Typhoon Haiyan is battering the central Philippines with sustained winds of up to 320 km/h (199mph).
Meteorologists say that if initial estimates based on satellite images are borne out, it could be the most powerful storm ever to make landfall.
The storm has forced millions to seek shelter in 20 provinces. At least three people have died, but it may take days before the full damage is known.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24846813 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24846813)
Wow, looks like the Philippines really got slammed. :( Just in one town, 1000 dead (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/11/09/strongest-typhoon-year-hits-philippines/).
My uncle was scheduled to arrive in the Philippines on Tuesday/Wednesday. He winters in/around Angeles City. Tried texting him a couple of times... no response yet. :(
Keeping my fingers crossed for your uncle,
40Cent. Hopefully he just can't get in touch because the power and/or communication grid is down in his area.
Quote from: steve58 on November 09, 2013, 09:41:51 AM
Wow, looks like the Philippines really got slammed. :( Just in one town, 1000 dead (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/11/09/strongest-typhoon-year-hits-philippines/).
Jesus.
Quote from: Martok on November 09, 2013, 10:45:10 AM
Keeping my fingers crossed for your uncle, 40Cent. Hopefully he just can't get in touch because the power and/or communication grid is down in his area.
Me too, like Martok said hopefully its just an infrastructure issue.
I suspect that is the situation. He usually stays in a hotel for his 3-4 month sojourn, not a hut on a beach. Probably a $100/week place (or less), but for the Philippines (as I understand things) that's pretty good. I'm sure that he's fine. Still....
Thanks for the thoughts fellas.
The view from space, it's huge...
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.montrealgazette.com%2Fnews%2Fcms%2Fbinary%2F9148440.jpg&hash=49b39383ef2893c250e95eb3e27b344bb859bfb5)
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2013/11/09/world/asia/20131110_PHILIPPINES_HTML.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2013/11/09/world/asia/20131110_PHILIPPINES_HTML.html?_r=0)
thankfully those pictures are about 400 miles south of where 40's uncle is supposed to be.
keeping my fingers crossed.
Just been watching some reports on the BBC news - the devastation and loss of life is terrible.
The storm is going to cross Hainan Island (PRC) before it hits Vietnam. There are millions of folks living there as well. Hopefully the storm will have weakened a lot by then.
Quote from: Staggerwing on November 10, 2013, 02:45:43 PM
The storm is going to cross Hainan Island (PRC) before it hits Vietnam. There are millions of folks living there as well. Hopefully the storm will have weakened a lot by then.
It weakened to a Cat 4 before it hit land in the Philippines. Could strengthen again. A Cat 4 is still a big storm.
40 have you heard from your uncle?
Quote from: Gusington on November 10, 2013, 06:21:29 PM
40 have you heard from your uncle?
Aye, I was wondering the same thing.
I know plenty of others have said it already, but I sincerely hope your uncle is safe and well. My thoughts and prayers go out to all of those in the Philippines who have endured the storm.
let your Christian leanings take hold, those poor bastards are gonna need lots of help rebuilding.... typhus and cholera are going to hit them next, when they're down.
Yeah, the ugliness is far from over. I was thinking of the supply response quite a bit yesterday. Bulldoze the roads from the ports clear, setup a fan of camps for distribution, etc.
I would imagine that Subic Bay and Clark Field will be hubs for relief logistics. I know we resigned leasing rights again but I dont know if the bases are active yet.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 11, 2013, 12:13:53 PM
I would imagine that Subic Bay and Clark Field will be hubs for relief logistics. I know we resigned leasing rights again but I dont know if the bases are active yet.
heard that some marines are coming in, but no nuke carrier? Damn things are a floating power station, hospital and water treatment plant
Does any country have a dedicated disaster emergency freighter?
Does the Mercy and Comfort qualify?
I was thinking more dedicated supply than hospital ships. They are cool ships to have though.
USN has military supply ships. What should panamax size emergency response ship have? How's about divert 50% of UN beaurocracy funds to a dedicated emergency relief ship? It follows bag ass storms around.
a large clean water hold to send out water bladders immediately
amphibious landing vessels
front end loaders, small dozers for road clearing
a dozen 5 ton trucks
fuels
grains
tents
cook stoves
come on, work with me on it. What else?
youre basiclly asking for a small fleet of our LHDs.
There should be some kind of security unit involved for sure.
