I've been looking into joining the National Guard. I've kicked myself for years because I let family talk me out of joining the Air Force back in my late teens and twenties. I think I'm at the poop or get off the pot stage... Any tips, suggestions, or cautions?
I would never discourage some one from the urge
to serve his country, but it is more "fun" when you
are young. I would imagine you are old enough to
be serious enough to value service for its own sake.
Are you married? Do you have kids?
You not that old. Go for it if it's something you really feel called to do. Although JH asks some good questions.
What state are you in?
Do you have your college degree?
What specialty are you considering?
and as JH asked - are wife & kids a concern?
oklahoma married with a 5 year old. I also have a bachelors degree. I'm pretty unfamiliar with the National Guard so I'm still in the "figure it out" stage.
I like the idea of service while maintaining my current career (I'm a teacher). I was an IT professional for 8 years before teaching.
Not that they would...but I don't want to be tricked by a less than savory recruiter.
shoot me a PM when you're ready to chat, or hit me up by email. I spent 10 years in the ARNG across 3 states (CA, SC, OH) and I know some folks in OK who were connected to the ARNG there, so I can at least get you some real, no-kidding, non-recruiter answers. I can also answer a lot of procedural questions for you that the recruiters may not be able to.
I just sent in my application for the New York Guard at 38. You're not old, republic.
You're just trying to make yourself feel better Gus.
Quote from: Gusington on January 03, 2013, 08:51:43 PM
I just sent in my application for the New York Guard at 38. You're not old, republic.
New York Guard is not the New York National Guard, tho, so let's be careful we don't confuse the issue. :)
Private Gusington?
Private Dancer to you. Not sure what my rank will be.
That's Private Dancer to you, sir.
Might as well start learning to do it the right way, Private.
@ Republic, my take is this: if you're going in at 31 with a degree and work experience, you should be going in as an officer, or expect at least to go in at a mid-grade enlisted rank. I don't know how the Guard works and if that can be negotiated.
What I wouldn't do, unless you have a serious burning passion in your belly that if you don't do this you're going to be suicidally regretful your whole life, is to enlist as an E-1 into the Guard, or any military organization. I have met sailors that enlisted I think up to about 30 was the oldest, and that guy was a great sailor, but he literally had to choose between the Navy and prison. He really worked hard, though, and brought needed maturity to the division. Still, it was tough for him sometimes to basically have 18 and 19 year-olds as his peers, grab assing and doing what teenagers do whereas he was a grown adult man.
The military is great, but it will be hard to be 31 swabbing decks and taking orders from some 22 year-old LT fresh out of OCS or however the commission guys in the Guard. Think on it.
I've never been in the Guard, so I'll defer to Brant and others with more experience. My short answer, again, would be NO unless you can go in at a rank appropriate to your age and experience.
This goes double for Gusington at 38 with a Master's Degree.
Quote from: Gusington on January 03, 2013, 08:51:43 PM
I just sent in my application for the New York Guard at 38. You're not old, republic.
quit kidding yourself. the NRO has specifically blanked out your pre-natural baldness from their scans.
Tina Turner had a song about private dancer. Anyway.
What Toonces said above. When you are young and the other
guys are young it can be "fun". When you are older and have
seen some of the real world you have to want to serve or it can
be onerous indeed. My hat is off to you for considering.
It can be hell on your family like any important service job.
Tina Turner made a song about Gus? WOW...claim to fame much! ;)
i was serving in our army as an artillery gunner private for some years (service time only a full year though).
we have annual or biennal repetition courses until i reached 34y's.
i can only second Toonces: my morale was going down fast with every year that i grew older. to take commands
from fresh 22y old officers was really hard but luckily seldom. it was a lot better to be commanded
by people around the same age or older. you're a family father and are easily fed up with some insecure 'tough' guy.
but if you can enlist at a higher rank or can bring in your civil expertise this sure will be a lot different.
but i cannot imagine to start at the bottom as an artillery recruit again.
