Sad news out of Toulouse France, four dead, three of them children. Their religion seems the clearest motive. The shootings were done at a Jewish school.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/world/europe/france-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
QuoteToulouse, France (CNN) -- The suspect in a deadly shooting spree at a Jewish school in France knows he is being hunted and may carry out another attack, chief Paris prosecutor Francois Molins warned Tuesday.
He said the killer is "very determined" and has committed premeditated murders, targeting victims who had been selected according to their race or religion.
"The criminal is anti-Semitic or terrorist," Molins said. "One does not exclude the other."
The shooting on Monday was the third fatal attack on people from minority groups in southwest France in the space of eight days.
The region remains on scarlet alert, the highest possible level, after a teacher and three children -- two of them his own young sons -- were gunned down at the Ozar Hatorah school in Toulouse on Monday. The other victim, the daughter of the school's director, was killed in front of her father.
The other two incidents targeted soldiers of north African and Caribbean origin.
Molins said it was clear the same weapon had been used in all three attacks.
Exceptional measures have been put in place to find the suspect as soon as possible, Molins told reporters at a news conference in Paris. Investigators must verify witnesses' accounts and analyze some 7,800 hours of surveillance footage, he said.
Witness accounts indicate that the criminal is slim and around 1.75 meters tall (5 foot 9 inches), he said, although inquiries are still in progress.
All the victims were shot in the head at point blank range, he added.
Interior Minister Claude Gueant earlier said authorities are investigating the possibility that neo-Nazis were behind the attacks.
The gunman wore a camera on his chest during the attack, Gueant told Europe 1 in an interview Tuesday.
The minister said a witness had told authorities about the device, but Gueant did not know if the gunman had recorded the attack.
The 'nightmare' touched every parent
Toulouse put on high security alert
French people 'bewildered' after attacks
France observed a minute of silence in memory of the victims on Tuesday morning, with President Nicolas Sarkozy marking it at a school in Paris.
"This happened in Toulouse, in a religious school, to children from Jewish families, but it could have happened here. It could have been the same assassin. These children are exactly like you," he told the pupils.
Fear, confusion on streets of Toulouse
The bodies of the four victims have arrived at Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport, said an official with a group representing Jewish communities in France, the Consistory of Paris.
Sarkzoy and Joel Mergui, the president of the Consistory of Paris, were present to receive them.
The bodies will be flown to Israel by the El Al airline late Tuesday night, the Consistory said. Their burial is expected to take place Wednesday morning in Jerusalem.
Sarkozy wrote to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Monday to express his condolences for the loss of the victims, three of whom -- the teacher and his sons -- held dual Israeli-French citizenship.
The teacher was born and raised in Bordeaux, in southwestern France, but went to Israel to pursue his religious studies. He married and had a family before returning to teach at the Toulouse school, the Consistory said.
The decision to send the victims' bodies to Israel is because of their faith rather than their nationality, the Consistory said, since as practicing Jews, their burial in the birthplace of Judaism ensures that their remains will not be tampered with. Forty percent of French practicing Jews are buried in Israel, according to the Consistory.
Sarkozy, who is running for re-election, has suspended his campaign in light of the wave of violence against minorities.
One of the guns used Monday was also used in the killings of French soldiers of north African and Caribbean origin on March 11 and March 15, said Elisabeth Allannic, a spokeswoman for judicial authorities in Paris.
The first victim was a 39-year-old man, shot in Toulouse, while the other two were ages 24 and 26, according to French authorities.
A court in Paris has opened an investigation into all three killings, under anti-terrorism powers.
It is the first time a scarlet alert has been declared in France, French media reports say. The status means the state can implement sweeping security measures to guard against an imminent threat of major terror attacks.
Measures include increased security at schools, extra surveillance of Jewish and Muslim sites, restrictions on traffic and access to public buildings, additional police on duty and extra scrutiny of passengers and baggage on publis transport, the local Haute-Garonne authorities said in an online statement Monday.
France has a complex history with the far right.
Casualties in French school shooting
Sarkozy visits Toulouse shooting site
Shooting leaves Toulouse natives nervous
There has been steady if minority support for the National Front party founded by Jean-Marie Le Pen and now led by his daughter Marine. The senior Le Pen came in second in presidential elections in 2002, and his daughter is a candidate this year.