Yes, having it fall to pirates would be embarrassing.
and communications... until they get their comms infrastructure up and running
Call me old fashioned but I like my disaster relief delivered by US Marines. Maybe the Filipinos not so much.
Quote from: Windigo on November 11, 2013, 05:10:08 PM
and communications... until they get their comms infrastructure up and running
Mobile cell tower trucks? link to the ship then ship to satellite?
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 11, 2013, 05:10:02 PM
Yes, having it fall to pirates would be embarrassing.
they tried that once and it didnt work out so well for them.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/04/01/navy.pirates/
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2010/1124/Five-Somali-pirates-convicted-of-attacking-US-Navy-ship
Someone read your mind Windi. GW is being sent to support the relief effort.
Quote from: Gusington on November 11, 2013, 04:26:41 PM
There should be some kind of security unit involved for sure.
Is the UN and security unit an oxymoron.
depends on the UN security unit. I dont recall people dicking around with German KFOR units.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 11, 2013, 09:18:43 PM
depends on the UN security unit. I dont recall people dicking around with German KFOR units.
And nobody screwed with U.N.C.L.E. and came out on top.
Quote from: mirth on November 11, 2013, 09:39:16 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 11, 2013, 09:18:43 PM
depends on the UN security unit. I dont recall people dicking around with German KFOR units.
And nobody screwed with U.N.C.L.E. and came out on top.
As the
Technological
Hierarchy for the
Removal of
Undesirables and the
Subjugation of
Humanity found out...
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 11, 2013, 05:15:58 PM
Quote from: Windigo on November 11, 2013, 05:10:08 PM
and communications... until they get their comms infrastructure up and running
Mobile cell tower trucks? link to the ship then ship to satellite?
satellite would likely be a quicker setup.... satellite phones are fairly common place
Quote from: Windigo on November 11, 2013, 11:23:11 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 11, 2013, 05:15:58 PM
Quote from: Windigo on November 11, 2013, 05:10:08 PM
and communications... until they get their comms infrastructure up and running
Mobile cell tower trucks? link to the ship then ship to satellite?
satellite would likely be a quicker setup.... satellite phones are fairly common place
Yeah but people already have their cells which may have a charge for a few days. People will be trying to call them at that number. You cant buy expensive sat phones then give them out.
Quote from: Windigo on November 11, 2013, 11:23:11 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 11, 2013, 05:15:58 PM
Quote from: Windigo on November 11, 2013, 05:10:08 PM
and communications... until they get their comms infrastructure up and running
Mobile cell tower trucks? link to the ship then ship to satellite?
satellite would likely be a quicker setup.... satellite phones are fairly common place
Yes, but the sats are not, nor is their bandwidth.
maybe a graph will help you warm up to the idea. ;)
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 11, 2013, 11:49:28 PM
Quote from: Windigo on November 11, 2013, 11:23:11 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 11, 2013, 05:15:58 PM
Quote from: Windigo on November 11, 2013, 05:10:08 PM
and communications... until they get their comms infrastructure up and running
Mobile cell tower trucks? link to the ship then ship to satellite?
satellite would likely be a quicker setup.... satellite phones are fairly common place
Yeah but people already have their cells which may have a charge for a few days. People will be trying to call them at that number. You cant buy expensive sat phones then give them out.
who said anything about civies?
they'd be the last to get them
"food, water, shelter, emergency health care... now get the fuck outta line for the next one...."
Quote from: Gusington on November 10, 2013, 06:21:29 PM
40 have you heard from your uncle?
Nothing. :(
He has no kids (or so he confesses), so I'm checking in with other cousins to see if they've heard anything from him. He lives in Edmonton, the cousins live in Vancouver, and I live in Halifax. We're literally spread across Canada.
I let ya'll know once I hear something.
Quote from: Centurion40 on November 12, 2013, 09:40:37 AM
Quote from: Gusington on November 10, 2013, 06:21:29 PM
40 have you heard from your uncle?
Nothing. :(
He has no kids (or so he confesses), so I'm checking in with other cousins to see if they've heard anything from him. He lives in Edmonton, the cousins live in Vancouver, and I live in Halifax. We're literally spread across Canada.
I let ya'll know once I hear something.
