You know - having just built my new PC it's become very apparent the minefield we have allowed ourselves to be drawn into regarding DRM.
My own experience has shown that because of the different types, things go wrong. And remember - I built a new PC - I haven't suffered a drive failure.
1. Limited activations - having to know what games have limited activations
2. Deactivation - trying to remember which games you have to de-activate
3. Limited downloads - did you really burn that exe to disk - and if so does the disk actually work
4. Different providers - where you got a game
5. Different details required - some need login details, some need credit card details, some need order numbers and some just need the game key
With rebuilding my machine, I've encountered the following issues
1. De-activated all my DCS stuff - BUT because I had Black Shark 1 it wasn't in my DCS World folder and therefore escaped my attention - lost a de-activation
2. Didn't de-activate my OOTP13 - forgot about it. Having only 2 activations, and now losing one, I had to de-activate the game on my laptop in order to activate it on my PC. Not knowing about the save game structure I couldn't get my league loaded - so I decided to use the opportunity to buy OOTP14
3. Combat Mission - by far my worst experience. You cannot de-activate their games. I hadn't bought CM:SF from Battlefront, I had bought it from Gamersgate. So I had to re-download it from Gamersgate. I installed it and activated it and it was fine. BUT - I had CM:Marines, CM:Nato and CM:British Forces - all of which would not activate. The download links had all been disabled (no longer available) but I did have the disks...but I still couldn't activate them...so I had to complete a support ticket at Battlefront...and now I wait.
However - on top of that, I'm not sure of the patching process....they say on the website you don't have to patch to 1.2 but then there's a patch to update the game to Battlefront (not Paradox/Gamersgate). Is there just one all encompassing patch? Do I have to install all patches? Nightmare.
There was of course Steam - which was by far the easiest. Install a game and you have the updated game on your disk. That's it. Of course there has been a mention of getting locked out and Steam's customer support being shit - but still - when it's working - how smooth and what a breath of fresh air.
Just wanted to air that - it's been/is a pain in the arse!
What an absolute nightmare. You have more patience than me JD - I would have lost my cool completely with all that.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on September 16, 2013, 04:19:34 PM
Just wanted to air that - it's been/is a pain in the arse!
I'm really dreading building a new one. Not because it'll take a little time and more than a little money. But because of all the m'fing DRM deactivations I'm gonna have to attempt finding and performing properly on the old machine. Fookeen nightmare!
I fully expect to have to deal with some customer service somewhere along the lines, to be able to get something to activate again. Most likely more than one. >:(
DCS = limited activations and supports deactivation - their activations are not too bad though because they "replenish" I believe
OOTP - 2 activations. Want more, ask.
Battlefront (CM) - limited activations - I thought they didn't support deactivation (sure I read it) and therefore I didn't deactivate them - but the support ticket has been returned informing me I am meant to deactivate (I'm POSITIVE I read you couldn't deactivate their games)...want more - ASK.
It's posts like yours that really make me realize that my decision to not have anything to do with steam or any form of DRM was a very wise move, there have been a few games that I would have liked but the cons far outweigh the pros, sadly while folks are still buying the software and putting up with all the hassle that goes with it it will never go away. Only got caught out once with Mass Effect, but got the money back as the DRM was not mentioned on the box, fortunately It never even made it as far as leaving the box as I looked online for a patch first and found the DRM words everywhere, I have a similar list for a rebuild situation that has all the utility software on 6 DVD's, I wrote a batch file to put everything back on once the OS is installed, all I have to do is swap disks every time the red alert from Star Trek goes off, shame that sort of thing can not be done to help folks like yourself with this DRM c**p.
Darkspire
Quote from: JudgeDredd on September 16, 2013, 04:39:00 PM
Battlefront (CM) - limited activations - I thought they didn't support deactivation (sure I read it) and therefore I didn't deactivate them - but the support ticket has been returned informing me I am meant to deactivate (I'm POSITIVE I read you couldn't deactivate their games)...want more - ASK.
The ability depends on the game. The new CMBN/CMFI cannot be deactivated. You get like 3/yr with 1/yr added on to your activations or some such nonsense. However an email to support will result with a quick reply and a activation reset, which has been my experience.]
The older games do allow for a deactivation.
With My CPU upgrade.. I will say.. at least Battlefront responded the next day and I opened the ticket on a Saturday...
DCS responded like a month later, when I went online on my own found what registry keys to delete and lost some activations...
Darkspire.. when building a New PC, Steam is awesome.. you just install everything.. right from Steam.. on as many PCs as you have in your house..
Quote from: Tuna on September 16, 2013, 05:20:11 PM
With My CPU upgrade.. I will say.. at least Battlefront responded the next day and I opened the ticket on a Saturday...
DCS responded like a month later, when I went online on my own found what registry keys to delete and lost some activations...
Darkspire.. when building a New PC, Steam is awesome.. you just install everything.. right from Steam.. on as many PCs as you have in your house..
+1
If I took anything from JDs post, and having done the same earlier this year, it was what a godsend steam was compared to the rest
But haters gotta hate and let the world know how evil steam is
It's stories like those in this thread that caused me to buy most of my games from GOG.com.
Makes me glad I have such a huge backlog of games that predate modern DRM.