Sarkozy himself said in an interview earlier this month that France has too many immigrants.
"Our system of integration is working worse and worse, because we have too many foreigners on our territory and we can no longer manage to find them accommodation, a job, a school," he said in an interview on France 2 TV on March 6.
Historian and author Patrick Weil told CNN it is likely the public's shock over the attacks will lead to a calming down of campaign rhetoric directed at minorities.
The Israeli government earlier said the bodies of the four victims of the school shooting would be flown to Israel for burial.
"The government of Israel has decided to transfer the coffins to Israel as soon as possible, with the cooperation and assistance of Israel's representatives in France," the Israeli foreign ministry said in a statement.
The gunman pulled up in front of the Jewish school just before 8 a.m. on Monday and started shooting, authorities said. He got close enough to shoot his victims in the head, local journalist Gil Bousquet said.
The gunman wore a motorcycle helmet and fled on a motor scooter after the shootings, interior ministry spokesman Pierre-Henry Brandet said. The same method was used in the earlier soldiers' shootings.
France, which has one of the largest Jewish populations in Europe, had 389 reported acts of anti-Semitism in 2011, according to the Representative Council of Jewish Institutions in France, known by the French acronym CRIF.
The group later issued a statement saying that, while it is too early to determine definitively the motive for the "horrible" crime, it appears to be a case of anti-Semitism. It called for increased security at places of worship and study as the investigation continues.
Security heightened in U.S. synagogues
Police in New York, Washington and San Francisco all said they plan to increase patrols of synagogues and Jewish institutions, with New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly citing fears someone might stage a "copy-cat" attack. But he and the city's mayor stressed there is no "specific" intelligence indicating an active threat there.
"Just because there's something that happens there, doesn't mean there are more threats here. But we take everything very seriously," said Mayor Michael Bloomberg.
Read this earlier. Sounds like a Nazi serial killer, targeting both Muslims and jews.
Quote from: Gusington on March 20, 2012, 02:08:29 PM
Read this earlier. Sounds like a Nazi serial killer, targeting both Muslims and jews.
That would not be uncommon for that area. Southern France has a fairly substantial anti-immigrant, almost neo-Nazi movement. Remember the politician Le Pen? He was pseudo-Fascist and had support in the south.
For whatever reason, much of the globe seems to dislike Jews. That's part of the reason why every Jew, everywhere should be armed.
Nie Wieder! Translation: NEVER AGAIN!
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Completely OT, but I was under the impression that German Jews in the 20s were fairly well armed?
The problem with this attack is, regardless of France's policy of arming, they likely would have been unarmed at the school.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on March 20, 2012, 06:22:57 PM
Completely OT, but I was under the impression that German Jews in the 20s were fairly well armed?
The problem with this attack is, regardless of France's policy of arming, they likely would have been unarmed at the school.
IIRC, the Post-1918 German Gov't passed a law depriving all citizens of the right to bear firearms using the claim
that it was to comply with the Versailles Treaty imposed by the Victorious Allies. If the Gov't caught you with either
guns or ammo you went to prison.
Weimar Germany did pass strong gun registration and restriction laws in an effort to disarm both the Nazis and the Communists. However, the laws were sufficiently ambiguous enough for the Nazis to use the laws against their enemies once they took power, without adding too many new gun laws to the books. The German gun laws were modified in 1938 by the Nazis in one significant way...the amended law added specific gun restrictions against Jews, "non-citizens" and other enumerated non-desirables.
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Ah, so it was the other way. I was trying to remember if there were lots of guns or none.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on March 20, 2012, 07:57:19 PM
Ah, so it was the other way. I was trying to remember if there were lots of guns or none.
Nine out of ten dictators prefer an unarmed populace.
Quote from: LongBlade on March 20, 2012, 07:59:42 PM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on March 20, 2012, 07:57:19 PM
Ah, so it was the other way. I was trying to remember if there were lots of guns or none.
Nine out of ten dictators prefer an unarmed populace.