The NYT reported this morning that the 10,000 estimated death toll figure in Tacloban is officially about 1700. More could come but there may be hope that this storm wasn't nearly as powerful as advertised. Still tragically powerful enough, but maybe not quite as bad as feared. Let's hope so.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/13/world/asia/anger-rising-over-conditions-in-tacloban-ravaged-philippine-city.html?amp;_r=0&_r=0&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1384272026-pXXWySiFSBtdMOEyOlstRQ
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F2%2F2f%2FTyphoon_Haiyan_2013_making_landfall.gif&hash=02f99ff880df277a8742fff39c4a6de59518a8a6)
Still keeping my fingers crossed for your uncle, 40Cent.
Quote from: Martok on November 12, 2013, 12:45:11 PM
Still keeping my fingers crossed for your uncle, 40Cent.
My cousin head from him, he's ok! He was north of Manila when the storm hit. Whew....
good news
Quote from: Centurion40 on November 12, 2013, 05:00:33 PM
Quote from: Martok on November 12, 2013, 12:45:11 PM
Still keeping my fingers crossed for your uncle, 40Cent.
My cousin head from him, he's ok! He was north of Manila when the storm hit. Whew....
Good. Next question: is the area he's at safe enough to stay? It's one thing to be OK. It's another to be trapped in a disaster area with no ability to exit.
Quote from: Centurion40 on November 12, 2013, 05:00:33 PM
Quote from: Martok on November 12, 2013, 12:45:11 PM
Still keeping my fingers crossed for your uncle, 40Cent.
My cousin head from him, he's ok! He was north of Manila when the storm hit. Whew....
Glad to hear
40Cent!
Quote from: Centurion40 on November 12, 2013, 05:00:33 PM
Quote from: Martok on November 12, 2013, 12:45:11 PM
Still keeping my fingers crossed for your uncle, 40Cent.
My cousin head from him, he's ok! He was north of Manila when the storm hit. Whew....
Awesome news, man!
Great news, 40C.
THANK FUCKING GOD!!!
no disrespect to religious people but I was getting worried for ya buddy.
so... did they find him with strippers and booze?
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 12, 2013, 06:33:27 PM
so... did they find him with strippers and booze?
That would be Typhoon Mirth.
Quote from: Centurion40 on November 12, 2013, 05:00:33 PM
Quote from: Martok on November 12, 2013, 12:45:11 PM
Still keeping my fingers crossed for your uncle, 40Cent.
My cousin head from him, he's ok! He was north of Manila when the storm hit. Whew....
WOO HOO!!!! So glad to hear he's alive. I hope he's safe and sound but being alive is a definite prerequisite for all the rest.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 12, 2013, 06:33:27 PM
THANK FUCKING GOD!!!
I see we worship the same diety - more or less
Good news 40.
Awesome 40, buy your uncle a new bottle of sumthin sumthin
for what Ive heard hes probably drinkin the sumthin sumthin and hitting the sumthin sumthin. 8)
I like his style.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 12, 2013, 08:41:49 PM
I like his style.
Or jealous that your not able to go with him. :P
of course.
Good news, 40. Is he somewhere that he can sit tight for awhile? Barring that, any idea when he can get out of there?
Quote from: LongBlade on November 12, 2013, 05:06:25 PM
Quote from: Centurion40 on November 12, 2013, 05:00:33 PM
Quote from: Martok on November 12, 2013, 12:45:11 PM
Still keeping my fingers crossed for your uncle, 40Cent.
My cousin head from him, he's ok! He was north of Manila when the storm hit. Whew....
Good. Next question: is the area he's at safe enough to stay? It's one thing to be OK. It's another to be trapped in a disaster area with no ability to exit.
Apparently he told my cousin that "we weren't hit too bad", so I can only assume that everything is basically ok where he is. But he still hasn't answered any of my texts.
The report on TV last night indicated that about half of the cellphone service had been restored. I'm not sure if that's across the country or just in the Tacloban area which was hardest hit.
The official death toll from the storm itself remains about 2500, no where near 10,000. This could be revised, but for now that's the official word.
However, the lack of infrastructure means that starvation, dehydration, and disease may yet raise those numbers. Making this worse is an apparent lack of organization in getting relief to those who need it.
5 days after and they are now just getting a majority of the airport strips cleared and open...
*face palm*
methinks they were dealing with other things like pulling survivors and bodies out of the rubble.
Centurion40, great news that your uncle is OK...