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 16, 2013, 06:07:24 PM
But haters gotta hate and let the world know how evil steam is
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.fjcdn.com%2Fpictures%2FHaters%2BGonna%2BHate_0dd058_3113024.jpg&hash=7a5368ccadf318d1a6fe9d94592aefe705a14c76)
My feelings on this have evolved a lot over the last few years.
I think I just have tiers of games now.
First there are the non-DRM, GoG type games...I'm talking about those games with pretty much unlimited installs, maybe serial-number based.
Then there are my Steam games. Extremely easy to continue to install over and over, until Steam goes TU someday. But for now, extremely convenient and perhaps even my preferred means of purchasing games. Can't beat having everything in a library, patched, and ready to go at a moment's notice, workshop, and all that.
Finally, there are my headache-DRM games. These are games/add-ons I've bought, but I have no expectation of having them forever. In a sense, I consider them "throw-away" games. I'm talking things like Battlefront games (CM, etc.), add-on planes for FSX, DCS sort of...games that have install limits or weird activations...limited downloads, whatever. I pick and choose which of these games to buy, but I don't expect them to live forever. I enjoy them while I can, but someday I know they will die and I will be sad but I'll just move on.
I hate that it is like this, but it just is. I try to enjoy the games I have, and I have the core that I know will always be with me, but more often I have games that become hardware-limited before they become DRM-limited. So I've stopped being so worried about DRM as I might have used to be.
Steam was the shining light.
I know...I know...one day somehow that's going to bite my arse - but in this instance, Steam was the one which was FAR superior and VERY easy. No pissing around with different patches for different versions of different games....I selected a game in my library and it installed - with the correct and latest patches.
Battlefront, to be fair, responded last night soon after I emailed them - however, they did make it clear that I was meant to de-activate and that I won't be having many keys in the future if it happens again and that I would have to buy the games again. I do think that is totally wrong. They implemented a system that can cause you to lose keys - if I can give them my game key and order number WHF can they turn round and say "Sorry you have to buy the game again".
You could argue it was my fault this time - I could counter that by saying how the hell is anyone meant to remember (given the minefield of different DRM's) what games need de-activating AND the differing deactivation systems (just look at their own system - you apparently don't de-activate later ones but do earlier ones!!). Also - what about hardware failures?
Battlefront are way out of line imo saying you would have to buy the game again.
So now rather than enjoying their games you have to now go an document what games to de-activate and how to de-activate. Also, with their new system, You have to go to a website to get a new activation key...it's not just added to your account? Total bullshit.
I can guarantee one thing...the day I run out of keys and they say "Sorry you've got to buy the game again" is the day they can kiss my arse for the money.
I've still not had an email regarding the keys though...just the one last night explaining I was a bad boy.
For the record, this is the response...it even says in there some uninstallers will prompt and some won't. And as I've already pointed out - I'm sure their games didn't require deactivation...so I will now have to go and check each games documentation.
*********************
I have forwarded your request for a license key 'reset' for your CMSF license keys. Martin will email you once he has done this.
As a reminder about eLicense's functionality:
When you attempt to license the game and you get the 'error 11' that indicates that the license has been activated on two other computers/occasions and that there are no more activations left without UNLICENSING a previous installation/activation. To unlicense a game requires that it still be installed and that the computer have an internet connection (to communicate to the license servers). Admittedly it is not always possible to unlicense (hardware malfunctions, operating system problems/infections, etc.). What we can do is 'reset' the license key to allow for another activation. However we can only do this a few times before the license key becomes inactive and you would have to purchase the game again to get a usable license key. Because of this we try to reserve 'resets' to those occasions when a customer cannot unlicense previous installs (such as hard drive crashes, virus/trojan infections, OS reinstalls, etc.).
A license key can be licensed and unlicensed countless times, but only two installations can have the license key 'active' at the same time. Uninstalling a game DOES NOT UNLICENSE it. These are separate actions, though some of the uninstallers will prompt to unlicense the game, while many others will not. You need to UNLICENSE the game BEFORE performing any of the following:
1) Reformatting the hard drive ('clean' OS reinstalls, etc.).
2) Reinstalling or Upgrading the OS.
3) Any major hardware changes, primarily any of the following: a new motherboard, a new CPU, a new video card (new non-boot hard drives should not be an issue).
4) Disposing/selling the computer or boot hard drive.
5) Uninstalling the game permanently from a computer.
===
Check out our Knowledge Base at www.battlefront.com/helpdesk
Quote from: Bison on September 16, 2013, 05:10:34 PM
The ability depends on the game. The new CMBN/CMFI cannot be deactivated. You get like 3/yr with 1/yr added on to your activations or some such nonsense. However an email to support will result with a quick reply and a activation reset, which has been my experience.]
The older games do allow for a deactivation.
Maybe it's that documentation I read...so never bothered with any of them. What bullshit.
That's really a terrible story...
I try to avoid DRMs as much as possible and limit myself to only a few distribution sites, GOG being the best, followed by Matrix. Then it's impulse and gamersgate which are decent imho.
Quote from: Toonces on September 16, 2013, 11:59:38 PM
My feelings on this have evolved a lot over the last few years.
I think I just have tiers of games now.