Quote from: Toonces on January 03, 2013, 11:32:11 PM
That's Private Dancer to you, sir.
Might as well start learning to do it the right way, Private.
Gus has a college degree. He'll most likely be Specialist Gus.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on January 04, 2013, 02:07:58 AM
Tina Turner made a song about Gus? WOW...claim to fame much! ;)
The disturbing part is that he was about 8 years old when she wrote it. Or Gus is a whole lot older than he's been telling us.
Quote from: Toonces on January 03, 2013, 11:41:48 PM
@ Republic, my take is this: if you're going in at 31 with a degree and work experience, you should be going in as an officer, or expect at least to go in at a mid-grade enlisted rank. I don't know how the Guard works and if that can be negotiated.
Those aren't things that can be negotiated. The enlistment standards for the National Guard are the same as for the federal armed forces. There are OCS options that he can (and should) look into, but it's not a negotiation: you meet the standard or you don't.
The New York Guard is a volunteer organization, until activated and deployed by the governor, so my obligation is different than republic's will be. With my age and work experience I will be looking for something higher up the chain than Private Dancer, though.
And yes I was about 8 when the song was released. About the same time I started going bald.
^^ the hair just migrated to your palms, eh?
Quote from: Gusington on January 03, 2013, 08:51:43 PM
I just sent in my application for the New York Guard at 38. You're not old, republic.
Yeah, Gus is!! ;)
On a serious note, I'm proud of Gus for following through on his dream.
Republic, I want to tell you that attitude has a lot to do with it. I'll get to what I mean after I give you a little background on me. I joined the Canadian Forces Reserves, an infantry regiment- as a Private, when I was 16. Did 2 years, and then left. You can imagine what life was like as a teenager in an infantry regiment; full of grab-ass and bullshit along with the marching, saluting and blowing shit up.
I returned to the Canadian Forces Reserves (Air) at 34, as an Officer Cadet- this time in the Cadet Instructor Cadre (kind of like a pack of glorified Boy Scout leaders with Commissions). I went through the Basic Officer Course with a bunch of young adults whose average age was probably 19 years old. I wasn't the oldest guy on the course, but I was close; there were 2 guys (including me) and a gal in their 30s, and one guy in his early 40s- all of us (except the gal) had previous military experience. The course instructors were all in their early-mid 20s. I was taking orders from people who were, at least 10 years younger than me. But I didn't let it bother me, I knew that it was all part of the game. Fortunately there were not too many assholes calling me "pops" or "gramps" and other shit like that; probably because we were not training to join combat units- the Cadet Instructor Cadre is not "Primary" (combat-ready) Reserves.
I enjoyed the challenge because I was much more mentally prepared for it than I was at 16 (go figure). The physical issue was a different story, but I did it and even managed to graduate "Top Candidate", my attitude and maturity (such as it is) worked in my favour.
If you go in understanding that you'll face some chickenshit bullshit, but you have the right attitude, and you enjoy rising to the occasion of a challenge- you'll be fine. Take-up JH's & Brant's offer, talk to as many people as you can. Take your time to learn about the military jobs that would be available to you. Pick the one that best suits you. I hated the infantry and when you consider that my idea of 'roughing it' is a 2 star hotel, my dislike of life in the infantry will come as no surprise. On the other hand I LOVED my time in the Air Force. I was an Officer, so after Basic I got my own room (mostly, sometimes as a 2Lt & Lt I had to share a double, when on a course, but otherwise it was always a private room with 'maid' service), and there was a lot less bullshit to take... but the bullshit was still there & it got bizarrely more complicated and political as I rose in rank.
Life is short and funny. People can give all kinds of advice (warn you off), but the truth is that you'll never get it out of your system unless you do it.
Quote from: Bison on January 04, 2013, 06:43:14 AM
Quote from: Toonces on January 03, 2013, 11:32:11 PM
That's Private Dancer to you, sir.
Might as well start learning to do it the right way, Private.
Gus has a college degree. He'll most likely be Specialist Gus.