The tenth was unavailable to comment due to being holed up in one of his palaces while his newly armed peasants beat at the door. ;D
Quote from: TheCommandTent on March 20, 2012, 08:07:20 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on March 20, 2012, 07:59:42 PM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on March 20, 2012, 07:57:19 PM
Ah, so it was the other way. I was trying to remember if there were lots of guns or none.
Nine out of ten dictators prefer an unarmed populace.
The tenth was unavailable to comment due to being holed up in one of his palaces while his newly armed peasants beat at the door. ;D
Well played!
Quote from: LongBlade on March 20, 2012, 07:59:42 PM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on March 20, 2012, 07:57:19 PM
Ah, so it was the other way. I was trying to remember if there were lots of guns or none.
Nine out of ten dictators prefer an unarmed populace.
Errr.... well... that's not exactly true. They just prefer their people to be armed. JH, just discussed that.
But anyway, this is sort of poor taste, given that a Neo-Nazi is the probably suspect.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on March 20, 2012, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on March 20, 2012, 07:59:42 PM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on March 20, 2012, 07:57:19 PM
Ah, so it was the other way. I was trying to remember if there were lots of guns or none.
Nine out of ten dictators prefer an unarmed populace.
Errr.... well... that's not exactly true. They just prefer their people to be armed. JH, just discussed that.
But anyway, this is sort of poor taste, given that a Neo-Nazi is the probably suspect.
Apparently the shooter has killed several Paratroopers who were off duty as well.
Quote from: Staggerwing on March 20, 2012, 08:14:10 PM
Apparently the shooter has killed several Paratroopers who were off duty as well.
Yes, but they were all of North African decent. The shooter is definitely racially motivated.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 20, 2012, 08:47:07 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on March 20, 2012, 08:14:10 PM
Apparently the shooter has killed several Paratroopers who were off duty as well.
Yes, but they were all of North African decent. The shooter is definitely racially motivated.
I suspected that would be the case once I read more reports. Still, the Paras could have been
targeted because the shooter thought they were 'traitors to Islam' if he was a jihadist of some kind.
Quote from: Staggerwing on March 20, 2012, 08:57:09 PM
...the Paras could have been
targeted because the shooter thought they were 'traitors to Islam' if he was a jihadist of some kind.
Certainly a possibility. I wouldn't rule anything out yet.
They seem more convinced he was not a Jihadist, but a Neo-Nazi. Not sure why they think this, however.
Here's a shocker:
QuoteAbout 300 police officers surrounded an apartment in the south of France on Wednesday, trying to coax a man whom authorities called a self-styled al Qaeda jihadist to surrender after a series of shootings that left seven people dead.
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/21/world/europe/france-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17446999
the bbc the same
"The man, named as Mohammed Merah, 23, a Frenchman of Algerian origin, has said he belongs to al-Qaeda and acted to "avenge Palestinian children"."
Im sure mossad will want to ask him a question or 2.
Hmm... They must have been thrown off track by the other killings and the presence of radical parties in the south.
Note the words 'self styled' which to me mean that he really is not a member of anything. He sympathizes with Al Qaeda. This will really bolster the cause for immigrants in France that has been all the rage lately :/
I thought I heard on TV that he had escaped from prison in Afghanistan, but that could just be one of those jumbled facts that aren't true but somehow make it into the news when a story is still being sorted out.
Apparently the French police were involved in a shoot-out with the suspect. This news gets worse as time goes on.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on March 21, 2012, 11:47:26 AM
Apparently the French police were involved in a shoot-out with the suspect. This news gets worse as time goes on.
Which is crazy on the surface. They've got him surrounded. Time is on their side. All you've gotta do is wait him out - then you get him alive and can interrogate him to your heart's content.
Hey...how many French police officers does it take to apprehend one al Qaeda jihadist?
Apparently, all of them...and the issue is still in doubt.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 21, 2012, 03:10:52 PM
Hey...how many French police officers does it take to apprehend one al Qaeda jihadist?
Apparently, all of them...and the issue is still in doubt.
Let's just hope they don't surrender.
Quote from: LongBlade on March 21, 2012, 03:15:42 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 21, 2012, 03:10:52 PM
Hey...how many French police officers does it take to apprehend one al Qaeda jihadist?