First there are the non-DRM, GoG type games...I'm talking about those games with pretty much unlimited installs, maybe serial-number based.
Then there are my Steam games. Extremely easy to continue to install over and over, until Steam goes TU someday. But for now, extremely convenient and perhaps even my preferred means of purchasing games. Can't beat having everything in a library, patched, and ready to go at a moment's notice, workshop, and all that.
Finally, there are my headache-DRM games. These are games/add-ons I've bought, but I have no expectation of having them forever. In a sense, I consider them "throw-away" games. I'm talking things like Battlefront games (CM, etc.), add-on planes for FSX, DCS sort of...games that have install limits or weird activations...limited downloads, whatever. I pick and choose which of these games to buy, but I don't expect them to live forever. I enjoy them while I can, but someday I know they will die and I will be sad but I'll just move on.
I hate that it is like this, but it just is. I try to enjoy the games I have, and I have the core that I know will always be with me, but more often I have games that become hardware-limited before they become DRM-limited. So I've stopped being so worried about DRM as I might have used to be.
So on that note you must not care to much about money, I have been with computers since the late 70's and am a firm believer in having something I paid for, with the way you describe things you don't seem to mind paying for things and are even expecting for your paid for goods to become vapourware, that sort of attitude to this problem only reinforces the suits positions and bank balances, I am all for a digital download but it stops there, If I can not choose when and how often I want to install a piece of software then I would tend to feel that I have been robbed, all this paying for the license and not the software nonsense is a complete rip off, would you would be happy to buy a washing machine and know that you can only use it for 100 washes then you would need to buy another one?
Darkspire
DRM arguement alert!!!
your arguement falls down on the basic premise that you actually accidentally throw your washing machine away (hard drive crash, loss of data, new pc) and then ring up the manufacturer for a new one (re licence) for someone keen to look after their money you sure are shoddy with your washing machines
Quote from: JudgeDredd on September 17, 2013, 01:27:24 AM
Quote from: Bison on September 16, 2013, 05:10:34 PM
The ability depends on the game. The new CMBN/CMFI cannot be deactivated. You get like 3/yr with 1/yr added on to your activations or some such nonsense. However an email to support will result with a quick reply and a activation reset, which has been my experience.]
The older games do allow for a deactivation.
Maybe it's that documentation I read...so never bothered with any of them. What bullshit.
When I was trying to move install my CMSF that I bought on GG, I was in the same situation.. I searched far and wide.. there was no place that I could do an de-activation.. they 'said' there was one in the program group.. there was not.. I think BF was just upset to support their game sold on GG, which they felt was under priced...
Bottom line for me, was that GG rocked.. Customer Service responded right away and gave me a new key (3 more activations).. I don't know if they could still do that now, where their relationship has been severed for so long.. But at the time I really appreciated their stance on the situation.
You are right Judge.. You bought a game, legitimately.. you are not pirating software, they should NEVER say to, that you have to buy the game again. DRM is to prevent piracy.. It is not to make people by more copies of a game, that they already paid for... Or supposedly that is why we have all suffered through DRM with some companies.
Quote from: Darkspire on September 16, 2013, 04:41:29 PM
It's posts like yours that really make me realize that my decision to not have anything to do with steam or any form of DRM was a very wise move,.....
But the OP said that Steam worked fine. I got a new machine about six months ago and I did the Steam transfer with no problems and didn't bother with anything else.
I used to hate Steam (about 6-7 years ago), but these days it works much better than other DRM systems (in my experience).
Quote from: Darkspire on September 17, 2013, 02:23:16 AM
Quote from: Toonces on September 16, 2013, 11:59:38 PM
My feelings on this have evolved a lot over the last few years.
I think I just have tiers of games now.
First there are the non-DRM, GoG type games...I'm talking about those games with pretty much unlimited installs, maybe serial-number based.
Then there are my Steam games. Extremely easy to continue to install over and over, until Steam goes TU someday. But for now, extremely convenient and perhaps even my preferred means of purchasing games. Can't beat having everything in a library, patched, and ready to go at a moment's notice, workshop, and all that.
Finally, there are my headache-DRM games. These are games/add-ons I've bought, but I have no expectation of having them forever. In a sense, I consider them "throw-away" games. I'm talking things like Battlefront games (CM, etc.), add-on planes for FSX, DCS sort of...games that have install limits or weird activations...limited downloads, whatever. I pick and choose which of these games to buy, but I don't expect them to live forever. I enjoy them while I can, but someday I know they will die and I will be sad but I'll just move on.
I hate that it is like this, but it just is. I try to enjoy the games I have, and I have the core that I know will always be with me, but more often I have games that become hardware-limited before they become DRM-limited. So I've stopped being so worried about DRM as I might have used to be.
So on that note you must not care to much about money, I have been with computers since the late 70's and am a firm believer in having something I paid for, with the way you describe things you don't seem to mind paying for things and are even expecting for your paid for goods to become vapourware, that sort of attitude to this problem only reinforces the suits positions and bank balances, I am all for a digital download but it stops there, If I can not choose when and how often I want to install a piece of software then I would tend to feel that I have been robbed, all this paying for the license and not the software nonsense is a complete rip off, would you would be happy to buy a washing machine and know that you can only use it for 100 washes then you would need to buy another one?