At best.
A buddy of mine is in the military and has been since college.
With my MBA and work experience he told me I'd probably be brought in as a corporal. I decided to pass :/
A Cpl with a MBA??!! Who needs a Cpl with a MBA?! You'd be crazy to try anything other than some version of a DEO (Direct Entry Officer) program.
See the thing with me is that I want get it out of my system...its always been a dream an dnow I finally get to do it. So rank won't be much of an issue and neither will taking orders from kids. I want to be there. And after all, I've been taking orders from LB for over 10 years and everything is hunky dory.
And thanks for the words of support 40 :)
Quote from: Gusington on January 04, 2013, 11:58:59 AM
See the thing with me is that I want get it out of my system...its always been a dream an dnow I finally get to do it. So rank won't be much of an issue and neither will taking orders from kids. I want to be there. And after all, I've been taking orders from LB for over 10 years and everything is hunky dory.
And thanks for the words of support 40 :)
With that attitude, you'll be fine. Wise superiors, if they can, will put you ahead of others in the promotion queue because of your maturity and attitude. I hope that you enjoy your time "in".
Quote from: Gusington on January 04, 2013, 11:58:59 AM
I've been taking orders from LB for over 10 years and everything is hunky dory.
I'm not sure any venture I am involved with remains "hunky dory" for long. But who am I to argue?
Since seeing Azz in full bloom, I get uncomfortable any time that any man uses the word "hunky".
why would you see that?
I didn't turn away/block-view in time.
you two lovebrids had a picture game going?
It was an icky, one-way street. It also turned out to be a cul-de-sac.
:o
cul de merde de la nutsack
Quote from: LongBlade on January 04, 2013, 11:33:41 AMWith my MBA and work experience he told me I'd probably be brought in as a corporal. I decided to pass :/
Enlisting with a college degree in the US Army gets your brought in at E4, but as a Specialist. You don't get to be a Corporal unless you're actually in charge of people (in an NCO position).
There are OCS options that can get you through basic and AIT and straight into OCS without stopping first at a troop unit, but those are hard to come by.
Quote from: Centurion40 on January 04, 2013, 11:56:45 AMA Cpl with a MBA??!! Who needs a Cpl with a MBA?!
But why would/should a post-grad college degree get you any higher when enlisting in the military? Especially when advancing in the military involves significant amounts of demonstrating technical competence in your military skills?
(not a knock on LB specifically, but on college-educated enlistees in general)
I still can't believe I'm CPT Jarhead. I fight the urge to look over my shoulder whenever someone salutes me on base..."crap, where's the occifer? Oh yeah, its me..."
Well if I can get my lazy self in shape...I'm gonna do it. :)
Good luck
republic! I really hope you get in and that it works out for you.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 04, 2013, 04:53:36 PM
I still can't believe I'm CPT Jarhead. I fight the urge to look over my shoulder whenever someone salutes me on base..."crap, where's the occifer? Oh yeah, its me..."
You mean you weren't an officer in the USMC??
[runs] ;D
He was not an officer he was Emperor. [also runs]
QuoteBut why would/should a post-grad college degree get you any higher when enlisting in the military?
Elitist tradition!!
Quote from: Longdan on January 05, 2013, 09:58:05 AM
He was not an officer he was Emperor. [also runs]
Nah, just a lowly Ultramarine.
You'd better run too.
;)
Way to go Republic...but be sure to consider all of the advice you have been given by those with military experience.
@Gus, congrats on your decision to join the NY Guard. Let us know how it turns out...sort of a real life AAR! :D
Will do. Right now I think it will be a hurry up and wait sorta thing...JH waited forever for them to sort out his paperwork.
Quote from: Gusington on January 06, 2013, 06:12:41 PM
Will do. Right now I think it will be a hurry up and wait sorta thing...JH waited forever for them to sort out his paperwork.
I think that is a given for any country's military if my experience from my time in 2RCA is any indication.