Apparently, all of them...and the issue is still in doubt.
Let's just hope they don't surrender.
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Prepared to wait as he is going nowhere and is much more use to them alive. Let's see if this one is prepared to sacrifice himself for his religion when it would seem he can't take anyone else with him?
He's dead Jim.
Quote
French killings suspect dies shooting at police, authorities say
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/world/europe/france-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Quote
Toulouse, France (CNN) -- French police burst into the apartment of a suspected al Qaeda-trained militant accused of killing seven people, prompting a shootout that ended with Mohammed Merah, gun in hand, jumping out a window to his death, authorities said Thursday.
Dead, jumping from a window, wonder if he will be buired at sea ?.
Who cares? This wing nut has already recieved way more air time than he desreved. If the media would just ignore these nut bars they would get the recognition they are looking for.
He's just some wanns be nut with a gun and a grudge. Not part of some greater organization. But now that he's world wide news for course every terrorist group will use him as some kinda prop for their own ends.
Media just sucks these days....... >:(
Grumpy old crumudgeon rant over now...
Good point. He'll probably get far more attention than he deserved.
Good riddance...rot in Hell, baby killer.
what i don't get.... they want him alive, but failed >:(
in German news there were reports: jihadist was hiding in bathroom when the French (lame excuse for a?) SWAT-team entered his place after getting him tired pretty good . he opened up, fired 30 shoots of the 300 rounds! fired in this incident. the Jihaidst jumps out of bathroom window (while police sniper got him in that procedure)
SWAT member told the press later, "he never witness such a heavy aggressive shooting from a suspect"
(what were they expecting? and what were they doing while training the snatch-op in a makeshift mock up of that house? French had time enuf... hell, you just need some poles, lines and blankets and a shooting range ...and full dress rehearsal is SOP, isnt it)
I really don't get it ...you enter the place with a heavy ballistic shield (and maybe a small indoor-drone/robot upfront too), guy opens up ...launcher team outside send couple of 40mm flashbangs and a tear-gas through the bathroom window ... assault team rolls/toss couple of teargas and flashbangs too... and jumps upon him after the last bang... he obviously didn't had rigged the place or his body otherwise he had blown it up on first breach/uncovering of his place
i am disappointed
now he cant be questioned... shit!
Questioned for what? He was a wanna-be, wasn't he? What are they going to ask him?
Quote from: Gusington on March 22, 2012, 10:54:29 AM
Questioned for what? He was a wanna-be, wasn't he? What are they going to ask him?
...about his time in Stan and Pakistan ... his (non email, non phone) contacts in France and abroad, the weapons, how he became more and more involved in the Islamic scenes ... how he managed to get accepted (and survive traveling) in 'Indian country' overthere
more or less about every minute in his past 8-5 years
Is there confirmation he was actually in Afghanistan and Pakistan? It sounds like he was just a wanna-be.
Quote from: Gusington on March 22, 2012, 11:08:16 AM
Is there confirmation he was actually in Afghanistan and Pakistan? It sounds like he was just a wanna-be.
One of the reports said he'd been arrested by Afghani Police and deported back to France a while back.
Quote from: Gusington on March 22, 2012, 11:08:16 AM
Is there confirmation he was actually in Afghanistan and Pakistan? It sounds like he was just a wanna-be.
quote in German from:
http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Islamisten-bekennen-sich-zu-Attentat-article5825896.html
(its not a tabloid media... that would be Bild)
...about the shoot out:
Bei dem fünfminütigen Schusswechsel, bei dem 300 Patronen abgefeuert wurden, wurde auch ein Polizist verletzt. Zwei weitere erlitten einen Schock. Der Attentäter selbst schoss etwa 30 mal beim Sturm auf seine Wohnung. "Ein Mitglied des Einsatzkommandos sagte mir, dass er noch nie zuvor ein Feuer von einer derartigen Intensität erlebt hat", sagte der französische Innenminister Claude Guéant.
