SEOUL, South Korea (AP) — North Korea on Thursday vowed to launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike against the United States, amplifying its threatening rhetoric hours ahead of a vote by U.N. diplomats on whether to level new sanctions against Pyongyang for its recent nuclear test. (http://mail.aol.com/37547-111/cs_com-6/en-us/Suite.aspx)
"If you don't stop trying to stop our completely peaceful nuclear tests by which we hope to feed our country, we will destroy your country with our nukes, US! Waaahh! PS, stop sending your fascist mutant grasshoppers to eat our grain, too."
I guess since they can't stop the sanctions from going through, or stop them after they've gone through, they might as well get a little use out of their ICBM pipe dreams.
(I gather they aren't really serious about using what little nuke capability they already have, or they'd be threatening to lob it into Seoul by artillery or rockets or maybe by suicide bomber.)
Heh. Nice Disney reference :)
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Kim Jong-un seems delusional to pick a fight with the US and particularly so since China is distancing itself from him. His rejection of the non-aggression pact with South Korea is alarming, but we have been here before. I suspect Brant's cartoon really says it all. Picking a fight and threatening a country like the US with nuclear weapons seems lunacy. Scarily, the North Koreans don't seem to think along the rational lines elsewhere in the world and who knows what will come of this. The only reservation I have is not to underestimate the enemy. If Al-Quada can do the Two Towers, then is it not possible that North Korea could get a nuclear bomb smuggled or covertly delivered into the US? Whilst the US would leave North Korea a glowing ruin in return, I'd be horrified if US citizens were killed by a covert nuclear blast.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9917155/North-Korea-says-prepare-for-war-following-fresh-UN-sanctions.html
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Reading further on the matter http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/08/world/asia/north-korea-sanctions/index.html I'm just wondering whether the new sanctions are likely to be so effective that North Korea will be forced to change their militaristic culture? If so, then this outburst is either going to be NK's last posturing hurrah, or they'll actually go ahead with some Pearl Harbor style surprise attack regardless of the obvious consequences? What do y'all think?
This is a manufactured crisis by China. Last few years they have been rattling the saber across the South China sea. Most recently with Vietnam, Philippines, and Japan.
Now with the Norks are acting wild, China has the opportunity to act as the regional peacemaker.
If the Chinese can defuse this crisis they gain prestige in Asia, and both the US and South Korea will "owe them one" for keeping North Korea in check.
Quote from: eyebiter on March 08, 2013, 06:24:40 PM
This is a manufactured crisis by China. Last few years they have been rattling the saber across the South China sea. Most recently with Vietnam, Philippines, and Japan.
Now with the Norks are acting wild, China has the opportunity to act as the regional peacemaker.
If the Chinese can defuse this crisis they gain prestige in Asia, and both the US and South Korea will "owe them one" for keeping North Korea in check.
A very good point. We are seeing China transition from a regional super power to one perhaps with more global ambition. Your view makes a lot of sense.
Personally, I have little faith in our port security apparatus to stop a nuke, if it is shipped in by container ship.
Only a fraction of the containers on each ship are carefully and thoroughly checked. With a little camouflage, you put a nuke in a large locker, and it gets into a US port.
Much cheaper than those silly old ICBMs.
Quote from: besilarius on March 08, 2013, 06:51:04 PM
Personally, I have little faith in our port security apparatus to stop a nuke, if it is shipped in by container ship.
Only a fraction of the containers on each ship are carefully and thoroughly checked. With a little camouflage, you put a nuke in a large locker, and it gets into a US port.
Much cheaper than those silly old ICBMs.
This would be my greatest concern. I begs the question as to whether the US should respond decisively and pre-emptively on the basis of a statement of intended attack, or weather the storm and call the bluff. A bit of a nuclear poker game - not a nice thought at all.
Quote from: besilarius on March 08, 2013, 06:51:04 PM
Personally, I have little faith in our port security apparatus to stop a nuke, if it is shipped in by container ship.
Only a fraction of the containers on each ship are carefully and thoroughly checked. With a little camouflage, you put a nuke in a large locker, and it gets into a US port.
Much cheaper than those silly old ICBMs.
There are more checks than you think.
It's not foolproof, but there's more going on than just playing catcher to all those incoming containers.
Here's an unsettling thought: how close does a nuke really have to get in a cargo ship to a harbor anyway?
Or ten nukes?
And while I'd certainly grieve over the loss of American (or some other country's) life attacked by the Norks, I'd grieve over the utter crushing of North Korea to follow, too. Yes, I know, it would have to be done, not disputing that. Still, people have souls wherever they are; and however careful we are people (and lots and lots of people in this case) would get in the way who shouldn't have to pay for the crimes of their leaders.
Depends.
Were I you I wouldn't go looking too closely for an answer on that ;)
Nope ya don't wanna look at that. Anyway the Norks are upwind of Japan and downwind of China.
That is something to bear in mind. I have said before we fought them before and it did not work
out very well... since they are still there. My Dad told me they are ridiculously hard to kill.
Quote from: Longdan on March 09, 2013, 11:58:30 AM
My Dad told me they are ridiculously hard to kill.
You make them sound like the Tehran rats in the Rats vs Snipers thread. Have they mutated into Super Norks? ;D
Quote from: Longdan on March 09, 2013, 11:58:30 AM
My Dad told me they are ridiculously hard to kill.
I'm sure if you ask Jarhead nicely, he can let you know just what you need to get rid of a hard to kill Nork infestation. ;) :o
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 08, 2013, 10:26:59 PM
Here's an unsettling thought: how close does a nuke really have to get in a cargo ship to a harbor anyway?
Or ten nukes?
And while I'd certainly grieve over the loss of American (or some other country's) life attacked by the Norks, I'd grieve over the utter crushing of North Korea to follow, too. Yes, I know, it would have to be done, not disputing that. Still, people have souls wherever they are; and however careful we are people (and lots and lots of people in this case) would get in the way who shouldn't have to pay for the crimes of their leaders.
Since you mention it, don't forget they have subs that snuck up on a SK patrol ship. Where can they put those subs with their device in it?
I get the feeling LiL Kim will not be around in 5 years.
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Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 11, 2013, 07:57:23 AM
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Perfect :)
WTF do they think they're doing, anyway?
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 08, 2013, 10:26:59 PM
Here's an unsettling thought: how close does a nuke really have to get in a cargo ship to a harbor anyway?
.
you can wargame it here ... (i don't know if it calculate an airblast of optimum height or ground level so)
http://www.nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
Nk's latest test bomb is about a
1 mile radius high causalities by different effects thing
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on March 09, 2013, 10:56:24 PM
Since you mention it, don't forget they have subs that snuck up on a SK patrol ship. Where can they put those subs with their device in it?
I get the feeling LiL Kim will not be around in 5 years.
they didnt sneak up on that SK patrol ship, they sunk it which led to a weekend arty duel. most people dont realize that theres just a cease fire in place and not a peace treaty.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 11, 2013, 07:57:23 AM
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Ha! Definitely saving that one. :)
I keep saying we tried it and it didn't work.
MacArthur wanted to start nuking but democracy reared it's ugly head.
Quote from: Longdan on March 11, 2013, 11:54:20 AM
I keep saying we tried it and it didn't work.
MacArthur wanted to start nuking but democracy reared it's ugly head.
The interdiction campaign in Korea was actually quite effective once we had sufficient air assets available in theater. It's safe to say that we would have even better results if it came to a second round.
As I recall, THE WHOLE WAR in Korea was effective until China stepped up.
Oh well. I wonder if Shrapnel's Raging Tiger game has picked up some sales recently...