I commissioned straight out of college. A friend of mine from high school who was getting his master's at Harvard and ran out of money and enlisted last year and we ended up in the same battalion, him as a private and me as a company commander. I missed having him in my company by one slot. Might have been a little awkward.
I'd give you the same advice a gave him; the military is generally designed to deal with the lowest common denominator: a scared 18 year old private. Someone like you coming in can easily get very frustrated with being treated like an 18 year old, but you also have a great opportunity to be an asset and a positive influence on your 'peers.' I've only seen a couple people seize this opportunity without becoming frustrated and bitter (my high school friend falls into the frustrated bitter category).
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on January 07, 2013, 01:25:55 PM
I've only seen a couple people seize this opportunity without becoming frustrated and bitter (my high school friend falls into the frustrated bitter category).
Hey Airborne.
Lifelong civilian here. So at risk of being wholly ignorant of reality, allow me to make an observation/ask a question.
To my untutored eyes, it would appear as though a situation where a much more mature person meeting a less mature person happens all the time in the military in the form of NCOs dealing with junior officers. It's my understanding that most NCOs learn to work in this environment. Is there any way to help these more seasoned recruits deal with the situation in a similar fashion?
Don't get him started on Butterbars!
Longblade,
Let me give you my perspective on this.
In the Navy you commission as an Ensign. In my case I went to flight school for two years before I reported to an operational squadron and was actually "in charge" of enlisted people. However, I did get to work with a lot of Ensigns during my last tour on the boat, so I have an idea of how the relationship works when you're truly a brand new O-1. Basically, unless the Ensign is a complete tool, they understand that the Chief (E-7) that runs their division "runs" their division, and their job as an Ensign is to learn how the Navy works, learn some basic leadership skills, and get qualified in their warfare area. Part of the Chief's oath is that their mission is to train junior officers, and I believe most young officers "get it". Still, you can pin on Chief in about 10 years in the Navy. So if you're a 10-year Chief, you're probably 28 or 29 years old, compared to a 22-25 year-old junior officer. The age disparity isn't that huge.
Even as a Lieutenant I was still fairly intimidated by Chiefs, and especially Master Chiefs (E-9). By the time you've been in a few years and sort of seen how it all works, you understand that a Master Chief is by definition pretty salty and you're not his peer, even if technically you out rank him. In fact, I'd say that it's only in the last few years that I've started to feel comfortable directing a Master Chief.
Now, I'm going to contrast that with Gusington going into the Army as an E-1 Private. Like Rifles said, the military is going to gear things for the E-1 to the lowest common denominator, the scared 18 year-old. When I was 18 I was sweeping and swabbing floors at McDonald's, flipping burgers, and doing that sort of stuff. Well, it's the same in the military. I'm generalizing here, but it wouldn't surprise me if Gus shows up to his first drill and they do a "field day" and clean some area. If you're 18 and you're out picking up trash or swabbing out the head, hey that's how it goes. But I'm trying to imagine 38 year-old, college educated family man Gus showing up and Jarhead is telling Gus to round up those 4 other E-1s and head out to the PT field and pick up all the trash, and then grab some mobs and swab out the company heads. Gus is going to be like, "WTF? This is what I signed up for?" Yes, yes it is.
Which is a long way of explaining why, again, I think there is a shelf life to these kinds of dreams. It is very admirable for anyone to continue to pursue their dreams, but at the same time, I do think it's reasonable to do a reality check to see if, really, it's still feasible.
I hope that makes sense.
Thanks, Toonces. It makes perfect sense. Which is why my buddy waived me off at 9/11. I was in my early 30s and, naturally, interested in serving my country.
He made it pretty clear that despite my "transferable skills" I'd still not be given much of a bone. In retrospect he was right, though he never put it in as stark terms as you did.
Really, it's too bad. There are a lot of transferable skills that experienced civilians could bring to the military. <shrug> It's their party.
I'm pretty sure that if Gusington has Jarhead mentoring him, he's not going to do anything he shouldn't do.