Darkspire
Sure I care about money, but like I said my thoughts have evolved.
There are any number of things I have bought that don't last forever. I paid 18k for my car and I expect I'll have to replace it in about 2 more years...it's not going to last forever. Either are my video games.
I used to be a DRM-free guy, and in general I agree with that stance. However, over the years, and I've been gaming since they invented computer games, I realize that I have more games that simply don't work with modern hardware than I do games that have DRM that prevents me from playing them. This may not be the case in 10 years, but right now it is so.
Quote from: MengJiao on September 17, 2013, 12:28:42 PM
I used to hate Steam (about 6-7 years ago), but these days it works much better than other DRM systems (in my experience).
Steam and DRM go hand in hand, hence I wrote 'Steam and any other form of DRM' If Steam goes the way of the dinosaur you lose all your games, at least with a CD / DVD and no DRM or online activation I can install and not worry about that sort of thing, the throwaway culture of today is what feeds the monster and only makes matters worse. I rebuild / build a new PC sometimes 3 times in a year and although I only have a few games that have been on every machine I do not have to worry about all the juggling that folks have to do to get there games back. I really like the idea of Steam, having all your games in one place and being able to install without looking for patches etc but the thought if losing my collection and all the money invested if they go t**s up is a worrying thought not to mention all the background running code that goes on with the Steam DRM.
Darkspire
I think Steam is kind of too big to go belly up.. They're like the Amazon of PC gaming...
Quote from: Darkspire on September 17, 2013, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on September 17, 2013, 12:28:42 PM
I used to hate Steam (about 6-7 years ago), but these days it works much better than other DRM systems (in my experience).
Steam and DRM go hand in hand, hence I wrote 'Steam and any other form of DRM' If Steam goes the way of the dinosaur you lose all your games, at least with a CD / DVD and no DRM or online activation I can install and not worry about that sort of thing, the throwaway culture of today is what feeds the monster and only makes matters worse. I rebuild / build a new PC sometimes 3 times in a year and although I only have a few games that have been on every machine I do not have to worry about all the juggling that folks have to do to get there games back. I really like the idea of Steam, having all your games in one place and being able to install without looking for patches etc but the thought if losing my collection and all the money invested if they go t**s up is a worrying thought not to mention all the background running code that goes on with the Steam DRM.
Darkspire
While being wary of Steam going belly-up makes logical sense, in practice (as Toones pointed out), most games have a pretty short technical life-time and for me an even shorter period where I'm interested in playing them. For example, if Steam blew up right now, I'd only lose two games that I'm actively playing -- RomeII and ArmaIII. The other dozen or so are no longer of much interest.
Plus -- these days really good games are becoming more and more like subscriptions; you subscribe and get updates of one kind (patches) or another (DLC) or even another (stand-alone expansions). Steam works well with this subscription model.
Very good points but somewhere things changed, I suppose it must have been about ten years ago thinking about it. Companies used to release new content / large game altering patches for free, like Bioware did for Baldurs Gate and KOTOR for example, this worked as folks knew they were really getting there moneys worth and would stick with a company, now its all called DLC and you have to pay for it, I remember when I first noticed it with Morrowind Oblivion on the consoles and then it started creeping onto the PC like a cancer and has only got worse over the years.
Darkspire
Well after the initial fast response, I'm still waiting to be able to play my CMSF games :-(
Long Shot but try sending a mail to Gamers Gate.. might be too old and they no longer have access to keys.. but always worth a shot.. Gamers Gate has excellent Customer Service record!
Thanks but the ones I want replacement keys for I bought from Battlefront.
Combat Mission:Shock Force loads - GG is not the problem - Battlefront is the problem. I can't play any of the addons (marines, british forces, nato or Afghanistan)
I don't have problems paying for a DLC if it added new content and enhanced my game.
I think the people who make this new stuff should be compensated some how for their time and effort.
But I wouldn't pay for a patch that only fixes things that were broken,I expect those for free.
I shouldn't have to pay extra to fix a defective product.
I think calling patches upgrades and requiring the customer to pay to upgrade so that they can accept the companies new line of products is a dis-service to the customer and a poor marketing move.
I never liked paying for upgrades and I especially dislike products that require frequent upgrades to keep your product running properly.Too me it's nothing more than a price gouging practice.
So for me,new content I have no problem paying for.
Upgrades and patches,maybe if I think paying for it is actually worth it and not some new scheme to rip me off.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on September 17, 2013, 02:47:52 PM
Thanks but the ones I want replacement keys for I bought from Battlefront.
Combat Mission:Shock Force loads - GG is not the problem - Battlefront is the problem. I can't play any of the addons (marines, british forces, nato or Afghanistan)
Well then BF should take care of you!.. If not, tell them that you are a prominent figure in the wargaming community, and if they don't take care of you heads will roll!!
Kind of scares me cause I bought my CMSF from GG and the bundle from GG.. I only started it up right after I upgraded and it seemed to work.. but so did my CMBN, then a few days later.. Bamm CMBN stopped working, which they fixed quickly.. but maybe I should start CMSF again and make sure it's still working..
This is a solid, healthy debate.