An article on the most popular second Korean War games (board or computer) on the market?
Quote from: eyebiter on March 11, 2013, 03:47:16 PM
An article on the most popular second Korean War games (board or computer) on the market?
and we'll expect it from you.... when? ;)
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 11, 2013, 03:22:03 PM
As I recall, THE WHOLE WAR in Korea was effective until China stepped up.
We did almost get booted off the peninsula entirely in 1950. The early battles involving US troops didn't go too well.
http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-says-cancels-1953-armistice-172852036.html
well this is going to get interesting.
Yep, that's a first, isn't it?
I realize that politically the right thing to say is that they can't unilaterally dissolve an armistice, but that's only a way of saying they can take it back and no one will complain, giving them a way back in. Practically anyone on any side can dissolve an armistice.
They threatened before. I guess that chubby kid didn't learn to play well at that private school in Switzerland.
"Hey there Jong-Un! Whaddaya gonna do after ya finish school?"
"Oh I dunno. Maybe be a crazy dictator of a Hermit Rogue Nation or something.....or maybe a marine biologist"
Threatened, yes; did it, no.
I expect this is mainly an internal political ploy to demonstrate to the old regime that the new kid has the balls to play with the big dogs. If we can find him something to point at as a political accomplishment, he'll back down, maybe.
In other words (if this theory is true), it's a matter of life and death to him personally at the moment (from coup threats) if he can't prove he can hack it as Glorious Leader. If he gets a concession that allows him to save his life and then tries again, he'll have to be stomped by people outside the country.
Still, they've publicly admitted that the moment they get an ICBM they intend to hold the world (or our side of the world) hostage with it. Or even fire it off for perceived benefit. Or for the Lulz. Or for the crazyuls.
It might be better to say, fine, you want us to dissolve the armistice and actually fight you, done. From here on out we treat you like Cobra Commander. Expect us to remove you with the minimum loss of civilian life we feasibly can under the circumstances. Whoever gets chosen Glorious Leader next, gets the smart-bomb target and the special force ninjas, too. Whenever one of you decides to shut down the nuclear program, we'll go back to the armistice.
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 11, 2013, 06:39:15 PM
Threatened, yes; did it, no.
I expect this is mainly an internal political ploy to demonstrate to the old regime that the new kid has the balls to play with the big dogs. If we can find him something to point at as a political accomplishment, he'll back down, maybe.
In other words (if this theory is true), it's a matter of life and death to him personally at the moment (from coup threats) if he can't prove he can hack it as Glorious Leader. If he gets a concession that allows him to save his life and then tries again, he'll have to be stomped by people outside the country.
Still, they've publicly admitted that the moment they get an ICBM they intend to hold the world (or our side of the world) hostage with it. Or even fire it off for perceived benefit. Or for the Lulz. Or for the crazyuls.
It might be better to say, fine, you want us to dissolve the armistice and actually fight you, done. From here on out we treat you like Cobra Commander. Expect us to remove you with the minimum loss of civilian life we feasibly can under the circumstances. Whoever gets chosen Glorious Leader next, gets the smart-bomb target and the special force ninjas, too. Whenever one of you decides to shut down the nuclear program, we'll go back to the armistice.
I empathise with your concern about civilians whose only stake in the matter is survival. Problem is that Li'l Kim may have found himself in a corner with nowhere to go if the sanctions work as expected. Rather than have him go through with his suicidal threats, he really could do with a "golden bridge" to retreat over this time, and so save face - On the understanding that after that reprieve he has quite literally burnt his bridges. Perhaps I'm being hopeful, but it would save a lot of lives yet draw a line that he would know he couldn't cross without being hammered in future?
How much Chivas Regal or Hennessy did he bring back from Europe anyway?
Quote from: Longdan on March 11, 2013, 07:38:39 PM
How much Chivas Regal or Hennessy did he bring back from Europe anyway?
Enough that he didn't have much spending money left over for rice to feed his people.
Stratfor has published their thoughts and a possible alternative view of the Norks' strategy.
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/considering-departure-north-koreas-strategy
Fishing expedition. The guy that wrote it doesn't believe it. It is like the world is a cow with a ring through it's nose, being pulled around by the norks.
If a swarm of robot insects landed on most the nork artillery tubes, what size charge would be required to make the tubes inoperable? The artillery is their Queen piece. It needs to be taken off the board.
I have trouble believing that "don't worry we're actually weak!" is part of their global diplomatic strategy. It isn't like the Glorious Leader is the only symptom of egocentric craziness in their government (i.e. as though he's a political distraction put up by the real leadership).
To clarify: I could see the institutionalized neuroses of the Nork leadership leading to a persecution complex where they tried to leverage world opinion by complaining about how they're being bullied, even though that would run against their propaganda about being so supremely awesome.
What I can't see is the same people self-consciously setting up a situation where other people decide they really are weak, or ideally even weaker than they actually are, with the goal that those other people would therefore not bother to exploit such fragile weakness.
From the article: "Unless its neighbors bought into [the premise that North Korea is actually too weak to bother about], North Korea could be susceptible to covert or overt foreign involvement, which would put the regime on the defensive and reveal its weakness."
In other words, the assessment is that unless North Korea successfully reveals its weakness underlying its shows of ferocity and craziness, to convince its enemies it's really to weak too bother with covert or overt foreign involvement, North Korea could be susceptible to covert or overt foreign involvement which would reveal its weakness.
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Uh, yeah, or maybe they're just fiercely crazy and also happen to be weak but not by their own design, George. Although I'd admit that strategy would reek of craziness...
Having laughed at the overthinking there, I do sort of like the theory that Kim III thinks it's a good idea to push brinksmanship to a level of "holy bleep you guys let's pull back before SK is annihilated", even if that means sacrificing something he's willing to lose -- not because that's much of a rational plan in itself, but because to a crazy dictator who has to prove himself sufficiently unpredictable and fierce to his own people that could seem like a good plan.
Well that fambly seems to not trouble themselves too much about the welfare of their starving serfs.
I cannot help thinking of Team America everytime I picture the Norx.
"Wonwy... so woh-ohnwy."
Now check this one out! You poor, poor Americans!!! It looks like Winnipeg!
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/alleged-north-korean-propaganda-video-americans-live-today-215322616.html
I wondered why that North Korean camera crew was following me around.
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 12, 2013, 04:02:19 PM
Having laughed at the overthinking there, I do sort of like the theory that Kim III thinks it's a good idea to push brinksmanship to a level of "holy bleep you guys let's pull back before SK is annihilated", even if that means sacrificing something he's willing to lose -- not because that's much of a rational plan in itself, but because to a crazy dictator who has to prove himself sufficiently unpredictable and fierce to his own people that could seem like a good plan.
There is no reason to overthink this. The reality is the NK entity is weak, even with millions of goosestepping soldiers and few undeliverable nukes. There is no reason to engage with them at all. Their military has no fighting experience, and whatever it has is not very good. Their equipment is outdated and while they may be able to inflict some damage on Seoul for a little while (hours/a day), that would be all they could do. Of course this assumes that US/UN would go all out on their sorry asses in case of even one shot fired at Korea. China should be told to mind their own business and any incursion by them into Korea across Yalu river wound be view as an aggression on ROK, covered by a defensive pact between US and ROK.
I dunno. I have sometimes thought that China should clean up that mess.
The fact that there even is a North Korea was brought about by a military deadlock between
the US and PRC. We did not win that war because of Chinese intervention.
Quote from: Longdan on March 14, 2013, 10:24:54 AM
I dunno. I have sometimes thought that China should clean up that mess.