Listening to the radio today, and the problem isn't a lack of supplies but the ability to get them into the areas that need them.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 13, 2013, 12:44:22 PM
methinks they were dealing with other things like pulling survivors and bodies out of the rubble.
that is just one of the priorities for the living
Its a pretty damn big obe when its your family.
Windy have you actually lived through a huge natural disaster?
Quote from: steve58 on November 13, 2013, 01:55:09 PM
Centurion40, great news that your uncle is OK...
Yeah, thanks.
I figured that, even though he's now into his 60s, he survived a stint in the RCN, then went onto a career servicing microwave towers in Alberta (which he also survived, even in the frosty northern Alberta winters)- which paid for his numerous "exploratory" trips to Asia... what I'm getting to is that he survived all of that, a typhoon wasn't going to get him. A jealous Philippino husband, or brother, or son, or pimp, or cop, or cell-mate
might get him, but a typhoon won't.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 13, 2013, 03:15:57 PM
Its a pretty damn big obe when its your family.
absolutely... but for disaster survivors in a poor country... thats just day one/two, the ol'gubbmint aint gonna be running in with $2000 dollar prepaid debit cards and water purification tablets - help aint coming down the road until the airports and seaports are working and foreign aide gets there ... just the reality and the government should have planned accordingly
people will start dying of waterborne illnesses in a few more days, and that will kill more people than the typhoon
Windy was there for the Big Bang and then everything that came after.
Quote from: OJsDad on November 13, 2013, 02:10:07 PM
Listening to the radio today, and the problem isn't a lack of supplies but the ability to get them into the areas that need them.
It's the same shit every time. Roads are blocked or washed out. The answer is obvious, dozers and front end loaders or even backhoes have to be there immediately to make the roads roads again. How many more F'ing times are we going to see the same thing? It's not like disasters are going to stop, they are going to increase in frequency and/or magnitude.
Quote from: Gusington on November 13, 2013, 03:43:30 PM
Windy was there for the Big Bang and then everything that came after.
He shot the big bang!
To me the question is about how much a country relies on their Coast Guard for such things. Should it be national or more pooled resources? For island based countries I would think their point of diminishing returns leans more towards their own coast guard.
If Windy shot the big bang, does that make him the Father of Us All?
No
Quote from: Gusington on November 13, 2013, 04:38:24 PM
If Windy shot the big bang, does that make him the Father of Us All?
No, just around prior to it.
This whole age schtick is getting old...
Quote from: Gusington on November 13, 2013, 03:43:30 PM
Windy was there for the Big Bang and then everything that came after.
Windy knows everything. Just send him down there to straighten things out.
Quote from: LongBlade on November 13, 2013, 05:46:26 PM
Quote from: Gusington on November 13, 2013, 03:43:30 PM
Windy was there for the Big Bang and then everything that came after.
Windy knows everything. Just send him down there to straighten things out.
Petty sarcasm noted, but put aside temporarily.
There are many, easily availabe, manuals on natural disaster planning and response available. Anyone who has been an emergency first responder gets to be familiar with the basic principles. My involvement goes far beyond first responder but into response planning. I ve had to read and get proficient with several manuals detailing dam failure, toxic releases from large petro-plants, and large scale forest fires. These can affect land areas hundreds of square miles in size. Always always ALWAYS is safe access to the disaster area paramount.
Suggested reading: anything from FEMA directed to Emergency Response Personel and/or local governments
So park your pettiness enough to realize you're out of line.
you also live in a first world country. last I checked that aint the PI.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 13, 2013, 06:41:29 PM
you also live in a first world country. last I checked that aint the PI.
principles of disaster response/recovery are the same regardless of where you are
my original point about it taking 5 days to partially open the airports still stands.... its a fuckup
principles may be the same but the ability to act on those principles is not. now stop being such an elitist snob. its unbecoming a socialist like you.
Quote from: Windigo on November 13, 2013, 06:44:07 PM
principles of disaster response/recovery are the same regardless of where you are
my original point about it taking 5 days to partially open the airports still stands.... its a fuckup
you may plan for disaster relief for your environment but the circumstances change with geography and type of disaster. hurricanes have this habit of spreading debris everywhere and unlike snow it doesnt melt away.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 13, 2013, 06:47:37 PM
principles may be the same but the ability to act on those principles is not. now stop being such an elitist snob. its unbecoming a socialist like you.