Quote from: Toonces on January 07, 2013, 11:08:50 PM
I'm pretty sure that if Gusington has Jarhead mentoring him, he's not going to do anything he shouldn't do.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll definitely take Gus under my wing, but he is still going to have to clean the head at Camp Smith and Latham.
Quote from: Toonces on January 07, 2013, 10:48:39 PM
Even as a Lieutenant I was still fairly intimidated by Chiefs, and especially Master Chiefs (E-9). By the time you've been in a few years and sort of seen how it all works, you understand that a Master Chief is by definition pretty salty and you're not his peer, even if technically you out rank him. In fact, I'd say that it's only in the last few years that I've started to feel comfortable directing a Master Chief.
Shoot. My Brigade had an SRP this past weekend and I was still nervous talking to the CSM. I think it will always be like that, more or less. That being said, I like having senior enlisted around. They really keep me squared away and on my toes.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 08, 2013, 06:22:33 AMand I was still nervous talking to the CSM. I think it will always be like that, more or less.
I dunno - in part it depends on the CSM. Not long after I got off of active duty, and got to my first Guard unit, our CSM took the staff out for steaks and beer on the Sunday at the end of the drill weekend. Seeing the CSM rip-snockered drunk and wailing on bad karaoke did a lot to dispel the aura.
The CSM I had in my first active duty unit was not intimidating, he was just an asshole. He was
not one who believed in shared hardship with his troops and that really got my goat. Worse, it set the tone for his fellow senior enlisted who dodged a lot of shared hardships with their soldiers and led to a pretty bad climate among the enlisted guys for a while.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 08, 2013, 06:22:33 AMThat being said, I like having senior enlisted around. They really keep me squared away and on my toes.
Can't possibly agree more. Isn't that why we keep LTG Smuck around?
Quote from: bayonetbrant on January 08, 2013, 07:11:28 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 08, 2013, 06:22:33 AMThat being said, I like having senior enlisted around. They really keep me squared away and on my toes.
Can't possibly agree more. Isn't that why we keep LTG Smuck around?
Well, it sure as hell isn't for his good looks and charm.
JH has already been helpful in the application process, paperwork, writing a recommendation letter and warning about long wait times.
If at some future point I get called to serve during a Hurricane Sandy type situation, I will be glad to clean up the PT field first. I've already done similar work like this for my friends who lost everything. It will be an honor for me to do it in a more official capacity.
LB, I agree with everything Toonces said. Something that helps with officer/NCO relationship is how it is defined. Yes, the young 2LT is less mature and less experienced, but a good platoon sergeant or first sergeant understands that it's his role to develop his officer to the point where the officer can really be in charge. The officer is expected to lead eventually whereas the private is expected to do what he's told. Most officers understand the relationship going in as well and that even though they're 'in charge' it's in their best interests to heed the advice of their NCO.
There has been a lot of writing recently about how the military hemorages talent because it fails to leverage its individuals and instead treats everyone like the lowest common denominator, even among officers. There's a lot of truth to that. The problem in a bottom-heavy organization like the Army is that as a leader you can only devote so much time to developing your subordinates and you can only juggle so many balls to make sure they are in the job that makes them happy, particularly with our up or out system where advancements are on a pretty strict timeline (more for officers than enlisted). In the case of my friend, he enlisted as an infantryman and then got selected to act as his company's intelligence specialist (a job at which he's very good) because of his obvious intelligence and education. Unfortunaltely, that doesn't change the fact that he's still a private and the NCOs treat him like a private. It's kind of a feedback system; he get's treated like a private and eventually he develops a bad attitude, which he demonstrates and then gets treated worse for his bad attitude, thereby worsening his attitude. Sometimes a young NCO can feel intimidated by an older more mature soldier and ride him simply to assert his dominance.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on January 08, 2013, 12:33:12 PM
The problem in a bottom-heavy organization like the Army is that as a leader you can only devote so much time to developing your subordinates and you can only juggle so many balls to make sure they are in the job that makes them happy, particularly with our up or out system where advancements are on a pretty strict timeline (more for officers than enlisted).