The fact that there even is a North Korea was brought about by a military deadlock between
the US and PRC. We did not win that war because of Chinese intervention.
Absolutely. It should be China's and Russia's responsibility to cleanup the mess. And it should be clearly conveyed through diplomatic channels that they would be advised to do it otherwised a US cleanup is something they will not like.
My impression on Korean War is that the US did not engage in it in the same way as in WW2, which was necessary when confronting Red China.
A successfull Korean War would have a positive domino effect on many subsequent foreign policy issues.
Quote from: pawelj on March 15, 2013, 09:01:11 AMA successfull Korean War would have a positive domino effect on many subsequent foreign policy issues.
Like when we overthrew Iraq!
;D
(Not saying there wouldn't be positive results from it, especially if China decided to ally with South Korea over NK human rights abuse; but I'm doubtful from experience the dominos are ever going to fall our way.)
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 15, 2013, 04:21:20 PM
Quote from: pawelj on March 15, 2013, 09:01:11 AMA successfull Korean War would have a positive domino effect on many subsequent foreign policy issues.
Like when we overthrew Iraq!
;D
(Not saying there wouldn't be positive results from it, especially if China decided to ally with South Korea over NK human rights abuse; but I'm doubtful from experience the dominos are ever going to fall our way.)
Just because that didn't work out doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried about 20 more times until somebody says "That didn't work out."
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 15, 2013, 04:21:20 PM
Quote from: pawelj on March 15, 2013, 09:01:11 AMA successfull Korean War would have a positive domino effect on many subsequent foreign policy issues.
Like when we overthrew Iraq!
;D
(Not saying there wouldn't be positive results from it, especially if China decided to ally with South Korea over NK human rights abuse; but I'm doubtful from experience the dominos are ever going to fall our way.)
The *last* think the South Koreans want to do is pay for a unification with the North. They figured that out when they saw what took place with Germany - and the Norks are about a thousand times worse off.
Pity the people there, because nobody wants to pay to clean up that mess...though by rights China owns it.
I think China keeps it because they have to have some bad place nearby to threaten to send people to.
"No more Tianamen Square BS or we send you to North Korea!!" That would slow 'em down.
^ Funny, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was some truth to that.
Quote from: JasonPratt on March 15, 2013, 04:21:20 PM
Quote from: pawelj on March 15, 2013, 09:01:11 AMA successfull Korean War would have a positive domino effect on many subsequent foreign policy issues.
Like when we overthrew Iraq!
;D
(Not saying there wouldn't be positive results from it, especially if China decided to ally with South Korea over NK human rights abuse; but I'm doubtful from experience the dominos are ever going to fall our way.)
Korea 1950 was not Iraq 2003. And one could argue the Iraq 2003 was negatively effected by all the chain of events from Korea via Vietnam. We can even go back to the botched post-WW2 political settlement where Stalin (one of the two main instigators of the war) was left in charge of Russia.
^^We had little choice in that one.
Quote from: Martok on March 17, 2013, 03:25:47 PM
^ Funny, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was some truth to that.
"The Chinese have a lot of hells." --
Big Trouble In Little ChinaMeanwhile, since no one took them seriously about turning Washington DC into a sea of fire, now they're threatening to do the same to Guam and other American territories.
Which they can actually do.Could they actually
want us to glass their country (albeit with conventional weaponry)?
And is it normal practice for us to tolerate threats from unstable regimes to literally nuke what amounts to
states of our country?! -- especially when they can actually do it?!
NK has traditionally used the following formula for diplomacy: military "strength" + crazy threats + demands = get demands.
Sometimes they put some bite behind their threats to get what they want. Like sinking a ship or shelling an island.
Lately it appears as though they're being ignored. So they're upping the ante a bit.
That isn't to say that they couldn't change their calculus (they might). And like a child craving negative attention, they might behave worse to get attention.
But I don't think they really believe they'll last long if they went down that road. Doesn't mean they might not try. But I'm thinking their formula of issuing crazy threats is still mostly bluff.
At least right now.
There's also China to consider.
If the Norks went too far and actually did somethng related to their threats, I'm thinking China would beat the US to the punch and be the first over the border with a big stick in hand....
Quote from: Barthheart on March 21, 2013, 01:46:20 PM
There's also China to consider.
If the Norks went too far and actually did somethng related to their threats, I'm thinking China would beat the US to the punch and be the first over the border with a big stick in hand....
We should be so lucky.
Someone needs to steal a nuke from the Norks and drop it off in Beijing
Imagine how China would react if the blast pattern / radioactivity analysis pointed back to the Norks.
Think they'd wait to hear any of Un's 'explanation' before steamrolling the country and turning it into a parking lot?
Quote from: Barthheart on March 21, 2013, 01:46:20 PM
There's also China to consider.
If the Norks went too far and actually did somethng related to their threats, I'm thinking China would beat the US to the punch and be the first over the border with a big stick in hand....
not before the norks did decades worth of damage to one of Chinas main trade competators.
guess what we parked nearby:
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WATERS TO THE WEST OF THE KOREAN PENINSULA (March 21, 2013) U.S. and Republic of Korea Navy ships sail in formation during exercise Foal Eagle 2013. Ships from Destroyer Squadron 15, forward deployed to Yokosuka, Japan, are underway to conduct exercise Foal Eagle 2013 with allied nation Republic of Korea in support of regional security and stability of the Indo-Asia-Pacific region. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Declan Barnes/Released)
I wonder how many ABMs are in those 2 Burkes VLS cells. ;D
Sweet. Thanks for the update, Star.
Two B-2s just did a training mission over South Korea and we very publicly announced it. This is in addition to B-52 flights earlier in the month.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/29/world/asia/us-begins-stealth-bombing-runs-over-south-korea.html?hp
I saw that. What a happy coincidence.
B52's are getting kinda old. Is Kate Peirson still hot or is she grandma'd out?
Quote from: mirth on March 28, 2013, 09:19:24 AM
Two B-2s just did a training mission over South Korea and we very publicly announced it. This is in addition to B-52 flights earlier in the month.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/29/world/asia/us-begins-stealth-bombing-runs-over-south-korea.html?hp
What fortuitous timing! ;)
Quote from: Longdan on March 28, 2013, 11:29:34 AM
B52's are getting kinda old. Is Kate Peirson still hot or is she grandma'd out?
Personally, I have to disallow her. Sorry, but she's my father's age; my mind refuses to go there.
That's the benefit of being my age the pool of eligible females is larger even if I mark my age as the top end.
Quote from: Martok on March 28, 2013, 01:49:30 PM
Quote from: Longdan on March 28, 2013, 11:29:34 AM
B52's are getting kinda old. Is Kate Peirson still hot or is she grandma'd out?
Personally, I have to disallow her. Sorry, but she's my father's age; my mind refuses to go there.
Apparently she also bats for the Home Team. FWIW.
I know there is a lot of artillery that the Norks have pointed at Souel. How fast could the ROK and US take out most of it out.
Probably not fast enough to keep Seoul from getting really messed up in the first hour or so.
Don't worry. I am sure they have a plan.
Guys we have this everytime then norks want something. They arent stupid, so nothings going to happen
They aren't stupid. They are in a place beyond stupid. That is why I worry.
If the US could deal with stupid the government would be under control instead of running
around loose with Mom's credit card.
Quote from: jejo68 on March 29, 2013, 06:54:44 PM
Guys we have this everytime then norks want something. They arent stupid, so nothings going to happen
Noooooo, I'm pretty sure the ability to throw nukes a few hundred miles (or any miles at all) is a new level of dakka for the Norks.