Ask yourself how long it should take to clear an airport runway by hand? How long to restore backup power? Knowing that all airports designated as international or significant regional have to have it? We are not talking local standards but international standards.
Somewhere in the chain of command somone didn't give the order andOr make it happen. Third world means poor, not stupid.
Quote from: Windigo on November 13, 2013, 06:44:07 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 13, 2013, 06:41:29 PM
you also live in a first world country. last I checked that aint the PI.
principles of disaster response/recovery are the same regardless of where you are
my original point about it taking 5 days to partially open the airports still stands.... its a fuckup
It's about 1000km to Manila so a ship going 20knots (about 2:1 ) would take about 25hrs. The volume of goods required in an emergency means it has to be ready to go, you can't call vendors to start shipping. It does not seem like they had much ready in the few days the storm was bearing down on them.
Quote from: Windigo on November 13, 2013, 07:30:03 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 13, 2013, 06:47:37 PM
principles may be the same but the ability to act on those principles is not. now stop being such an elitist snob. its unbecoming a socialist like you.
Ask yourself how long it should take to clear an airport runway by hand? How long to restore backup power? Knowing that all airports designated as international or significant regional have to have it? We are not talking local standards but international standards.
Somewhere in the chain of command somone didn't give the order andOr make it happen. Third world means poor, not stupid.
I suspect it goes further back than the lack of a good order/plan.
It's about money. There's never enough money in the First World - we're lucky we can pull out a world-class military with world-class logistical ability to save us when it counts. How the heck do you think they managed to get proper/enough equipment for a place like the Philippines?
Quote from: LongBlade on November 13, 2013, 09:51:42 PM
Quote from: Windigo on November 13, 2013, 07:30:03 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 13, 2013, 06:47:37 PM
principles may be the same but the ability to act on those principles is not. now stop being such an elitist snob. its unbecoming a socialist like you.
Ask yourself how long it should take to clear an airport runway by hand? How long to restore backup power? Knowing that all airports designated as international or significant regional have to have it? We are not talking local standards but international standards.
Somewhere in the chain of command somone didn't give the order andOr make it happen. Third world means poor, not stupid.
I suspect it goes further back than the lack of a good order/plan.
It's about money. There's never enough money in the First World - we're lucky we can pull out a world-class military with world-class logistical ability to save us when it counts. How the heck do you think they managed to get proper/enough equipment for a place like the Philippines?
See you raise a good point. When a large scale natural disaster hits, even first world nations are stretched for resources. A 3rd world country that has frequent natural disasters knows its dependent on foreign aide, so that means ports - both air, land and sea. I repeat for emphasis, they know they are dependent on foreign aide.
Another factor is advanced warning. They knew it was coming and they knew it was going to be big -days before it hit. They should have been better prepared. There really is no excuse for airports not being operational 5 days afterwards.
This reeks of human error.
Yes, things messed up and *it* happens from time to time sadly. I know it's corny, but things like this can bring out the worst in people, however it can also bring out the best in them in a way. I'd prefer to let the people in the Philippines judge their own government and authorities. I don't they would appreciate me telling them what should have been done right after mother nature decided to rip them up a new one.
I hope this storm does not batter the rest of the neighboring countries as bad. Projections had shown it going towards central & northern Vietnam.
Quote from: Windigo on November 13, 2013, 07:30:03 PM
Ask yourself how long it should take to clear an airport runway by hand? How long to restore backup power? Knowing that all airports designated as international or significant regional have to have it? We are not talking local standards but international standards.
Somewhere in the chain of command somone didn't give the order andOr make it happen. Third world means poor, not stupid.
I dont need to ask myself, Ive seen the aftermath of quite a few hurricanes first hand. Wilma and Andrew come to mind. Ive seen streets and highways covered in debris for weeks after. how many hurricanes have you lived through and delt with for months afterwards?
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 13, 2013, 11:37:01 PM
Quote from: Windigo on November 13, 2013, 07:30:03 PM
Ask yourself how long it should take to clear an airport runway by hand? How long to restore backup power? Knowing that all airports designated as international or significant regional have to have it? We are not talking local standards but international standards.
Somewhere in the chain of command somone didn't give the order andOr make it happen. Third world means poor, not stupid.
I dont need to ask myself, Ive seen the aftermath of quite a few hurricanes first hand. Wilma and Andrew come to mind. Ive seen streets and highways covered in debris for weeks after. how many hurricanes have you lived through and delt with for months afterwards?