I've heard this problem has eased somewhat since the repeal of DADT. The military is now able to juggle many more balls than it could before.
I have always thought there is something systemically wrong with "up or out".
I feel that in peacetime it encourages rabid careerism at the expense of the organisation.
How many Majors are obsessed with getting the right battalion command at the right
moment with the right superior when they move up? If the answer is "three" it is
too many. These guys supposedly have a job to do like everybody else not a personal
goal to meet every few years. Your Framers did not want a peacetime army for a number
of reasons. That is one. They did not want to create a military/civil servant elite class
who existed to climb the power structure not serve the nation. We have Wall Street for that.
Has Dan been tossing cases of tea into Vancouver harbor lately?
Too far away. No tea party for me. If those guys were caught and prosecuted
it would have been all okay and in accordance with the rule of law.
If they did it today there would be a gunfight and the survivors would
go to jail. Anyway my comments above were just based on some experience
I had. A peacetime army can get really dysfunctional fast because it does not
do what its is meant to do. Smart guys with nothing constructive to do will
work the system to make their personal situation better.
Quote from: Longdan on January 08, 2013, 06:47:03 PM
Anyway my comments above were just based on some experience
I had.
Which is what, exactly?
Mostly Canadian Armed Forces 1973-1975 as far as the above comment goes.
so your excuse is frostbite and ddt.
now you suddenly make sense.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on January 08, 2013, 04:25:14 PM
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on January 08, 2013, 12:33:12 PM
The problem in a bottom-heavy organization like the Army is that as a leader you can only devote so much time to developing your subordinates and you can only juggle so many balls to make sure they are in the job that makes them happy, particularly with our up or out system where advancements are on a pretty strict timeline (more for officers than enlisted).
I've heard this problem has eased somewhat since the repeal of DADT. The military is now able to juggle many more balls than it could before.
Not that there's anything wrong with that... ;D
They never, ever had a shortage of balls.
Quote from: Toonces on January 03, 2013, 11:32:11 PM
That's Private Dancer to you, sir.
Might as well start learning to do it the right way, Private.
The Hobbits bow to no one.
Quote from: Bison on January 04, 2013, 06:43:14 AM
Quote from: Toonces on January 03, 2013, 11:32:11 PM
That's Private Dancer to you, sir.
Might as well start learning to do it the right way, Private.
Gus has a college degree. He'll most likely be Specialist Gus.
Why not Lieutenant Gus?
Quote from: bayonetbrant on January 04, 2013, 04:06:43 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on January 04, 2013, 11:33:41 AMWith my MBA and work experience he told me I'd probably be brought in as a corporal. I decided to pass :/
Enlisting with a college degree in the US Army gets your brought in at E4, but as a Specialist. You don't get to be a Corporal unless you're actually in charge of people (in an NCO position).
There are OCS options that can get you through basic and AIT and straight into OCS without stopping first at a troop unit, but those are hard to come by.
Quote from: Centurion40 on January 04, 2013, 11:56:45 AMA Cpl with a MBA??!! Who needs a Cpl with a MBA?!
But why would/should a post-grad college degree get you any higher when enlisting in the military? Especially when advancing in the military involves significant amounts of demonstrating technical competence in your military skills?
(not a knock on LB specifically, but on college-educated enlistees in general)
It depends on what the degree is in. I would think an MBA would be fast tracked up the logistics arm. An archaeologist PhD would bring nothing to getting men and material to the fight. They would be a regular troop.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on January 07, 2013, 01:25:55 PM
I commissioned straight out of college. A friend of mine from high school who was getting his master's at Harvard and ran out of money and enlisted last year and we ended up in the same battalion, him as a private and me as a company commander. I missed having him in my company by one slot. Might have been a little awkward.