Small nukes are relatively defensive, too. All they have to do is build five or six, detonate one somewhere nearby they don't give a hoot about (like Guam), and then say, "Yo, we get what we want now or we'll start setting off the other nukes we've hidden away. The first plane or the first shell that crosses our border, boom, we detonate. We don't have to throw it with a missile, we smuggled it into place."
They don't even have to be telling the truth: they could have kept all the nukes at home to use against any invading tank corps or against a fleet on station. Send out one of their diesel subs, crump the hulls, just like with Shot Baker. Sure they'd be poisoning the land they want to claim for themselves, but to crazy minds self-defense is paramount.
yeah because if they blow up a nuke in guam they are going to live more then 15 min after. No they arent stupid and they dont have a death wish
all they need to do is drop a couple of thousand-pound weights on one end of Guam and wait for it to capsize ;D
I got the joke.
The problem is that the Norks are stupid enough to sink a South Korean warship and shell a South Korean island. So they may not be stupid enough to start lobbing nukes, but they are still pretty stupid.
Watched a documentary on North Korean refugees from about 10 years ago on Netflix...called Seoul Train. I couldn't help but pity the regular North Korean people. They're being held hostage.
Quote from: Gusington on March 31, 2013, 02:13:43 PM
Watched a documentary on North Korean refugees from about 10 years ago on Netflix...called Seoul Train. I couldn't help but pity the regular North Korean people. They're being held hostage.
About a year ago a book was released detailing the horrific conditions experienced by several refugees. I have chosen to not seek it it. I'm getting too old to dive that far into the depths of depravity.
There was a quote at beginning of the doc I watched that I've seen before, but with this movie it was particularly true: North Korea is the world's biggest prison. Somewhere someone must be benefitting from North's existence, besides the Kims.
I also remember seeing similar talk about the difficulties that would be faced by a whole Germany when the Berlin Wall came down. Granted 25 years later and Eastern Germany is still being given life by the West. I wonder how long it would take South Korea and the world to bring North Korea back into the fold.
The main difference here is that East Germany wasn't overtly, regularly threatening to destroy the West.
reunification would seriously destabilize the South Korean economy. an order of magnitude more if it happened as a result of war.
Quote from: Gusington on March 31, 2013, 08:01:32 PM
There was a quote at beginning of the doc I watched that I've seen before, but with this movie it was particularly true: North Korea is the world's biggest prison. Somewhere someone must be benefitting from North's existence, besides the Kims.
China.
yup
Even China is looking at North Korea lately and has been like 'dude wtf'...
The NORKs are saying they will funnel more resources into their nuke program making it more central to their military first society. This is a great example of what happens when you have a military economy. The people starve. At some point the military has to do something to justify it's existence. IE attempt to annex something, attack something, blow shit up, make belligerent statements. Maybe the generals are pushing Kim to get him killed?
I'm reminded of a game of Civ where the Amazons were highly aggressive. They kept putting everything into their military to attack. I kept advancing my tech using short stacks of phalanx on mountains to defend. I had a catapult in every stack to counter. Finally I got annoyed enough that i parked a battleship in their harbour. They would churn out men then throw them at the battleship. They pounded themselves back to city size 1. I Finished it for them.
Phone the pentagon. They need you.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on April 01, 2013, 06:42:27 PM
I'm reminded of a game of Civ where the Amazons were highly aggressive.
:D
Kimmy aggressive?
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg692.imageshack.us%2Fimg692%2F3519%2Fkimmyo.jpg&hash=c339ca1996bb31cfa85ca8dd9b547a3b129f73cf)
More to be afraid of: http://www.wnd.com/2013/04/beware-n-korean-dolphin-commandos/
Yes even Flipper's cousin. (Flipper wasn't really a dolphin. He was a surgically altered North Korean kid left over from a cold war experiment.)
we have frikin sharks.
with lazers.
Those cartoons aren't real.
what cartoon?
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-iKFvxv1l4bQ%2FT6eHVFKZE_I%2FAAAAAAAAEDM%2FiGsa19L1Chs%2Fs1600%2Flaser-shark-2.jpg&hash=fa2af33cef43d7da76af2d868b63c1cd5c79aad1)
Those aren't lasers.
http://www.silbermedia.com/remora/
put your glasses on Dan, its the mechanical object on top of the dorsal fin.
WE THEREBY DENY THE OCEANS TO AAALLLLLL!!!!
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on April 02, 2013, 06:54:24 PM
put your glasses on Dan, its the mechanical object on top of the dorsal fin.
That's just the device the North Korean remora is using to drive that shark.
Even the Palestinians concede the Israelis control sharks. This is "settled science."
Quote from: LongBlade on April 02, 2013, 09:09:15 PM
Even the Palestinians concede the Israelis control sharks. This is "settled science."
Wait till the UN forms a committee.
No, no, the Palestinians insist the Israelis are sharks.
With frickin laser beams on their heads.
I thought they were just ill-tempered sea bass
Quote from: bayonetbrant on April 03, 2013, 08:14:12 AM
I thought they were just ill-tempered sea bass lox
fixed
As they've been sort-of threatening, the Norks have now shut off access to that shared factory to the Sorks.
I guess this counts as "escalation" in a way?
Yeah, 'cause the Norkies didn't really need the millions per year that the factory deal brought into their zombie economy. I'm sure it was merely extra gravy on the tasty biscuit that is life in the PRK.
I give the shutout less than a week.
Crazy people with guns. Go figure.
The crazy people with light nuclear weapons just told the US that they've authorized their military to use nukes against the US.
http://mail.aol.com/37614-111/cs_com-6/en-us/Suite.aspx
"We formally inform the White House and Pentagon that the ever-escalating U.S. hostile policy toward the DPRK and its reckless nuclear threat will be smashed by the strong will of all the united service personnel and people and cutting-edge smaller, lighter and diversified nuclear strike means," an unnamed spokesman from the General Bureau of the Korean People's Army said in a statement carried by state media, referring to North Korea by its formal name, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. "The U.S. had better ponder over the prevailing grave situation."
I have to say this fits my estimation of how they'd actually use what nukes they had: go for low-tech demonstration terrorism, not high-tech delivery. Nuke somewhere they don't care about taking themselves eventually if the US doesn't capitulate, and then threaten to do the same thing again with other hidden nukes in place if the US tries to retaliate. If the US tests that warning, they detonate a second nuke, keeping x-number in reserve: try retaliating again, see what happens.
Alternately, it fits the idea of them using the nukes as low-tech defensive weapons against invasion: try coming in and we pop some nukes on your tanks. However, their rhetoric has been aggressively aimed far from the area they'd like to claim instead of poison.
Another alternate is that they're planning invasion south, so they pop a nuke on Guam or SF harbor or Pearl, and warn that any resistance by the US to their advance will be met with more detonations by hidden nukes: withdraw or more US civilian casualties. Then they bet they can win against SK without US support. (Probably still not but remember, crazy people.)
Quote from: JasonPratt on April 03, 2013, 08:52:06 PM
The crazy people with light nuclear weapons just told the US that they've authorized their military to use nukes against the US.
Saw that.
It remains to be seen whether this is a continuation of the crazy-like-a-fox game they've always played or if they're going off the deep end.
My guess is that 20-something wannabe dictator is doing everything he can to pretend he knows what he's doing.
Maybe somebody can dig up his D+D buddies from that expensive private school and find out his weaknesses.
Too bad he has only got millions of starving people. If he had oil a war against him would pay for itself.
(Except for the part where RoK gets collateralled into rubble. Lots of work for Haliburton there to be had. If only there was the right VP.)
well we now have 2 ABM destroyers in the area, a THAAD system on its way to Guam and an X-band radar platform enroute as well as a squadron of F-22's and a squadron of F-15's.
who wants to play?