<raises hand> Two big ones. Several smaller ones.
My wife's territory used to include the Florida panhandle so she got to help them pick up after multiple ones.
Quote from: Windigo on November 13, 2013, 07:30:03 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 13, 2013, 06:47:37 PM
principles may be the same but the ability to act on those principles is not. now stop being such an elitist snob. its unbecoming a socialist like you.
Ask yourself how long it should take to clear an airport runway by hand? How long to restore backup power? Knowing that all airports designated as international or significant regional have to have it? We are not talking local standards but international standards.
Somewhere in the chain of command somone didn't give the order andOr make it happen. Third world means poor, not stupid.
Windy, I've set up a few FARPs in my time.....I am by no means an expert but I was sitting at the beginning of the runway holding on to the GAIL.
Getting a runway clear is not that difficult, run a bulldozer and you're done. The press gives the why aren't planes coming in while the Smucks in life will spend the next few weeks removing FOD from within 500 meters of the 'cleared' runway. Still the runway won't be ready for anything but touch and goes; no off loading of supplies because that will close down the runway unless you have a designated area........at least 500 meters from the runway...which means the Smucks have to clear that fucking area of FOD also.
They would be better to first clear the FOD hazards from around the airfield and then clearing the runway. If they clear the runway first every Smuck in the world will be pressuring them to play LAX. A couple geese brought down an airliner picture what all the post hurricane debris would do to an aircraft.
Aircraft can't run doglegs for an extended period of time, they have to land eventually and until the infrastructure is rebuilt.......we are going to have to stick with helicopters.
Regarding the International Standards; they are not really followed in some of these places. Bangui was/is an International Airport by standard, yet it still took over a week to prepare it to receive shipments for Rwanda back in 1993. It was the jump off point for all supplies going into Rwanda. Massive amounts of supplies were dropped of there and transferred to smaller aircraft.
No typhoon, just WAWA and it still took over a week before the supply aircraft could come in drop supplies and get out.
Quote from: Smuckatelli on November 14, 2013, 09:59:17 AM
Quote from: Windigo on November 13, 2013, 07:30:03 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 13, 2013, 06:47:37 PM
principles may be the same but the ability to act on those principles is not. now stop being such an elitist snob. its unbecoming a socialist like you.
Ask yourself how long it should take to clear an airport runway by hand? How long to restore backup power? Knowing that all airports designated as international or significant regional have to have it? We are not talking local standards but international standards.
Somewhere in the chain of command somone didn't give the order andOr make it happen. Third world means poor, not stupid.
Windy, I've set up a few FARPs in my time.....I am by no means an expert but I was sitting at the beginning of the runway holding on to the GAIL.
Getting a runway clear is not that difficult, run a bulldozer and you're done. The press gives the why aren't planes coming in while the Smucks in life will spend the next few weeks removing FOD from within 500 meters of the 'cleared' runway. Still the runway won't be ready for anything but touch and goes; no off loading of supplies because that will close down the runway unless you have a designated area........at least 500 meters from the runway...which means the Smucks have to clear that fucking area of FOD also.
They would be better to first clear the FOD hazards from around the airfield and then clearing the runway. If they clear the runway first every Smuck in the world will be pressuring them to play LAX. A couple geese brought down an airliner picture what all the post hurricane debris would do to an aircraft.
Aircraft can't run doglegs for an extended period of time, they have to land eventually and until the infrastructure is rebuilt.......we are going to have to stick with helicopters.
Regarding the International Standards; they are not really followed in some of these places. Bangui was/is an International Airport by standard, yet it still took over a week to prepare it to receive shipments for Rwanda back in 1993. It was the jump off point for all supplies going into Rwanda. Massive amounts of supplies were dropped of there and transferred to smaller aircraft.
No typhoon, just WAWA and it still took over a week before the supply aircraft could come in drop supplies and get out.
You are right about FOD hazards (at last!!! some military related acronyms I can understand - had to look up GAIL though)). My favorite FOD hazards are caribou herds.
Now that the USN carrier George Washington is on scene bringing equipment and trained personel to bear, I think the situation will like clockwork in 48 hours.
Latest BNs I have recieved indicated that the main airport at Tacloban, was partially opened late Monday.... but couldn't really take heavy lifters until today (thurday). A few flew over and dropped and even fewer landed, but it seems that its now a 24/7 airport for them.