Wie Guéant weiter mitteilte, kam Merah aus dem Badezimmer, in dem er sich versteckt hielt, und schoss "mit äußerster Gewalttätigkeit" sofort auf die Einsatzkräfte. Nach einer mehrminütigen Schießerei sprang er dann aus dem Fenster, wobei er mit mit der Waffe in der Hand weiter feuerte. "Er wurde tot auf dem Boden gefunden", sagte Guéant.
Die Elitepolizisten waren kurz vor elf Uhr in die Wohnung von Merah eingedrungen und hatten sich dort langsam vorgetastet. Guéant hatte angeordnet, den 23-Jährigen möglichst lebend zu fassen, um ihn vor Gericht zu stellen....about his travels:
Staatsanwalt Molins bestätigte, dass Merah zweimal in Afghanistan und in Pakistan war, dass er aber "ein untypisches Profil salafistischer Selbstradikalisierung" aufweise. Er sei mit eigenen Mitteln und nicht über die bekannten Netzwerke nach Afghanistan gekommen. Der Mann habe auch behauptet, von Al-Kaida in Waziristan im afghanisch-pakistanischen Grenzgebiet ausgebildet worden zu sein.
Wegen seiner Reisen nach Afghanistan und Pakistan war Merah im November 2011 in Toulouse vom französischen Inlandsgeheimdienst befragt worden. Er sprach aber von einer touristischen Reise und untermauerte dies mit Fotos. Auch Merahs Mutter stand seit Längerem wegen ihrer Nähe zu radikalen Salafisten unter Beobachtung. Sie und die beiden Schwestern und Brüder Merahs wurden am Mittwoch festgenommen. Ein Bruder sympathisiert nach Angaben des französischen Innenministers ebenfalls mit den extremistischen Salafisten.(maybe toss it into google translater ... but will be availble @CNN , etc. soon anyway)
Mike's post after Babelfish:
Quotequote in German from:
http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Islamisten-bekennen-sich-zu-Attentat-article5825896.html
(Its not a tabloid media ... that would be image)
about the shoot out
In the five-minute gun battle, in which 300 rounds were fired, a policeman was injured. Two other in shock. The assailant shot himself about 30 times during the attack on his home. "A member of the task force said to me that he has never experienced a fire of such intensity," said French Interior Minister Claude Guéant.
How Guéant further informed, Merah came out of the bathroom, where he was hiding, and shot "with extreme violence" immediately to the emergency services. After several minutes of gunfire, he jumped out the window, where he fired the gun in his hand further. "He was found dead on the floor," said Guéant.
The elite police officers had entered just before eleven clock in the apartment of Merah and there were pre-scanned slowly. Guéant had arranged to take the 23-year-olds living possible in order to put him on trial.
about his travels
Molins prosecutor confirmed that Merah was twice in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but that he "an atypical profile Salafist self-radicalization" comprising. He had come with their own resources and not about the known networks in Afghanistan. The man had also claimed to have been trained by Al Qaeda in Waziristan on the Afghan-Pakistani border region.
Because of his trips to Afghanistan and Pakistan Merah was interviewed in November 2011 in Toulouse by the French domestic intelligence agency. He said, from a tourist trip and we have demonstrated this with photos. Also Merahs mother stood for some time because of their proximity to radical Salafists under observation. She and the two sisters and brothers Merahs were arrested on Wednesday. A brother, according to the French Interior Minister sympathizes also with the extremist Salafis.
I'm assuming the statement about the terrorist shooting himself 30 times was supposed to read more
like "The assailant
himself shot (back) about 30 times during the attack on his home." ???
The French should deport the dude's family, lock-stock-n-barrel.
OK I read up on him...he was confirmed to have visited Afghanistan and Pakistan. And he was arrested by French police more than 15 times. Why wasn't he in jail already? The best news I have seen from all of these events is this quote:
Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad strongly rejected using his people as a justification for the French killings, calling the string of shootings a "cowardly terrorist attack."
"It is time for those criminals to stop exploiting the name of Palestine through their terrorist actions," Fayyad said in a statement Wednesday.
That's the first time I've ever seen anyone in that part of the world come out and speak against violence committed in their name.
They should bury this @$$H0(e with a side of bacon and put a fire hydrant on his grave, which is located in a dog park. Sick bastard.