I've used Steam for years. A decade ago it sometimes gave me problems, but over the last four or five years I've never had a problem. If it goes TU, as Toonces suggested, I guess I'll just deal. It's rare for me to return to a game I have ceased playing, but I take some comfort in knowing all those games are there if I'd like to play them.
I'm not entirely sure I agree with the dishwasher argument suggested by Undercovergeek. He makes a good point, but I'm not sure it's valid. Even if it is valid, there are products that receive lifetime warranties. 20-ish years ago my uncle returned a hammer to Sears that was broken. He'd purchased it probably 50 years prior. Lifetime warranty, it was replaced with a new one.
The main reason washing machines aren't given away for free is that there is a real cost in material. Software, once cut, and bought, can be replaced cost free. Yes, there is a small cost of the network/internet, but in today's world bandwidth as a cost is inconsequential.
That said, this is the free market. If XYZ company wants to force you buy their game three times to replace two HDD meltdowns that's their prerogative. It's also the consumer's prerogative to decline that offer. Or accept it as they wish.
Simple profit and loss will determine if that course is acceptable to both consumer and publisher. I wouldn't want it any other way.
Steam and valve have gone on record to say come the day of the great unplug if it all goes wrong they would unlicence the games and they would be unrestricted
^ Really? I wonder what the developers and publishers think of that?
This was from Page 9 of the Battle for Normandy manual
"there is no way to "unlicense" a previously activated copy on a computer. Which has the advantage that you can't ever forget to do so :^)"
OK - there's a difference - but are they genuinely asking people to remember what kind of system they have for each of their games? I have 4 full games (CM:SF, CM:FI, CM:Afghanistan and CM:BfN) and 5 DLC's (Marines, British Forces, NATO, Commonwealth Forces)!
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 17, 2013, 03:33:22 PM
Steam and valve have gone on record to say come the day of the great unplug if it all goes wrong they would unlicence the games and they would be unrestricted
What else did you expect them to say? If and when the day comes that Steam goes TU, the "No Guarantees" clauses in the Steam Subscriber Agreement (http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/) lead me to believe the exact opposite of what you say will be true.
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 17, 2013, 03:33:22 PM
Steam and valve have gone on record to say come the day of the great unplug if it all goes wrong they would unlicence the games and they would be unrestricted
For one thing, they're
not on record saying that. Supposedly Newell said it once but it can no longer be found anywhere. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Secondly...that's just an empty promise. They can't possibly have the necessary agreements in place with every single developer and publisher.
I am not a fan of DRM by any means, but at least with Steam I can play 95% of my Steam games offline.The other games are UBI etc. and need to connect online.
So for the 95%, I do not see what the problem would be if Steam did go belly up.
The one problem it might cause if you buy a new machine or a crash and you have to reinstall.
I am a little confused though about one thing. I thought that the EU had a lawsuit against a company for " not selling you a product, but selling you the chance to use it". I thought that they won the suit and there was going to be some backlash about it?
Oh and I may as well weigh in myself, here, since I do give a damn about DRM.
Publishers that use limited activations are fuckheads. When I buy something, I expect to be able to use it until it breaks - not possible with software - or until the heat death of the universe. Allowing deactivations (oh how generous!) is a panacea at best, and in practise is yet another way to make the paying customer's life hard, as JudgeDredd's misfortune has so aptly demonstrated.
You guys say Steam doesn't give you this trouble? You know what else doesn't? "Pirated" games. DRM like that being discussed in this thread actively makes life far harder for people who pay than people who don't pay. When is the world going to wake up and collectively scream that this is wrong?
As Toonces has alluded, what you're prepared to put up with has probably changed over the years. Almost every non-indie publisher now uses some form of DRM, and the less egregious implementations have largely been accepted by the gaming world, now. But the ones that bend you over and shaft you up the arse are still rightly decried by anyone who gives a damn about their rights.
Finally, we have so far been skirting around the very real issue that "piracy" is not the detrimental force it's claimed by some to be. From research showing that the closure of file-sharing services hurts box office revenues (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2176246) to revelations that Netflix actually uses torrent sites to pick content (http://torrentfreak.com/netflix-uses-pirate-sites-to-determine-what-shows-to-buy-130914/) through to the vehemently anti-DRM stance held by many developers (including CD Projekt who have sold millions of DRM-free copies of The Witcher 2), I just have to wonder why anyone bothers with DRM at all.
P.S. The beloved Steam doesn't even refer to what you "buy" as games. Have a look at your account history, and see which "licenses and subcriptions" you "own".
Quote from: Huw the Poo on September 17, 2013, 04:10:30 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 17, 2013, 03:33:22 PM
Steam and valve have gone on record to say come the day of the great unplug if it all goes wrong they would unlicence the games and they would be unrestricted
For one thing, they're not on record saying that. Supposedly Newell said it once but it can no longer be found anywhere. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Secondly...that's just an empty promise. They can't possibly have the necessary agreements in place with every single developer and publisher.
"If Steam were to go out of business, you would still hold a limited user license for all of the Steam products you have purchased. Steam has already arranged to deactivate online verification and have a third party host the software for download."
is what i read
Can you provide a link please mate?