I'd give you the same advice a gave him; the military is generally designed to deal with the lowest common denominator: a scared 18 year old private. Someone like you coming in can easily get very frustrated with being treated like an 18 year old, but you also have a great opportunity to be an asset and a positive influence on your 'peers.' I've only seen a couple people seize this opportunity without becoming frustrated and bitter (my high school friend falls into the frustrated bitter category).
That seems like a waste of resources. "Frustrated bitter" for the guy is not surprising.
Quote from: Toonces on January 07, 2013, 10:48:39 PM
Longblade,
Let me give you my perspective on this.
In the Navy you commission as an Ensign. In my case I went to flight school for two years before I reported to an operational squadron and was actually "in charge" of enlisted people. However, I did get to work with a lot of Ensigns during my last tour on the boat, so I have an idea of how the relationship works when you're truly a brand new O-1. Basically, unless the Ensign is a complete tool, they understand that the Chief (E-7) that runs their division "runs" their division, and their job as an Ensign is to learn how the Navy works, learn some basic leadership skills, and get qualified in their warfare area. Part of the Chief's oath is that their mission is to train junior officers, and I believe most young officers "get it". Still, you can pin on Chief in about 10 years in the Navy. So if you're a 10-year Chief, you're probably 28 or 29 years old, compared to a 22-25 year-old junior officer. The age disparity isn't that huge.
Even as a Lieutenant I was still fairly intimidated by Chiefs, and especially Master Chiefs (E-9). By the time you've been in a few years and sort of seen how it all works, you understand that a Master Chief is by definition pretty salty and you're not his peer, even if technically you out rank him. In fact, I'd say that it's only in the last few years that I've started to feel comfortable directing a Master Chief.
Now, I'm going to contrast that with Gusington going into the Army as an E-1 Private. Like Rifles said, the military is going to gear things for the E-1 to the lowest common denominator, the scared 18 year-old. When I was 18 I was sweeping and swabbing floors at McDonald's, flipping burgers, and doing that sort of stuff. Well, it's the same in the military. I'm generalizing here, but it wouldn't surprise me if Gus shows up to his first drill and they do a "field day" and clean some area. If you're 18 and you're out picking up trash or swabbing out the head, hey that's how it goes. But I'm trying to imagine 38 year-old, college educated family man Gus showing up and Jarhead is telling Gus to round up those 4 other E-1s and head out to the PT field and pick up all the trash, and then grab some mobs and swab out the company heads. Gus is going to be like, "WTF? This is what I signed up for?" Yes, yes it is.
Which is a long way of explaining why, again, I think there is a shelf life to these kinds of dreams. It is very admirable for anyone to continue to pursue their dreams, but at the same time, I do think it's reasonable to do a reality check to see if, really, it's still feasible.
I hope that makes sense.
It does make a lot of sense. It sounds like reality.
Gus has significant military history skill. He should get away from being private to being something along war planning lines. Do they have war planners for platoons? How can he get to use his tactical sense?
Soldiers learn how to dig among other things. Archaeology guys dig.
Historians attempt to wring truth from propaganda. Soldiers are fed a diet of propaganda.
Gus could be a cook.
I am a cook roght now for the State of New York (Communications Dept.) with a MA in History. After basic trainng I was hoping to do similar work for the NY Guard, and maybe move into cybersecurity as I advance into that in my regular career. But I would be happy driving a truck or ambulance and rescuing flood victims too.
Only rescue cute girls or puppies who will attract cute girls. Do not rescue anybody else,
especially old people. They caused the federal debt. Get a cool hat.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on January 11, 2013, 03:02:30 PMI would think an MBA would be fast tracked up the logistics arm.
nope. for several reasons:
1. no idea how the day-to-day operations of the military work
2. no experience operating within the military's supply chain, especially with the accountability issues that are a part of it
3. no idea how tactical/operational logistics work on the battlefield
4. if you're looking at putting someone at the "big logistics" level of moving entire fleets of stuff around - they already have those guys, wearing uniforms having earned their way up in the ranks,
and they all have their MBAs that they earned while in the military
and most importantly...