40 also brings up a good point...besides arrested, why wasn't this guy deported years ago? He was under surveillance for years...someone in France dropped the ball.
Quote from: Gusington on March 22, 2012, 01:53:27 PM
40 also brings up a good point...besides arrested, why wasn't this guy deported years ago? He was under surveillance for years...someone in France dropped the ball.
France's borders, particularly from Algeria, are remarkably open. I saw the giant Tunisia/Algeria ferry leave nearly every time I was in Marseille's port. That thing is as big as a Carnival cruise ship.
Quote from: MikeGER on March 22, 2012, 10:24:25 AM
what i don't get.... they want him alive, but failed >:(
in German news there were reports: jihadist was hiding in bathroom when the French (lame excuse for a?) SWAT-team entered his place after getting him tired pretty good . he opened up, fired 30 shoots of the 300 rounds! fired in this incident. the Jihaidst jumps out of bathroom window (while police sniper got him in that procedure)
SWAT member told the press later, "he never witness such a heavy aggressive shooting from a suspect"
(what were they expecting? and what were they doing while training the snatch-op in a makeshift mock up of that house? French had time enuf... hell, you just need some poles, lines and blankets and a shooting range ...and full dress rehearsal is SOP, isnt it)
I really don't get it ...you enter the place with a heavy ballistic shield (and maybe a small indoor-drone/robot upfront too), guy opens up ...launcher team outside send couple of 40mm flashbangs and a tear-gas through the bathroom window ... assault team rolls/toss couple of teargas and flashbangs too... and jumps upon him after the last bang... he obviously didn't had rigged the place or his body otherwise he had blown it up on first breach/uncovering of his place
i am disappointed
now he cant be questioned... shit!
You are right. It should have been dead easy. If only you had been there to show them how to do it right. *sigh* Where are the experts with real life experience when you need them?
In this day and age it may be a good idea to beef those borders up. Beyond that the guy was already arrested multiple times! And already being watched!! He was already a known danger. Come on people.
Quote from: Gusington on March 22, 2012, 02:07:42 PM
In this day and age it may be a good idea to beef those borders up. Beyond that the guy was already arrested multiple times! And already being watched!! He was already a known danger. Come on people.
I thought this was quite an interesting article though:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17476996
^Well let's look at the author there too. Daughter of a French fascist. I imagine the reality falls somewhere between the liberal and ultra-conservative side. A good start would be to keep criminals out of the country. Or at least better watched.
Quote from: Gusington on March 22, 2012, 02:12:56 PM
^Well let's look at the author there too. Daughter of a French fascist. I imagine the reality falls somewhere between the liberal and ultra-conservative side. A good start would be to keep criminals out of the country. Or at least better watched.
The author? Marine Le Pen didn't write it.
The problem was this guy was born in France, so hard to keep him out...
Not Hugh Schofield the article author, I mean the author of the quote in the intro...Marine Le Pen. This incident will of course be manipulated by people of all political stripes.
He was apparently on the radar of the French for a long time. There's an in-depth report here: http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/23/world/europe/france-missed-signals/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Changed the thread title to match reality.
Quote from: Hartford688 on March 22, 2012, 02:06:36 PM
You are right. It should have been dead easy. If only you had been there to show them how to do it right. *sigh* Where are the experts with real life experience when you need them?
...so do you have my curriculum vita infront of you ;-)
Mike_GER are you a police officer? Soldier?
no, and i never fired a shot in anger
well, but in my wild IPSC years (when IPSC was young and wild, and so was i and my buddies:) ) my first shooting instructor was the same who trained SEK (German SWAT) the other day ... and we had access to the same large private contractor owned outdoor range on weekends ... so large, you could drive on it with a car, and they were car wrecks and other 'interesting stuff' too...
(to keep in appliance with German law: we allways shot on ring targets and only one guy in the 'parcour' so)
...some interesting guys with some interresting occupations where hanging out in the early IPSC community those days ... ;D
this is a public forum ...so DADT (even so its 25 years ago, i am very glad that 1. digi/cellular cams did not exist those days;) ...and 2. i never took offers for 'trips' later ... for expl to Yugoslavia)
I am so confused by that response. So you trained with some swat guys and thankfully forgot your camera at home as you had a bromance in a former soviet country, well at least that what I got out of it.