I also read in an earlier BN that the government services in the area (including police and infrastructure/maintenence) simply ceased to be effective for 48 hours afterwards. Understandably because their families got hit too and they'd have priority with the workers, but thats why you bring in help from outside the region (before hand)... they aren't nearly as distracted.
Quote from: Windigo on November 14, 2013, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: Smuckatelli on November 14, 2013, 09:59:17 AM
Quote from: Windigo on November 13, 2013, 07:30:03 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 13, 2013, 06:47:37 PM
principles may be the same but the ability to act on those principles is not. now stop being such an elitist snob. its unbecoming a socialist like you.
Ask yourself how long it should take to clear an airport runway by hand? How long to restore backup power? Knowing that all airports designated as international or significant regional have to have it? We are not talking local standards but international standards.
Somewhere in the chain of command somone didn't give the order andOr make it happen. Third world means poor, not stupid.
Windy, I've set up a few FARPs in my time.....I am by no means an expert but I was sitting at the beginning of the runway holding on to the GAIL.
Getting a runway clear is not that difficult, run a bulldozer and you're done. The press gives the why aren't planes coming in while the Smucks in life will spend the next few weeks removing FOD from within 500 meters of the 'cleared' runway. Still the runway won't be ready for anything but touch and goes; no off loading of supplies because that will close down the runway unless you have a designated area........at least 500 meters from the runway...which means the Smucks have to clear that fucking area of FOD also.
They would be better to first clear the FOD hazards from around the airfield and then clearing the runway. If they clear the runway first every Smuck in the world will be pressuring them to play LAX. A couple geese brought down an airliner picture what all the post hurricane debris would do to an aircraft.
Aircraft can't run doglegs for an extended period of time, they have to land eventually and until the infrastructure is rebuilt.......we are going to have to stick with helicopters.
Regarding the International Standards; they are not really followed in some of these places. Bangui was/is an International Airport by standard, yet it still took over a week to prepare it to receive shipments for Rwanda back in 1993. It was the jump off point for all supplies going into Rwanda. Massive amounts of supplies were dropped of there and transferred to smaller aircraft.
No typhoon, just WAWA and it still took over a week before the supply aircraft could come in drop supplies and get out.
You are right about FOD hazards (at last!!! some military related acronyms I can understand - had to look up GAIL though)). My favorite FOD hazards are caribou herds.
Now that the USN carrier George Washington is on scene bringing equipment and trained personel to bear, I think the situation will like clockwork in 48 hours.
Latest BNs I have recieved indicated that the main airport at Tacloban, was partially opened late Monday.... but couldn't really take heavy lifters until today (thurday). A few flew over and dropped and even fewer landed, but it seems that its now a 24/7 airport for them.
I also read in an earlier BN that the government services in the area (including police and infrastructure/maintenence) simply ceased to be effective for 48 hours afterwards. Understandably because their families got hit too and they'd have priority with the workers, but thats why you bring in help from outside the region (before hand)... they aren't nearly as distracted.
What is a BN?
briefing note
http://www.reuters.com/video/2013/11/14/uk-s-korea-send-generators-tents-cars-to?videoId=274530582&videoChannel=1 (http://www.reuters.com/video/2013/11/14/uk-s-korea-send-generators-tents-cars-to?videoId=274530582&videoChannel=1)
"...Leyte and Samar are among the poorest provinces. Had more people lived in robust housing instead of shanty towns by the shore, fewer lives would have been lost. Politics is a chief reason why the poor are not better off. In the Philippines a patron-client system of political power is sustained by pork-barrel spending. It breeds endemic corruption and it entrenches powerful families with little incentive to improve the lives of ordinary Filipinos. Mr Aquino has promised to change this, but has more to do. Meanwhile, the central government's writ remains pitifully small.
But economic growth is only half the story. In late 2011 Typhoon Sendong hit a part of the southern Philippines that is not usually in the storms' path. When Typhoon Pablo hit a year later, the town was readier, and fewer lives were lost. Early-warning systems, drills and better zoning all help. The Asian Development Bank advocates "stress tests" for vulnerable places rather like stress tests on financial institutions. The recently elected leader of Tacloban is said to have cared little for such distractions. Let us hope he will now."