It is more important if Japan, China and South Korea want to play and what they want to wager.
Quote from: Longdan on April 04, 2013, 11:12:48 AM
It is more important if Japan, China and South Korea want to play and what they want to wager.
Actually, more important is whether the Norks want to play and wager. If they bring their A game then the rest will get dragged along for the ride regardless.
i am sure China has enuf HUMINT in NK to know exactly what nuke-prototypes in which state of mounting are where ... They are already pissed that the USA got a fine excuse to bring the latest toys infront of their doorsteps and surely will keep them installed even when the NK-scenario has cooled down.
so China will either discipline little Kimi soon, or find a way to replace him with a better behaving marionette from NK, before even more damage is done to their regional strategic interests.
of course they can let Kim running wild a little more, ...a very heavy border incident, let SK and USA retaliate, with a decapitation strike against Kim and his 200 profiteers and throwing NK's C3I-structure in ruins, and then march into NK from the North 'to restore peace' themself (after the US aircampaign ) ...and later install their NK sockpuppet.
but the world economical fallout of only 1 days of the conflict going hot leading to turmoil at the world stock exchanges, raw-material markets, and curency-markets may be a price/risk to high for China to let it happen the hot way
The Chinese won't miss the opportunity to gather ELINT when we deploy our toys. That's the downside to being that close to the problem.
I agree with MikeGER, the Chinese don't want or need this burning bag of dog poo on their doorstep. They have a lot of other irons in the fire right now and Lil Kim is making it harder for the Chinese to get done what they want to.
I'd expect there's a lot of pressure coming from China to smarten up or get smacked pretty hard.
Quote from: Barthheart on April 04, 2013, 11:35:12 AM
I agree with MikeGER, the Chinese don't want or need this burning bag of dog poo on their doorstep. They have a lot of other irons in the fire right now and Lil Kim is making it harder for the Chinese to get done what they want to.
I'd expect there's a lot of pressure coming from China to smarten up or get smacked pretty hard.
If you're right I guess we're about to see how tight a leash China really has on things there. My guess is that while they have considerable influence, it isn't 100%.
I just can't see how they would not be appling a lot of pressure to smarten up the Norks. None of this helps China in anyway.... unless they are the ones who want to start the fight....
Hmmmm.... use proxy nation to start flinging nukes at US interests, US responds by bringing all their toys close to China, China nukes the lot and start world take over.... might make a good movie...
I still don't see it. China is doing to well at beating the West through economics (or at least it was) to bother with a shooting war.
If...
If...
If...
The US can't really afford another conflict right now.
If we assume that the Cloward-Piven model of economic collapse has merit, there could be a move on the part of the Chinese to stress our finances to the point where we simply cannot support ourselves.
A fight on the Korean peninsula has prevailing winds that ensure any fallout move away from China and toward its competitors.
I'm not saying China is ready to provoke an armed conflict between the US and the Norks - but there may be hard line elements within China who might advocate such a scenario.
The US still has financial room to move. A conflict that stressed us that much could actually provoke some real spending reform in our government as we are forced to get smart about how we spend money in the midst of real crisis.
I'm not saying it would be a good thing, but it might actually have some unintended consequences that the Chinese hard liners haven't factored into their thinking.
Agreed... lots of questions... and only a nut bar has the answers..... :P
"The current question was not whether, but when a war would break out on the peninsula," because of the "increasing threat from the United States", China's state news agency Xinhua quoted the North's Foreign Ministry as saying.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/05/us-korea-north-idUSBRE93408020130405 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/05/us-korea-north-idUSBRE93408020130405)
It sounds to me like China is the puppetmaster that does not like how good the SK competition is. The only ones that will benefit from damage to Seoul is Chinese companies.
Last thing China wants is war with the USA, we owe them too much money. After all if China were to intervene in a Second Korean War, we could claim afterward they owed us about 5 trillion in war reparations. Just enough to eliminate our entire foreign debt to them in one fell swoop.
If anything, I'd be interested to see what happens when the Chinese leadership finally lost patience with North Korea.
Notice the Chinese are starting to mobilize forces along their border with North Korea. Most likely an effort to stem the expected tide of refugees in case war breaks out with South Korea.
What if the Chinese moved in PLA troops to occupy North Korea? Something along the lines of the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan with the goal to stabilize the situation and maintain order. Kim might stay in power as a figurehead, but the Chinese would be running the show. How would the US and South Korea react to such an incursion, with condemnation or relief?
What is in our folk knowledge about a land war in Asia? How have past adventures in Asia turned out?
What could possibly go wrong this time? Thinking it is going to be different is thinking like a drunk.
Believe me. I am an expert on this. Being a drunk is one of the few talents I have mastered.
Quote from: eyebiter on April 05, 2013, 02:43:33 PM
...
What if the Chinese moved in PLA troops to occupy North Korea? Something along the lines of the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan with the goal to stabilize the situation and maintain order. Kim might stay in power as a figurehead, but the Chinese would be running the show. How would the US and South Korea react to such an incursion, with condemnation or relief?
This is what worries me about this whole North Korea situation. The question I'm struggling with is what does China gain by occupying and controlling North Korea?
That's part of the problem. If they wanted it they could have had it. Still can. Still don't.
Quote from: Longdan on April 05, 2013, 02:50:15 PM
Being a drunk is one of the few talents I have mastered.
Somedays I think it's a requirement to have a masters in drinking to hang around here.
Is North Korea resource rich? Not that China doesn't have that already, but another small resource rich province couldn't hurt. Sure, administration would be a nightmare for a while, but China has generally had thousands of years of practice in administration, and they administrate 1/6 to 1/3 of the world's population already.
Also they earn a ton of goodwill throughout the world if they do it right. God knows they have the manpower to do it and get it done. Sure it would be imperialism, but a lot of our problems in the past century up until now (including land wars in Asia) is that we aren't really imperialists and weren't seriously trying to be. Govern the damned land, take responsibility for its welfare and for the people, now and ongoing.
Granted due to the local sociopolitical situation there was no way we could do that in the Middle East. But the situation for China locally would be way different: next door, they can walk or rail troops in, a lot of similar cultural notions, they're technically fraternal communist buddies, China literally saved the North from being defeated the last time there was active fighting.
They had full occupation of that country and then promptly went home. Even the people who live there don't want to live there.
My Dad went there in 1950. He said it was very noisy and chaotic with lots of shooting and the whole place smelled like sh*t and all the wimmins had VD.
He did not like it there. Worse than Winnipeg.
Quote from: eyebiter on April 05, 2013, 02:43:33 PM
Last thing China wants is war with the USA, we owe them too much money. After all if China were to intervene in a Second Korean War, we could claim afterward they owed us about 5 trillion in war reparations. Just enough to eliminate our entire foreign debt to them in one fell swoop.
FWIW China holds about $1 trillion of our $16 trillion debt. http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2013/01/23/is-chinas-ownership-of-u-s-debt-a-national-security-threat/
Any way you slice it that is a lot of Simoleons.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/734567_170375659783904_56953123_n.jpg)
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on April 05, 2013, 09:15:45 PM
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/734567_170375659783904_56953123_n.jpg)
Yeah. They might be careful what they wish for.
Funny you should be talking about mass murder. Which is kinda what nukes do.
The goddamn Lion King has nukes? That's it! We need a pre-emptive airstrike against The Magic Kingdom!
