle or does the campaign continue?
Quote from: Gusington on November 30, 2012, 08:40:49 AM
Thanks guys for the above couple of posts...ts been a while since I have felt like this, not sure why a light game llike Toy Soldiers has brought it out...must be the reading I am doing as posted above.
Pinko crybaby.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on December 03, 2012, 09:53:44 PM
Well, it is hard to see the monitor through all the tears....
snigger
full on lunch down nose moment
Quote from: Gusington on December 04, 2012, 08:08:40 AM
Thanks W8. Is the Tzar tank the final boss battle or does the campaign continue?
No I think the Tsar tank is the third mission. IIRC there are 10 missions then you play Campaign + as the Germans for 10 more missions.
i think after the tank you get to fly some bi planes around as part of your victory conditions
QuoteIs the Tzar tank the final boss battle or does the campaign continue?
No, the Tzar Tank is just a warm up...it gets much tougher 8)
Dayum. That tzar tank is frickin' tough even when set on easy.
Quote from: Gusington on December 04, 2012, 02:30:40 PM
Dayum. That tzar tank is frickin' tough even when set on easy.
Its all about the arty!