And they shot at acrobats on a large range.
Bison, not that DADT ;)
Centurion, well maybe ring-targets are the wrong expression :P let say targets with rings ;)
Wait. You gave me the winky smiley. I'm so confused right now.
Quote from: Bison on March 23, 2012, 03:01:04 PM
Wait. You gave me the winky smiley. I'm so confused right now.
LOL!
Quote from: MikeGER on March 23, 2012, 02:58:44 PM
Bison, not that DADT ;)
Centurion, well maybe ring-targets are the wrong expression :P let say targets with rings ;)
Mike, I was referring to parcour (parkour) guy as the acrobat!! :) Ring targets I understood!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parcours
European Kung Fu, cool.
Makes 'em harder to hit.
Quote from: Centurion40 on March 23, 2012, 03:04:35 PM
Mike, I was referring to parcour (parkour) guy as the acrobat!! :) Ring targets I understood!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parcours
ahh i see.. that kind of 'Parkour' didnt exist those days too ;) ...the right english expression would be 'shooting stage(s)' i guess
Clear as mud.
Quote from: MikeGER on March 23, 2012, 03:35:37 PM
Quote from: Centurion40 on March 23, 2012, 03:04:35 PM
Mike, I was referring to parcour (parkour) guy as the acrobat!! :) Ring targets I understood!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parcours
ahh i see.. that kind of 'Parkour' didnt exist those days too ;) ...the right english expression would be 'shooting stage(s)' i guess
Ah Mike, we're just busting your balls (an American expression for deliberately giving you a hard time)! Sounds like you were on the fringe of some wildness.
The Canadian expression would be "We're just busting your balls, eh!"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17526424
Well I approve of Al-jazeera handing over the film to the police, refusing to broadcast it, and not passing it to others. The correct thing to do.
But this staggered me:
Meanwhile, Merah's Algeria-based father has been sharply criticised for saying he wants to sue France over his son's death.
Mohamed Benalel Merah has said he wants to bury his son, who reportedly had joint French and Algerian citizenship, in Algeria.
His accusation that the French authorities deliberately chose to kill his son rather than capture him has caused indignation in Paris.
"If I were the father of such a monster, I would shut my mouth in shame," said French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe.
Alain Juppe says it correctly. Getting shot by the sniper was the easiest Merah deserved. Sounds like the father may be deserving of similar.
Not much to go on but that father hardly sounds like he is ashamed of his son's conduct. He'll be lucky if they ship the entire family off to Algeria for good measure and don't let the boat sink halfway there as an object lesson.
I have a new respect for the French Foreign Minister. Well said.
Amen.
Quote from: Hartford688 on March 27, 2012, 02:42:31 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17526424
Well I approve of Al-jazeera handing over the film to the police, refusing to broadcast it, and not passing it to others. The correct thing to do.
But this staggered me:
Meanwhile, Merah's Algeria-based father has been sharply criticised for saying he wants to sue France over his son's death.
Mohamed Benalel Merah has said he wants to bury his son, who reportedly had joint French and Algerian citizenship, in Algeria.
His accusation that the French authorities deliberately chose to kill his son rather than capture him has caused indignation in Paris.
"If I were the father of such a monster, I would shut my mouth in shame," said French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe.
Alain Juppe says it correctly. Getting shot by the sniper was the easiest Merah deserved. Sounds like the father may be deserving of similar.
The sad thing is that this *could* spark Parisian riots. The outer arrondisements of Paris are largely impoverished and largely Muslim immigrants (many from Tunisia and Algeria). If they feel like the police went over the line or they sympathize with this guy's message, it could be a replay of those last Paris riots. Hopefully it will not. I haven't heard any rumblings of this so far, but that Father needs to keep his mouth shut, like the Foreign minister said.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on March 27, 2012, 09:31:04 PM
The sad thing is that this *could* spark Parisian riots.
