https://medium.com/war-is-boring/751f5ccd091
Michael
Thanks for that Iced T
That's DicedT. IcedT is my really cool cousin!
Quote from: DicedT on October 23, 2013, 10:13:17 PM
That's DicedT. IcedT is my really cool cousin!
Keep that up and I'll get BoB in here to deliver your some
punishment
There was a good summation of the 'death of the tank' and the leapfrog of tank-ATGM in one of the interludes between short stories in Drake's original Hammer's Slammers book. Many of the same concepts (without the specific historical examples, b/c Drake was writing sci-fi) are elaborated on in that mini-chapter in his book.
Drake's experience was formed in large part by serving with the 11th ACR in Vietnam, so he saw things up-close in action.
Didn't one of Jerry Pournelle's Mercenary stories have unsupported tanks being destroyed by Valkenberg(?)'s infantry?
Michael
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 24, 2013, 05:37:51 AM
There was a good summation of the 'death of the tank' and the leapfrog of tank-ATGM in one of the interludes between short stories in Drake's original Hammer's Slammers book. Many of the same concepts (without the specific historical examples, b/c Drake was writing sci-fi) are elaborated on in that mini-chapter in his book.
Drake's experience was formed in large part by serving with the 11th ACR in Vietnam, so he saw things up-close in action.
Funny, but I'm reading Hammer's Slammers right now.
^^ the original? or one of the full-length novels?
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 24, 2013, 08:57:33 AM
^^ the original? or one of the full-length novels?
I bought a used library copy of "The Complete Hammer's Slammers Volume One" on Amazon for like $3 or something. About half way through. It's a bunch of short stories, but well done.
That's the original stories. Many of them were published in magazines before being collected into the original book in the mid-80s. The new "complete" collection is 3 softcovers that include multiple novels plus all the short stories. The shorts are the real meat of the series, but I personally loved the novel "The Sharp End". The other novels were kinda 'meh' to me.
And David Drake lives about 20-30 minutes down the road from me over in Chapel Hill.
I wanted this one for a while... now the price has dropped so I'll get it!!!!!!
... seems it was full price forever
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F71t0jIfAB5L._AA1400_.jpg&hash=bdd9a5a23a81c3336a17d54739a4dced60341088)
Tanks for the memories guys.
Interesting article. I'm no war expert but I'm pretty sure even today when an infantryman comes up against a tank he still feels some terror in his heart. Even if he has an anti tank missile.
A longbowman could take down a medieval knight. Pretty sure a fair number of them shit their pants in the process, however. The shock factor should not be overlooked.
To Mike's article: I found it interesting that some anti-armor rabble-rousers would point out that in Iraq, there were very few engagements involving US tanks after the summer of '03, despite having several hundred of them in-theater at any one time.
Some folks saw it as a sign of obsolescence.
The thinking half of the proletariat recognized that it was a testament to the deterrent power of THE TANK.
When the US parked a tank somewhere to secure a location, that sucker was secure, because everyone gave it a wide berth.
No one wanted to f%$# with THE TANK, and no one wanted to get f%$#ed with by THE TANK.
That's not obsolescence. That's scaring the crap out of people into leaving you alone.
QuoteEven if he has an anti tank missile.
I remember reading somewhere that Army SOP if shit came rolling down Fulda was to let the tank just get into the lines and then hit it with no less then 12 LAWs. 12 LAWs to maybe take out a T-72.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 24, 2013, 02:50:24 PM
A longbowman could take down a medieval knight. Pretty sure a fair number of them shit their pants in the process, however. The shock factor should not be overlooked.
To Mike's article: I found it interesting that some anti-armor rabble-rousers would point out that in Iraq, there were very few engagements involving US tanks after the summer of '03, despite having several hundred of them in-theater at any one time.
Some folks saw it as a sign of obsolescence.
The thinking half of the proletariat recognized that it was a testament to the deterrent power of THE TANK.
When the US parked a tank somewhere to secure a location, that sucker was secure, because everyone gave it a wide berth.
No one wanted to f%$# with THE TANK, and no one wanted to get f%$#ed with by THE TANK.
That's not obsolescence. That's scaring the crap out of people into leaving you alone.
I hears similar stories with the L2 with Canadian Forces
one good LAW in the treads = mobility kill. Then just run up the back of it and drop a grenade in the hatch. Even if they get the treads working, no one is going to want to crew a tank with the guts of the previous crew all over it.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 24, 2013, 03:11:10 PM
one good LAW in the treads = mobility kill. Then just run up the back of it and drop a grenade in the hatch. Even if they get the treads working, no one is going to want to crew a tank with the guts of the previous crew all over it.
similar to how packs of predators take down larger game .... though frequently there are more casualties than just the prey
QuoteEven if they get the treads working, no one is going to want to crew a tank with the guts of the previous crew all over it.
I dont think they told replacement M-4 crews who was in the tank before them.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on October 24, 2013, 03:15:58 PM
QuoteEven if they get the treads working, no one is going to want to crew a tank with the guts of the previous crew all over it.
I dont think they told replacement M-4 crews who was in the tank before them.