"Unless there was some situation I don't understand, we would presumably disable authentication before any event that would preclude the authentication servers from being available.
We've tested disabling authentication and it works."
ive only got these from sources around the net, my original url is a dead link now
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 17, 2013, 05:31:12 PM
ive only got these from sources around the net, my original url is a dead link now
Yeah, and that's precisely what I said in an earlier post; they've reportedly said it in the past, but nobody can find it now. If they did say it, they've clearly retracted it, with obvious implications.
Also, this scenario depends on Valve having notice of a shutdown, and also giving enough of a damn to do something about it.
my steam library is worth probably 700-800 pounds in money spent
my steam library is worth exactly 70 pounds to me - 35 for Rome II, 30 for EU IV and 5 for HOI III, the rest, if i could i would give away or happily delete from my library
if the Steam Apocolypse comes tomorrow, let it come
Well fired up Shockforce and it still seems to work, so maybe I lucked out.. a CPU change isn't enough to set it's DRM off.. unlike CMBN which it did.
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 17, 2013, 06:10:14 PM
my steam library is worth probably 700-800 pounds in money spent
my steam library is worth exactly 70 pounds to me - 35 for Rome II, 30 for EU IV and 5 for HOI III, the rest, if i could i would give away or happily delete from my library
if the Steam Apocolypse comes tomorrow, let it come
You say that now, but when Steam's quality customer service fails to do anything and we can never download our games ever again, it may be a different tune.
I don't foresee that happening soon, but our Steam Libraries are continually growing. I have no doubts that if something drastic happened, and Steam shut down (sold out, increased account auto-bans, etc) that they wouldn't spend all the extra time fixing us up. Hell, it's like pulling teeth trying to get anything but an automated response back from their customer service. Sometimes I don't think they even have full-time CS. It's obvious that they don't give much of a shit.
Steam has advantages, but it also has disadvantages and certainly bugs. If at some point you can't log in, there will be no way to reinstall your Steam software since there is no client-free installers. Unless you, ironically, install a pirated version.
Acting like you don't care losing hundreds of pounds/dollars in software makes me ::)
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 17, 2013, 06:10:14 PM
my steam library is worth probably 700-800 pounds in money spent
my steam library is worth exactly 70 pounds to me - 35 for Rome II, 30 for EU IV and 5 for HOI III, the rest, if i could i would give away or happily delete from my library
if the Steam Apocolypse comes tomorrow, let it come
I pretty much agree with shrugging my shoulders at a lot of what I'd 'lose', simply because it isn't a loss. 99.9% of the games that I play through (or play for an extended period in the case of bigger strategy titles) I move on from and never return to. It doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy them, it just means that I either experienced what they had to offer or they were replaced by something else.
Quote from: Huw the PooWhen I buy something, I expect to be able to use it until it breaks - not possible with software - or until the heat death of the universe.
Very possible with software, actually. OS's change. System constructs change. Hell, how computers work changes. Eventually, software ceases to function in a modern computer environment.
Touching on a few other things that have been covered in here :
-Nothing wrong with DLC. Content that I get to make a personal purchase decision on? Cool. Every company does it differently, so this branding of 'all DLC is good/bad' that tends to be done is simplistic and silly. In a lot of cases, it really does look like old expansion packs. In many others, it's purely cosmetic stuff which doesn't affect game play whatsoever. In others, it's things like optional gun packs.
-There is no way that Valve could legally unlock every single game sold on Steam should they somehow end up going under tomorrow. They could definitely unlock the VALVE games, but that's it.
Quote from: undercovergeek on September 17, 2013, 06:10:14 PM
my steam library is worth probably 700-800 pounds in money spent
my steam library is worth exactly 70 pounds to me - 35 for Rome II, 30 for EU IV and 5 for HOI III, the rest, if i could i would give away or happily delete from my library
if the Steam Apocolypse comes tomorrow, let it come
Not to be flippant - but this is my view also. I have lots of games on Steam, and some of them, since my rebuild, have been reinstalled. Would I be pissed that I could not access my Steam account...absolutely. But I'd treat it the same as this Battlefront issue - that whilst it doesn't harm me, I'll continue to use - and when it does it can disappear. I won't use it again.
There are so many games in my Steam library that I simply do not care about.
As far as not caring about software I paid for - well, all those games I can't be arsed playing now - I can't do anything with...I can't pass on...so I really wouldn't be bothered about losing them. In fact if Steam gave me the option to remove games from my library completely and irrevocably, I reckon if I had 100 games in my library I would remove 90% of them...they sit there and just annoy me
If the Steam apocalypse came, I'd simply never use them again - and be about as pissed as I am at Battlefront - but it would be another DRM method I wouldn't revisit.
Still no sign of the codes. >:(
Quote from: LongBlade on September 17, 2013, 03:23:22 PM
That said, this is the free market. If XYZ company wants to force you buy their game three times to replace two HDD meltdowns that's their prerogative. It's also the consumer's prerogative to decline that offer. Or accept it as they wish.
Simple profit and loss will determine if that course is acceptable to both consumer and publisher. I wouldn't want it any other way.