Quote from: Longdan on April 05, 2013, 10:57:44 PM
Funny you should be talking about mass murder. Which is kinda what nukes do.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.deviantart.com%2Fdownload%2F144858069%2FFacepalm_by_iceman_3567.jpg&hash=607dec3cd491730f47d085b20f35f16664629470)
Quote from: Longdan on April 05, 2013, 10:57:44 PM
Funny you should be talking about mass murder. Which is kinda what nukes do.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi48.tinypic.com%2F2rgjs6a.jpg&hash=47a94117b4c8ba57293955b4c89b1b0eec5f2326)
...consider wellknown Grogheads (Hawaii) sit in the impact zone, if the SM-3' from the destroyers VLS has a seldom exceptional software glitch in its trajectory calc, while NK's crude missile hardware unbelievably don't fail this time.
and it doesn't has to be a nuke, an improvised dirty bomb NK warhead would be enuf.
Quote from: Longdan on April 05, 2013, 10:57:44 PMFunny you should be talking about mass murder. Which is kinda what nukes do.
so how would you characterize what the Nork regime has done to their citizens by taking all the food for the military and leaving the rest of the country to starve? What might cause the greater casualty count: one US nuke on Pyongyang, or 40 years of economic and agricultural mismanagement that's left millions to starve to death?
Wasn't that one of the ideas behind the development of the Neutron Bomb? You could take out a large aggregation of baddies while severely minimizing the fallout to surrounding areas due to the almost immediate dissipation of the actual destructive agent- the neutrons emitted. Also, outside of a localized central area most of the surrounding buildings and infrastructure would remain usable, after a certain amount of 'residual biological material' cleanup.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on April 06, 2013, 06:32:48 AM
so how would you characterize what the Nork regime has done to their citizens by taking all the food for the military and leaving the rest of the country to starve?
Alex, I'll take, "What is wealth redistribution?" for $100.
Would anyone even know the difference between North Korea before and after a nuclear attack? How much further into the stone age can they be blasted?
Well, deep cutting ploughs require metallurgy for the furrow cutting blade.
If their ploughs don't cut deep furrows, then you know we changed their economy/infrastructure/distribution net/etc.
This means their farming would be on about the level of medieval peasants around the Hundred Years War.
Quote from: Staggerwing on April 06, 2013, 07:07:45 AM
Wasn't that one of the ideas behind the development of the Neutron Bomb? You could take out a large aggregation of baddies while severely minimizing the fallout to surrounding areas due to the almost immediate dissipation of the actual destructive agent- the neutrons emitted. Also, outside of a localized central area most of the surrounding buildings and infrastructure would remain usable, after a certain amount of 'residual biological material' cleanup.
That was the perfect weapon idea. Frowned upon by some on moral grounds. I always wondered about that it just didn't make sense. Got no use for forners but we can use their stuff
after they are dead and cleaned up. Of course the Norks don't have anything anybody wants. Maybe they should fake an oil bonanza instead. I have seen what a real one has done
around here. It is not all good but it sure as hell is not all bad. Better than watching wheat and beef futures.
I am hardly interested in a debate about whether it is better to let Kim starve his people or the USA should just explode and irradiate and burn them.
They are the ultimate losers any way you cut it. They do not even get to pick who kills them. Too bad it might be made necessary. You should be safe at home.
And Star thanks for the Jon Stewart picture. It will always make me think of you even though I like Jon Stewart and think he is funny and perceptive.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/521718_10200417404930512_1708669275_n.jpg)
^Now that's funny.
Although someone mongled the line reading...
Misspelling "monger" or not, that was damn funny.
I do kinda like Kim's haircut.
It is an "Austrian Special" (popularised in the last half of the 30's and the first half of the 40's) isn't it?
I thinks it is sposed to come with a little square mustache. But mustaches do not work so good on Korean guys.
They could learn a lot from Italian women as far as that goes.
And Portuguese.
I only ever knew one Portuguese guy. His name was Steevo. I worked with him on the railroad. He drank a bottle of Mateus for breakfast daily.
He only knew one english word that I understood.
I'm talking about the women. I dated one right before I met The Wife. She had a hint of BO and more than a hint of a mustache. And all my friends and family hated her. She threw herself at me and I found her hard to resist anyway. Didn't last long though.
It is just like chimpanzees. A Portuguese girl is three times as strong as a normal man.
That is before arousal.
The manatees usually have a moustache. Whiskers if you prefer.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F77102_597847733561110_1617905893_n.jpg&hash=5d6b157f019115e60bc370f662b07e68e292cdc7)
When I was a little boy there was an old woman living next door that would give candy to all the neighborhood children. Someone told me that she was Portuguese. I had no idea what that meant so for several years I thought Portuguese people were all nice folks who give candy to children.
Quote from: Longdan on April 07, 2013, 11:53:00 AM
It is an "Austrian Special" (popularised in the last half of the 30's and the first half of the 40's) isn't it?
I thinks it is sposed to come with a little square mustache. But mustaches do not work so good on Korean guys.
They could learn a lot from Italian women as far as that goes.
It's the same haircut his grandfather had as a young puppet of the USSR. Look at pictures of Kim senior when he came to power. It's also worth noting that he subsequently invaded South Korea.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailynk.com%2Fefile%2F201004%2FDNKF00006243_2.jpg&hash=359655aaa67f649fcbff4a41dd883ee65322f0ce)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_IWHtKtOolP0%2FSeSipMJRdWI%2FAAAAAAAAAXs%2FoV13lNfWq88%2Fs400%2FKimilsung.jpg&hash=27b77cf59ae5c36ffd12f15cb9748da27944094d)
Not that I'm overly surprised (since they can't run the place themselves), but NK told its workers at the joint SK factory not to bother showing up today.
I guess the ominous thing about that is, it means they don't expect a relatively quick reinstatement of the SK managers.
"...the U.S. has been preparing for further provocations or action, "considering the risk that they may choose to do something" on one of two nationally important anniversaries — April 15, the birth of North Korean founder Kim Il Sung, and April 25, the creation of the North Korean army."
http://news.yahoo.com/skorea-nkorea-may-preparing-test-missile-095436309.html
Quote from: Ubercat on April 07, 2013, 09:14:18 PM
When I was a little boy there was an old woman living next door that would give candy to all the neighborhood children. Someone told me that she was Portuguese. I had no idea what that meant so for several years I thought Portuguese people were all nice folks who give candy to children.
That is sweet Cat. You never met Steevo. But think Nellie Furtado and feel better again.
Quote from: eyebiter on April 08, 2013, 09:57:31 AM
"...the U.S. has been preparing for further provocations or action, "considering the risk that they may choose to do something" on one of two nationally important anniversaries — April 15, the birth of North Korean founder Kim Il Sung, and April 25, the creation of the North Korean army."
http://news.yahoo.com/skorea-nkorea-may-preparing-test-missile-095436309.html (http://news.yahoo.com/skorea-nkorea-may-preparing-test-missile-095436309.html)
You read it on Grogheads first.
Retired General Wes Clark probably is more right than wrong.
He thinks there won't be a conflict, and here's what he outlines we should do.
QuoteFirst, ensure that the U.S. deterrent is capable and credible. This requires that we have the capability to both defend ourselves and strike back, and that we make it as clear as possible to the North Koreans our resolve to use these capabilities if challenged.
Second, assure our South Korean allies that we will stand with them, so they can afford politically to be restrained.
Third, strike a balance between demonstrating resolve in public and, simultaneously, working to reduce tensions. North Korea must always be given an "out" from the box of escalating threats it has constructed, but the out must not involve U.S.-South Korean concessions, apologies or any signs of hesitancy, weakness or lack of resolve. This requires artful balancing of military demonstrations, deployments, statements and behind-the-scenes dialogue with China and others in the region.