Usually when an M4 crew went down, the tank went with it. If they recovered / repaired them to get them WSRO'ed back into service, they cleaned up the remnants of the previous crew in the process. The Russians didn't take that much care in Afghanistan / Chechnya
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on October 24, 2013, 03:15:58 PM
QuoteEven if they get the treads working, no one is going to want to crew a tank with the guts of the previous crew all over it.
I dont think they told replacement M-4 crews who was in the tank before them.
my great uncle worked in a refurbishing unit....
rifles and rucks
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 24, 2013, 03:18:08 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on October 24, 2013, 03:15:58 PM
QuoteEven if they get the treads working, no one is going to want to crew a tank with the guts of the previous crew all over it.
I dont think they told replacement M-4 crews who was in the tank before them.
Usually when an M4 crew went down, the tank with with it. If they recovered / repaired them to get them WSRO'ed back into service, they cleaned up the remnants of the previous crew in the process. The Russians didn't take that much care in Afghanistan / Chechnya
nice.... ::)
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 24, 2013, 03:18:08 PM
Usually when an M4 crew went down, the tank with with it.
just had to save this tidbit of grammar. ;)
it's been a long, long, loooooooong, annoying day here, of cleaning up lots of other people's bullshit.
You're lucky I'm typing in English and not Illusin or Vylan or Pellinese.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 24, 2013, 03:18:08 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on October 24, 2013, 03:15:58 PM
QuoteEven if they get the treads working, no one is going to want to crew a tank with the guts of the previous crew all over it.
I dont think they told replacement M-4 crews who was in the tank before them.
Usually when an M4 crew went down, the tank went with it. If they recovered / repaired them to get them WSRO'ed back into service, they cleaned up the remnants of the previous crew in the process. The Russians didn't take that much care in Afghanistan / Chechnya
Have you read Death Traps? Reading that I get the sense that we spent more time than you might think recovering and refitting them.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XUAETO/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000XUAETO&linkCode=as2&tag=grogheads-20
^^^ thats what I was thinking.
pressure clean the guts out, slap a coat of paint on it and give it to a crew with 2 days training only to repeat the process 15 hours later.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on October 24, 2013, 03:55:22 PM
^^^ thats what I was thinking.
pressure clean the guts out, slap a coat of paint on it and give it to a crew with 2 days training only to repeat the process 15 hours later.
Cooper said a lot of the time they would find a chunk of the round than penetrated the armor. They'd take it and weld it back into the hole it made, grind it down, paint it, and the new crews were never the wiser that a piece of the round that killed the last crew was being used to protect them.
I'm not saying that we recovered 100% of the tanks that brewed up. But Cooper's job was in a refit outfit. I *suspect* that's why there's something of a discrepancy when it comes to discussing "how bad is the Sherman?" We produced X many Shermans and killed Y many Panzers. What's missing from that equation is how many times we recycled the same Sherman. The guys who claim the Sherman was better than what most folks around here know it to be (I'm speculating) haven't included that recycling number in their analysis.
Their thread - 6 posts of pablum http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3447254
Our thread - 25 posts, only 50% pablum
can we claim victory? ;)
Only 50% pablum? That's way below our average.
I love it when Mirth fondles my pablum.
It's my gentle touch.
Pablum?
I face a choice. Should I look it up on Dictionary.com or go straight to UrbanDictionary?
Tell me, how did you find the kitten meat?
I would have to agree that the quality of posts is higher here than Matrix, or at least regarding military history and current events.
The pablum conversation notwithstanding.
Michael
Quote from: DicedT on October 25, 2013, 06:06:28 PM
I would have to agree that the quality of posts is higher here than Matrix, or at least regarding military history and current events.
The pablum conversation notwithstanding.
Michael
Please.
Any attempt to make us look respectable will only encourage the opposite behavior.
Quote from: mirth on October 25, 2013, 04:38:58 PM
It's my gentle touch.
gentle.... you tickle it like a chainsaw you brute!
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on October 25, 2013, 06:07:48 PM
Quote from: mirth on October 25, 2013, 04:38:58 PM
It's my gentle touch.
gentle.... you tickle it like a chainsaw you brute!
It's relative. I don't handle you like Smuck would.
Quote from: LongBlade on October 25, 2013, 06:07:22 PMAny attempt to make us look respectable will only encourage the opposite behavior.
as evidenced by the following 2 posts... ::)
I got it!
I figured it out!
Pablum is the Roman cousin of Pablo!
iAye caramba!
anyway....
to get back on point, there is no shortage of kit to make tanks all but invulnerable to atgm's.
ERA, Trophy, laser jammers, modular armor, warning systems etc.
it really boils down to how much you want to spend on your tank. even without active defence IDF Merkiva's took a pounding while not losing very many crew members or total write off's in tanks.
Rather than throw more money at defensive systems why not have anti-tank weapons blow up in their own face. Would drone mounted lasers melting a small hole into enemy weapons set them off? First order of business seems to be spot the weapon; drone seems the best platform. If you can see it, laze it. If it doesnt blow at least make it malfunction.
Doctrine Man! just picked this article up on his Facebook feed.