I don't have a problem with steam per se and they seem to improve their system. It's like Impulse or else in my view. I do have a big problem in the the fact that they have more and more a distribution monopol linked with a drm. Matrix has a monopol on many games but if have the download or the box, i don't have a drm problem...this is not the case with steam. Many games published are availabe from different places but you still have to go through steam and this could become a problem in the future.
Update
My eLicences were reset (how many I don't know - but I have them now).
I complained saying that they were punishing paying consumers. I also told them I had bought every game and DLC from them since release and it choked me to hear that I may have to buy my games again if they cannot reset the licences again - to which they replied that they had never refused to reset eLicences and that it si only there if they can clearly see abuse of the system.
I replied I thought it was a bit odd to inform a paying customer of this given that I owned all their CM games and never requested a reset of licences.
To add to that, I discovered that I seemingly hadn't backed up my copy of British Forces. I contacted them and they had a link sent to me within 20 minutes.
So - yeah. They answered and I have my games. But I'm very wary of their system now. They used eLicensing for the early CM games (I don't know specifically which ones - I presume up to and including Afghanistan) and then they moved to activations.
I'm not entirely sure activations are any better...you only get two (and can "request" another every 365 days?) - and worse, you can't de-activate.
Anyway - I'm up and running...though it was a pain in the arse and something I do not think a customer should go through.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on September 18, 2013, 04:15:09 PM
Update
My eLicences were reset (how many I don't know - but I have them now).
I complained saying that they were punishing paying consumers. I also told them I had bought every game and DLC from them since release and it choked me to hear that I may have to buy my games again if they cannot reset the licences again - to which they replied that they had never refused to reset eLicences and that it si only there if they can clearly see abuse of the system.
I replied I thought it was a bit odd to inform a paying customer of this given that I owned all their CM games and never requested a reset of licences.
To add to that, I discovered that I seemingly hadn't backed up my copy of British Forces. I contacted them and they had a link sent to me within 20 minutes.
So - yeah. They answered and I have my games. But I'm very wary of their system now. They used eLicensing for the early CM games (I don't know specifically which ones - I presume up to and including Afghanistan) and then they moved to activations.
I'm not entirely sure activations are any better...you only get two (and can "request" another every 365 days?) - and worse, you can't de-activate.
Anyway - I'm up and running...though it was a pain in the arse and something I do not think a customer should go through.
Sounds like an extremely annoying ordeal, and one you shouldn't have had to go through. Just having been threatened with the possibility that you may have to re-purchase them should be enough to give pause about future purchases there. At least you weren't accused of being a pirate trying to pull a quick one on them. ::)
How long did it take before they sorted this out?
3 days I think.
Who was the idiot who came up with a DRM system based on a never changing PC configuration, that's just plain dumb?
Probably someone from Apple ::)
Quote from: SgtRock on September 19, 2013, 03:48:57 PM
Who was the idiot who came up with a DRM system based on a never changing PC configuration, that's just plain dumb?
WarCraft: Orcs & Humans (http://www.mobygames.com/game/pc98/warcraft-orcs-humans) implemented inputting a word from the game manual. After that, there was no need to input anything and the game ran without a disk in the drive. However, if the system configuration was changed, a key word from the manual had to be entered again. All in all, this was probably the least painful copy protection scheme I've encountered.
Maybe, now that the new iPhone 5s has biometrics, game publishers can just have you use an app to authenticate and reinstall.
Quote from: Greybriar on September 19, 2013, 04:46:24 PM
Quote from: SgtRock on September 19, 2013, 03:48:57 PM
Who was the idiot who came up with a DRM system based on a never changing PC configuration, that's just plain dumb?
WarCraft: Orcs & Humans (http://www.mobygames.com/game/pc98/warcraft-orcs-humans) implemented inputting a word from the game manual. After that, there was no need to input anything and the game ran without a disk in the drive. However, if the system configuration was changed, a key word from the manual had to be entered again. All in all, this was probably the least painful copy protection scheme I've encountered.
It was there before...Field of Glory had that system too...a good system imho.
Quote from: SgtRock on September 19, 2013, 03:48:57 PM
Who was the idiot who came up with a DRM system based on a never changing PC configuration, that's just plain dumb?
Not really if you think about it, if the game is an illegitimate copy then when it is first loaded then the PC configuration has changed and the protection kicks in, its like playing chess regarding cracking protection code ;)
Darkspire
Quote from: Tuna on September 19, 2013, 03:50:34 PM
Probably someone from Apple ::)
Definitely an Apple user, no doubt!
2 more I've come across which have proved a TOTAL pita!
Batman:Arkham City - using Games for Windows Live! I installed the game from STEAM and had to put the key in...fine...done. Steam provided one line for me to enter the key. When I get into the game - before I get to the menu, I get the Games for Windows Live! popup and have to sing in...then...as if that already was not a pita...I had to enter the key - AGAIN!. And not just have one box - but given 5 separate boxes to enter the code in.
Now Steam gives you the code and the option to Copy to Clipboard...and that's fine if the game gives you a box to paste into - but when it gives you 5 boxes for the different parts of the game code, copying to clipboard is useless. So here I was alt-tabbing from the game to steam to get the code - letter for letter!
That's 1.