...the more riots in the
Banlieues - based on this events = sympathy for a
homegrown islamic terrorist - the better
because this would gave at least a slim chance that the silent majority finally wake up and force the politicians to change immigration and naturalization laws ... better on the European scale.
so that
1. Citizenship to old and future naturalized citizen is on a 25 years parole (the law works retroactively too)
2. Offspring of immigrants get the citizenship only at a age of 18 and only on a 10 years parole.
3. Citizenchip can be revoked if criminal record reach a certain to be defined threshold. And if a second citizenship exits even faster.
4. Immigrant partents can be kept more accountable for their fail of parenting of their offspring -> revoke of citizenship (cause its on 25years parole) and expatriation
5. Expatriation of criminal elements are faster and easier to achieve. lesser appeal possibilities at higher courts
Quote from: MikeGER on March 28, 2012, 02:01:46 AM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on March 27, 2012, 09:31:04 PM
The sad thing is that this *could* spark Parisian riots.
...the more riots in the Banlieues - based on this events = sympathy for a homegrown islamic terrorist - the better
because this would gave at least a slim chance that the silent majority finally wake up and force the politicians to change immigration and naturalization laws ... better on the European scale.
so that
1. Citizenship to old and future naturalized citizen is on a 25 years parole (the law works retroactively too)
2. Offspring of immigrants get the citizenship only at a age of 18 and only on a 10 years parole.
3. Citizenchip can be revoked if criminal record reach a certain to be defined threshold. And if a second citizenship exits even faster.
4. Immigrant partents can be kept more accountable for their fail of parenting of their offspring -> revoke of citizenship (cause its on 25years parole) and expatriation
5. Expatriation of criminal elements are faster and easier to achieve. lesser appeal possibilities at higher courts
This is an interesting suggestion and one that gets to the heart of the issue.
These radicals are best defined as "enemy combatants" and one of the overriding questions about them is the degree of support they receive from their family and community. The idea of granting citizenship is not supposed to be so that the Muslims can have their own
Renconquista (or an expansion beyond Charles the Hammer's line).
Some folks howl when the Israelis bulldoze houses in Gaza after a suicide attack, but if they don't respect their own lives, letting everyone know up front that the entire family's welfare will be at stake might help clarify the mind.
I side with the "right wing" on this issue.
I mean it's one thing to have assimilation/melting pot/cultural mosaic 'pangs' in immigrant nations like Canada and the USA, but why in the hell are nations like France, Britain, Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, etc. tolerating these kinds of internal challenges to the national identity, being imported by immigrants (legal or not)??!!
If I were to immigrate to France, I know, going in, that I will need to conform to French language, culture, etc.
To quote Rush (out of context) "Conform or be cast out."
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fidiotflashback.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F02%2Frush-788338.jpg&hash=b4a63fcb8baf6791025b4f712629026d4b4dd14e)
The problem with the suggestion regarding changes to immigration law is that is will likely not improve the problem for France. Because France kept the North African colonies well past WWII, there are people of Algeria descent who are my age that are considered French citizens as natives of the former DOM-TOM. The people living in the banlieues are not all immigrants, in fact they may qualify from French citizenry and still view themselves as "French." The shooter in this event is a case in point.
Remember, this is not only a cultural battle, it is a socio-economic one. The situation of the former colonial citizens living in the outskirts of Paris and Marseille is fairly dire. I heard horror stories from a social worker I know in Marseille.
Unfortunately, this socio-economic problem can easily turn French citizens of North African descent into sympathizers of radical terrorist groups. I don't have a good answer for what to do here, I just hope we don't see more violence.
I suspect that it may also be hard for us in the US and Canada to realize the size of these separate communities outside
places like Paris and Lyon. We're not talking the equivalent of 'Chinatowns' here but Chinacities...
19 people arrested in France: http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/world/europe/france-arrests/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Good! Probably not nearly enough, but good!
Good for them. I wonder if the pendulum is beginning to swing...and if other countries like Germany and the UK will take a harder line.
Quote from: Gusington on March 30, 2012, 09:59:27 AM
Good for them. I wonder if the pendulum is beginning to swing...and if other countries like Germany and the UK will take a harder line.
UK has factions wanted to go more hard-line. Germany does too, but the post-war political milieu of Germany makes changing away from an asylum state more difficult. They have been concerned about Turkish immigrants for over two decades, however.