5. A lot of the tactical/operational-level admin/log positions (especially at BN/BDE level) are staffed by line officers with the technical enlisted guys under them for the detail work. This provides more general military leadership to the section beyond an overly-myopic focus on the day-to-day A&L responsibilities of the section. It also provides the commander with a ready pool of line officers that can be pulled out of a staff role and put in charge of a force on the battlefield, should it be needed - leaders that are already known and trusted within the unit to take on those sorts of roles when called upon. The HHC XO is quite frequently tapped to play an ad hoc 'command' role on the battlefield with an amalgamation of scouts, mortars, engineers, and MPs under his control for a specific mission. Same with the S-1, S4, or BMO. Heck, some units have line officers as SIGOs and CHEMOs and use them the same ways, too.
Some civvie with an MBA on how to balance double-entry ledgers and leverage mind-share of brand marketing into customer conversion rates is not that useful in a logistics brigade that's worried about getting fuel trucks from point A to point B.
History is important and so are detective skills. I remember when the lives of an entire platoon
hung in the balance over the question of "what happened to Bixby's underwear."
If we had had a detective/historian in our midst we could have come to the conclusion that
a) he lost them or b) McIsaac stole them sooner than we did and then gotten back to whatever
TF we were sposed to be doing.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on January 11, 2013, 04:34:12 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on January 11, 2013, 03:02:30 PMI would think an MBA would be fast tracked up the logistics arm.
nope. for several reasons:
1. no idea how the day-to-day operations of the military work
2. no experience operating within the military's supply chain, especially with the accountability issues that are a part of it
3. no idea how tactical/operational logistics work on the battlefield
4. if you're looking at putting someone at the "big logistics" level of moving entire fleets of stuff around - they already have those guys, wearing uniforms having earned their way up in the ranks, and they all have their MBAs that they earned while in the military
and most importantly...
5. A lot of the tactical/operational-level admin/log positions (especially at BN/BDE level) are staffed by line officers with the technical enlisted guys under them for the detail work. This provides more general military leadership to the section beyond an overly-myopic focus on the day-to-day A&L responsibilities of the section. It also provides the commander with a ready pool of line officers that can be pulled out of a staff role and put in charge of a force on the battlefield, should it be needed - leaders that are already known and trusted within the unit to take on those sorts of roles when called upon. The HHC XO is quite frequently tapped to play an ad hoc 'command' role on the battlefield with an amalgamation of scouts, mortars, engineers, and MPs under his control for a specific mission. Same with the S-1, S4, or BMO. Heck, some units have line officers as SIGOs and CHEMOs and use them the same ways, too.
Some civvie with an MBA on how to balance double-entry ledgers and leverage mind-share of brand marketing into customer conversion rates is not that useful in a logistics brigade that's worried about getting fuel trucks from point A to point B.
I accept your knowledge of the situation. Interesting reading.
To clarify I did not say an MBA should be put in charge of anything on entering the military. I assume any green lieutenant has to learn the ropes.
I will try to get a cool hat. I mean why do it otherwise at my advanced age?
Hot Chix. Remember Hot chix.
Something like this could happen. (Courtesy of SDR. Without his permission.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMucmRlPZK0
I am hoping that is my first call up.
Quote from: Longdan on January 11, 2013, 06:13:22 PM
Hot Chix. Remember Hot chix.
I joined-up thinking that it would help me with the ladies. It didn't. I was still me.
Quote from: Centurion40 on January 14, 2013, 09:06:11 AM
Quote from: Longdan on January 11, 2013, 06:13:22 PM
Hot Chix. Remember Hot chix.
I joined-up thinking that it would help me with the ladies. It didn't. I was still me.
It's the uniform, man. You should've been wearing it more often!
They first started taking women in back in the day (1970's).
Some of us were secretly excited. The first wave of man crushing bullcows killed that.
Then the real girls came in and turned it into a ladies social club. Certainly improved the
overall tone but it was no longer a misogynist, studly, bulldozer and powertools type hangout.
Some guys had trouble with that.
That's why we have this place.