2 is Max Payne 3 using Rockstars shite Social Club and this time, enforcing it! (I believe for GTA IV it was optional). So I type in my details and get nothing - no sign in, no error. So I request a password reset - and I get cannot connect to internet. So a quick squize on the interwebs reveals this...
Quote
Answer: We have received some reports about players seeing a "You are not connected to the Internet" message on the Social Club login screen and we are looking into this now. If you are experiencing this issue, please try the troubleshooting below and also log in to the Support Site and click Subscribe at the top of this page. You will receive an automatic email notification as soon as there is more information.
PC Ports: The ports to open are:
•Matchmaking: UDP port 27900
•NAT negotiation: UDP port 27901
•Activation: Port 443
For help with opening ports, please refer to: http://portforward.com/
Other ports to open if still having issues -- may not be needed:
•6667
•3783
•27900
•28900
•29900
•29901
•13139
•6515
•6500
Other potential conflicts to keep in mind:
•Windows Firewall
•Windows Defender
•Norton Internet Security
•Tiny Personal Firewall
•Zonealarm
•Sygate (proxy)
•Wingate (proxy)
•Internet Connection Sharing aka ICS - provided by Windows 98SE and higher (proxy)
•Linksys Routers (hardware firewall)
•D-Link Routers (hardware firewall)
•Cisco Routers (hardware firewall)
•Logitech Gaming Software (reports of Social Club saying you don't have Internet when devices such as wireless headsets and gamepads are connected with this software running)
Also try:
1. Make sure your router's firmware is upgraded the latest version (very important).
2. Unplug your router for 10 minutes and plug it back in. Some older routers degrade in performance over time until it is rebooted, similar to a PC.
3. Disable any firewall or other network filtering for the game.
4. Enable or disable uPnP (universal plug and play) on your router or the console settings..
5. If you don't care about security, enable DMZ (de-militarized zone) on your router for your PC's address. This turns off all of your router's firewall features for that specific PC.
6. Contact your ISP and ask them what your DNS settings should be.
7. If you have a combination modem/router unit or ADSL, try setting the unit to "Bridge Mode" to bypass the router part of the hardware. If this fixes the issue, then you may be able to connect a second router betwen the combination unit and the console to dial the PPPoE connection.
8. Max Payne 3 uses some Gamespy features. For further tips, please see: http://www.gamespyarcade.com/support/firewalls.shtml
9. If you require a proxy to connect to the net, please try the command line "-scdetectproxy" (http://support.rockstargames.com/entries/21498272-full-list-of-command-line-parameters-for-max-payne-3-on-pc)
10. Try flushing your DNS cache in case it has become corrupted.
•Click the Microsoft Start logo in the bottom left corner of the screen
•Click All Programs
•Click Accessories
•RIGHT-click on Command Prompt
•Select Run As Administrator
•In the command window type the following and then hit enter: ipconfig /flushdns
You will see the following confirmation:
Windows IP Configuration Successfully flushed the DNS Resolver Cache.
11. Make sure Windows root certificates are up to date. For some versions of Windows, such as XP, this may require downloads from support.microsoft.com. For others, it may be included in regular Windows updates, so we recommend downloading all available Windows updates.
WTF!? Seriously!
So it looks like they're off my hard drive and two more DRM methods to be avoided like the plague - Rockstar Social Club and Games for Windows Live
GFWL isn't fit for purpose by any stretch of the imagination. It's difficult enough just getting games running at all, let alone migrated from one configuration to another!
GFWL is the devil.
You have to figure the guys that program Windows are pretty smart, right? So how can GFWL be such a clusterf*ck?
I can only assume that they outsouced development of GFWL to the same people that create most DoD websites.
Yet another huge issue with it:
Buggy-ass DRM. A regular problem.
Quote from: Toonces on September 20, 2013, 01:07:33 PM
GFWL is the devil.
You have to figure the guys that program Windows are pretty smart, right? So how can GFWL be such a clusterf*ck?
I can only assume that they outsouced development of GFWL to the same people that create most DoD websites.
Luckily, it's also dead. Sometime next year, the plug gets pulled.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on September 20, 2013, 06:51:04 PM
Quote from: Toonces on September 20, 2013, 01:07:33 PM
GFWL is the devil.
You have to figure the guys that program Windows are pretty smart, right? So how can GFWL be such a clusterf*ck?
I can only assume that they outsouced development of GFWL to the same people that create most DoD websites.
Luckily, it's also dead. Sometime next year, the plug gets pulled.
Does that mean that nobody will be able to play their GFWL titles after that? ???
Quote from: Nefaro on September 21, 2013, 12:17:32 AM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on September 20, 2013, 06:51:04 PM
Quote from: Toonces on September 20, 2013, 01:07:33 PM
GFWL is the devil.
You have to figure the guys that program Windows are pretty smart, right? So how can GFWL be such a clusterf*ck?
I can only assume that they outsouced development of GFWL to the same people that create most DoD websites.
Luckily, it's also dead. Sometime next year, the plug gets pulled.
Does that mean that nobody will be able to play their GFWL titles after that? ???
I never had a problem playing SP games with an offline profile. MP will be dead. Updates/patching will also be dead. Basically, it's up to the devs who chose to use GFWL. Some have switched already (this is part of the reason Dawn of War 2 was swapped over to Steamworks).