Opinion: Kim Jong Un is not crazy
The odds are that there will be no conflict. Good odds.
Full article: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/05/opinion/clark-north-korea/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
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FYI we canceled a long standing Minuteman III test launch this week because of this bs.
That's sad but if it helps that's what Minutemen are for. :-\
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash4%2F482733_610002585694409_897970881_n.jpg&hash=3beebdbebe141e572c8ee30abe681c684e2cdf80)
In today's breaking news, North Korea comes to their senses and joins the rest of the world in urging all foreigners to get the hell out of North Korea.
...wait, no, sorry. They're urging all foreigners to get the hell out of SOUTH Korea.
So, business as usual really.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F563708_10151550444433606_452707883_n.jpg&hash=1c3422e08a4c28d93062f5946c720a2448504d54)
Quote from: bayonetbrant on April 09, 2013, 08:04:19 AM
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Heh. No doubt.
Apparently Dick is concerned:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/11/opinion/navarrette-north-korea/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
Whatever comes next, I just love the photos accompanying the CNN story, linked above.
Photo #1: The Dear Leader, high as a kite on meth, thinks that he's Fat Bastard from the Austin Powers movies. "I want to eat yer baby!" "Nooo Dear Leader, please no eat my baby!"
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.cdn.turner.com%2Fcnn%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F130309110515-04-north-korea-0309-horizontal-gallery.jpg&hash=b80c242740d5c16be61bf20da69115c671c2fba0)
Photo #2: The Dear Leader, still deliriously high, is escorted away, while a General tries to shoo-away small children.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.cdn.turner.com%2Fcnn%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F130309110440-03-north-korea-0309-horizontal-gallery.jpg&hash=9bd04700f64b1e2bb50d56aa29ea9e231398b3b7)
Photo #3: The Dear Leader is whisked away from the children, coming down off the meth, he asks "Can we at least toss a net in and see if we can catch a sea baby?"
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.cdn.turner.com%2Fcnn%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F130309110037-01-north-korea-0309-horizontal-gallery.jpg&hash=6219f2d903882431e1424d667a9763050cdfd656)
bwahahahahaahah (http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/04/kim-jong-uns-wife-if-i-finally-give-you-head-will-you-stop-this/)
How can you take them seriously with those goofy "balloon" hats. I know these guys are short but what about codpieces?
Dangerous whackjobs with balloon hats OMG.
Costumes with glorious hats == World War Zero (Napoleonic War) + World War One (40 million casualties, worse than WW2).
Mock not the crazy costumes.
I understand but who wants to be killed by comic opera clowns? At least they should have fake noses and codpieces.
And drive around with 50 generals in a little tiny car. Now that would be cool.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F563081_467048983377338_1018061524_n.jpg&hash=63b276fa8196887d534c1d08bf6090464c0d405c)
A possible change in China? The US and China have jointly declared NK should be nuke-free.
This has some good analysis on the issue: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/13/kerry-to-press-china-on-north-korea-amid-missile-test-concerns/
Quote from: bayonetbrant on April 12, 2013, 09:09:11 AM
bwahahahahaahah (http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/04/kim-jong-uns-wife-if-i-finally-give-you-head-will-you-stop-this/)
I can't believe
this crowd had no comment on this article...
I snuck a peak at it while at work so I couldn't comment then.
I did wonder, however, if the Norks read the Duffle Blog and, if so, whether any of their analysts has the bad sense to show the story to Dear Fatso.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/13/us-korea-north-usa-idUSBRE93C01Z20130413 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/13/us-korea-north-usa-idUSBRE93C01Z20130413)
China finally steps up to the issue of NK.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on April 13, 2013, 10:10:15 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on April 12, 2013, 09:09:11 AM
bwahahahahaahah (http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/04/kim-jong-uns-wife-if-i-finally-give-you-head-will-you-stop-this/)
I can't believe this crowd had no comment on this article...
Half of the people think Duffel blog is real news and the other half smile and nod
Here's an interesting perspective, hit the Norks first.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp
Out of curiosity, is anyone playing Shrapnel's Raging Tiger game yet?
I figure their sales on that game always take a jump when the Norks get mouthy, and Lord knows Shrapnel needs the money now that Illwinter took their toys to someone else's house.
Quote from: mirth on April 13, 2013, 11:11:07 AM
Here's an interesting perspective, hit the Norks first.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp)
IMO the nork nuclear facility is also a legit target after they have said they will attack the US.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on April 13, 2013, 11:30:50 AM
Quote from: mirth on April 13, 2013, 11:11:07 AM
Here's an interesting perspective, hit the Norks first.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp)
IMO the nork nuclear facility is also a legit target after they have said they will attack the US.
The issue isn't really bombing the north. The problem is that Seoul will get pounded until we wipe out all their artillery. That could take time and cost a lot of civilian lives.
Also, *nobody* wants the NK regime to fall. No one. Well, maybe one guy in the Maldives but that's about it. So taking out their nuclear facility doesn't advance the interests of anyone.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F521583_585460884812468_1263296783_n.jpg&hash=742cb17d3f95d29ad3c9f73df89016a192797334)
Quote from: LongBlade on April 13, 2013, 07:21:09 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on April 13, 2013, 11:30:50 AM
Quote from: mirth on April 13, 2013, 11:11:07 AM
Here's an interesting perspective, hit the Norks first.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp)
IMO the nork nuclear facility is also a legit target after they have said they will attack the US.
The issue isn't really bombing the north. The problem is that Seoul will get pounded until we wipe out all their artillery. That could take time and cost a lot of civilian lives.
Also, *nobody* wants the NK regime to fall. No one. Well, maybe one guy in the Maldives but that's about it. So taking out their nuclear facility doesn't advance the interests of anyone.
Why do you think nobody want the NK regime changed? Nobody wants to own it or everybody likes how much of a political distraction he is?
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on April 14, 2013, 11:11:34 AM
Quote from: LongBlade on April 13, 2013, 07:21:09 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on April 13, 2013, 11:30:50 AM
Quote from: mirth on April 13, 2013, 11:11:07 AM
Here's an interesting perspective, hit the Norks first.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp)
IMO the nork nuclear facility is also a legit target after they have said they will attack the US.
The issue isn't really bombing the north. The problem is that Seoul will get pounded until we wipe out all their artillery. That could take time and cost a lot of civilian lives.
Also, *nobody* wants the NK regime to fall. No one. Well, maybe one guy in the Maldives but that's about it. So taking out their nuclear facility doesn't advance the interests of anyone.
Why do you think nobody want the NK regime changed? Nobody wants to own it or everybody likes how much of a political distraction he is?
As bad as that regime is, remove it and you're left with complete and total chaos.
It is not like they serve any purpose other than showing the Chinese that things could be worse.
I think it is the only reason it is there. They have literally nothing anybody else wants otherwise
somebody would have taken the place long ago. The Chinese owned it and just walked away.
Maybe India could use it. They seem to be able to make something out of nothing.
Too bad most of their girls look like they would be most comfortable pulling a plow.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on April 14, 2013, 05:46:35 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on April 14, 2013, 11:11:34 AM
Quote from: LongBlade on April 13, 2013, 07:21:09 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on April 13, 2013, 11:30:50 AM
Quote from: mirth on April 13, 2013, 11:11:07 AM
Here's an interesting perspective, hit the Norks first.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp)
IMO the nork nuclear facility is also a legit target after they have said they will attack the US.
The issue isn't really bombing the north. The problem is that Seoul will get pounded until we wipe out all their artillery. That could take time and cost a lot of civilian lives.
Also, *nobody* wants the NK regime to fall. No one. Well, maybe one guy in the Maldives but that's about it. So taking out their nuclear facility doesn't advance the interests of anyone.
Why do you think nobody want the NK regime changed? Nobody wants to own it or everybody likes how much of a political distraction he is?
As bad as that regime is, remove it and you're left with complete and total chaos.
I'm sure you are right. Does it always have to be? SK is a pretty competent country. Is it possible to just ship food in while slowly advancing the border north? The south consumes mile by mile as they can.
I like blue skying this stuff. Chile is an example of a country that made economic advancements fairly fast after the dictator was removed.
The toughest thing about NK would be the million + in the army. They could be real trouble. Hence borgify them mile by mile.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on April 14, 2013, 10:57:50 PM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on April 14, 2013, 05:46:35 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on April 14, 2013, 11:11:34 AM
Quote from: LongBlade on April 13, 2013, 07:21:09 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on April 13, 2013, 11:30:50 AM
Quote from: mirth on April 13, 2013, 11:11:07 AM
Here's an interesting perspective, hit the Norks first.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp)
IMO the nork nuclear facility is also a legit target after they have said they will attack the US.
The issue isn't really bombing the north. The problem is that Seoul will get pounded until we wipe out all their artillery. That could take time and cost a lot of civilian lives.
Also, *nobody* wants the NK regime to fall. No one. Well, maybe one guy in the Maldives but that's about it. So taking out their nuclear facility doesn't advance the interests of anyone.
Why do you think nobody want the NK regime changed? Nobody wants to own it or everybody likes how much of a political distraction he is?
As bad as that regime is, remove it and you're left with complete and total chaos.
I'm sure you are right. Does it always have to be? SK is a pretty competent country. Is it possible to just ship food in while slowly advancing the border north? The south consumes mile by mile as they can.
I like blue skying this stuff. Chile is an example of a country that made economic advancements fairly fast after the dictator was removed.
The toughest thing about NK would be the million + in the army. They could be real trouble. Hence borgify them mile by mile.
I really doubt it. North Korea essentially has no economy. They're incapable of caring for themselves. They not only have next to no trade or economic ties, but they lack anyone with any actual diplomatic experience. Moving the border North, even slowly, would place a massive burden on a South Korean economy that's only recently recovered from their late 90's crash. This is a nation that really does basically have nothing to build from.
Quote from: Longdan on April 14, 2013, 05:51:43 PM
It is not like they serve any purpose other than showing the Chinese that things could be worse.
I think it is the only reason it is there.
I'm not sure you're wrong...
Quote from: bayonetbrant on April 15, 2013, 05:44:29 AM
Quote from: Longdan on April 14, 2013, 05:51:43 PM
It is not like they serve any purpose other than showing the Chinese that things could be worse.
I think it is the only reason it is there.
I'm not sure you're wrong...
That is why you are different from everybody else.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on April 14, 2013, 11:10:52 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on April 14, 2013, 10:57:50 PM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on April 14, 2013, 05:46:35 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on April 14, 2013, 11:11:34 AM
Quote from: LongBlade on April 13, 2013, 07:21:09 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on April 13, 2013, 11:30:50 AM
Quote from: mirth on April 13, 2013, 11:11:07 AM
Here's an interesting perspective, hit the Norks first.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/opinion/bomb-north-korea-before-its-too-late.html?hp)
IMO the nork nuclear facility is also a legit target after they have said they will attack the US.
The issue isn't really bombing the north. The problem is that Seoul will get pounded until we wipe out all their artillery. That could take time and cost a lot of civilian lives.
Also, *nobody* wants the NK regime to fall. No one. Well, maybe one guy in the Maldives but that's about it. So taking out their nuclear facility doesn't advance the interests of anyone.
Why do you think nobody want the NK regime changed? Nobody wants to own it or everybody likes how much of a political distraction he is?
As bad as that regime is, remove it and you're left with complete and total chaos.
I'm sure you are right. Does it always have to be? SK is a pretty competent country. Is it possible to just ship food in while slowly advancing the border north? The south consumes mile by mile as they can.
I like blue skying this stuff. Chile is an example of a country that made economic advancements fairly fast after the dictator was removed.
The toughest thing about NK would be the million + in the army. They could be real trouble. Hence borgify them mile by mile.
I really doubt it. North Korea essentially has no economy. They're incapable of caring for themselves. They not only have next to no trade or economic ties, but they lack anyone with any actual diplomatic experience. Moving the border North, even slowly, would place a massive burden on a South Korean economy that's only recently recovered from their late 90's crash. This is a nation that really does basically have nothing to build from.
So what, plan to have permanent security costs? Has anyone calculated the Present Value of all costs associated with the regime? What about when their advancing missile program really is able to put a nuke on north america? Will they get hard currency for selling the tech to the mullas? Diplomacy at that point will be a bitch. Imagine his hissy fits we he really has weapons.
The primary long term cost is to SK which will have to divert more and more of their economy to their military as Kim's capability grows.
I admire O's restraint. He really has tried to make military intervention the last option. It gives him moral authority if he does have to do something later. Over the next 100yrs if things continue as is, something will have to be done. The longer th wait the larger the sunk cost.
Let's look at it from another angle: what's the most cost-effective way of helping the people? Heifer International on a national scale, with military security?
Quote from: JasonPratt on April 15, 2013, 03:45:25 PM
Let's look at it from another angle: what's the most cost-effective way of helping the people? Heifer International on a national scale, with military security?
You have no way in with that regime. Fat boy kim seems to want to turn the whole country into an armed camp.
^^ I know but the previous discussion has been "Let North Korea be his problem, don't remove him."
So supposing we run over him in North Korea Storm 2, or whatever, what's the most cost-effective way of helping the people? (Obviously step one of helping the people would be to get rid of the current regime.)
It's worth noting that the Norks didn't launch anything today.
Apparently the Chinese did think they went too far in their bombast and they do have some influence.
I heard on TV this morning that Un was openly being called "Fatty the Third" on Chinese websites. That means there is official displeasure with NK. Glad things have cooled down there.
Interesting.
QuoteWhen North Korean engineers launched a satellite into space on December 12, it seemed like business as usual, with the familiar cycle of condemnations from the west and statements of defiance from the Hermit Kingdom. But that launch also led many U.S. intelligence analysts to assess that Pyongyang possessed the ability to miniaturize the components necessary to yield a nuclear explosion for a crude warhead that would sit atop a ballistic missile.
After the North Korean launch, U.S. Navy ships managed to recover the front section of the rocket used in it, according to three U.S. officials who work closely on North Korean proliferation. That part of the rocket in turn provided useful clues about North Korean warhead design, should the next payload be a warhead rather than a satellite.
http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-tipped-hand-084500657--politics.html
Quote from: TheCommandTent on April 15, 2013, 08:24:07 PM
Interesting.
QuoteWhen North Korean engineers launched a satellite into space on December 12, it seemed like business as usual, with the familiar cycle of condemnations from the west and statements of defiance from the Hermit Kingdom. But that launch also led many U.S. intelligence analysts to assess that Pyongyang possessed the ability to miniaturize the components necessary to yield a nuclear explosion for a crude warhead that would sit atop a ballistic missile.
After the North Korean launch, U.S. Navy ships managed to recover the front section of the rocket used in it, according to three U.S. officials who work closely on North Korean proliferation. That part of the rocket in turn provided useful clues about North Korean warhead design, should the next payload be a warhead rather than a satellite.
http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-tipped-hand-084500657--politics.html
Excellent news!