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21589883-responding-disaster-essential-so-preparing-next-stress-test (http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21589883-responding-disaster-essential-so-preparing-next-stress-test)
Not that it makes the disaster any less tragic, but there seems to have been a strange amount of hype surrounding this typhoon.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstevengoddard.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F11%2Fai-ce833_philbe_ns_20131114063007.jpg&hash=8e2ee4f9d3e668ab33de1963784cc2b69bce5b79)
it was the sheer size of it. Andrew was just as nasty but it wasnt 500 miles across.
Quote from: LongBlade on November 15, 2013, 01:32:51 PM
Not that it makes the disaster any less tragic, but there seems to have been a strange amount of hype surrounding this typhoon.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstevengoddard.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F11%2Fai-ce833_philbe_ns_20131114063007.jpg&hash=8e2ee4f9d3e668ab33de1963784cc2b69bce5b79)
How many were positioned to drive a storm surge up a bay like a funnel? Lets see a list of storm surge at landfall (especially where there is a city) then we can discuss hype.
The question is, has Windy seen bigger? ;)
Quote from: endfire79 on November 15, 2013, 01:54:19 PM
The question is, has Windy seen bigger? ;)
if you express storms as energy size does matter, not just speed
Quote from: Windigo on November 15, 2013, 01:59:25 PM
Quote from: endfire79 on November 15, 2013, 01:54:19 PM
The question is, has Windy seen bigger? ;)
if you express storms as energy size does matter, not just speed
to easy. ;)
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 15, 2013, 01:44:49 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on November 15, 2013, 01:32:51 PM
Not that it makes the disaster any less tragic, but there seems to have been a strange amount of hype surrounding this typhoon.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstevengoddard.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F11%2Fai-ce833_philbe_ns_20131114063007.jpg&hash=8e2ee4f9d3e668ab33de1963784cc2b69bce5b79)
How many were positioned to drive a storm surge up a bay like a funnel? Lets see a list of storm surge at landfall (especially where there is a city) then we can discuss hype.
I'm not saying this wasn't bad - I am saying that starting with the title to this thread this storm has been one of hype. The storm was bad. Very bad. It was not even close to the Most Powerful Ever To Make Landfall (Anywhere).
Quote from: LongBlade on November 15, 2013, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 15, 2013, 01:44:49 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on November 15, 2013, 01:32:51 PM
Not that it makes the disaster any less tragic, but there seems to have been a strange amount of hype surrounding this typhoon.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstevengoddard.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F11%2Fai-ce833_philbe_ns_20131114063007.jpg&hash=8e2ee4f9d3e668ab33de1963784cc2b69bce5b79)
How many were positioned to drive a storm surge up a bay like a funnel? Lets see a list of storm surge at landfall (especially where there is a city) then we can discuss hype.
I'm not saying this wasn't bad - I am saying that starting with the title to this thread this storm has been one of hype. The storm was bad. Very bad. It was not even close to the Most Powerful Ever To Make Landfall (Anywhere).
Spindoctoring fail. The original artical said it was the most powerful when it made landfall. Now in typical FOxNews fashion, you try to revise the news by saying it was not the most powerful to make landfall. As you well know, most have fallen in strength when they do make landfall. Katarina went from cat 5 out at sea to what, cat 3 at landfall?
let's not make this a Fact Free Fox Finding Freezone. :D
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 15, 2013, 04:29:46 PM
Spindoctoring fail. The original artical said it was the most powerful when it made landfall. Now in typical FOxNews fashion, you try to revise the news by saying it was not the most powerful to make landfall. As you well know, most have fallen in strength when they do make landfall. Katarina went from cat 5 out at sea to what, cat 3 at landfall?
I see your point. Well taken.
However, the fact remains that, while powerful, at landfall, like Katrina it ended up far less powerful than originally thought. And headlines like "most powerful ever" while sensational, can be misleading. Everything from wind speed to tragic cost of human life has consistently turned out to be less than thought.
What made Katrina memorable wasn't the storm (at one time a Cat 5) or its size (it filled the entire Gulf), but the corruption in New Orleans that resulted in a catastrophic failure of multiple levies. Had the levies held Katrina would probably be an afterthought in the litany of Gulf storms. Heian, being a Cat 4 will be remembered. But we've seen worse.
"So far, the U.S. military has moved 174,000 kilograms (190 tons) of supplies and flown nearly 200 sorties. The focus of the aid effort is on providing life-saving aid for those who survived, while the search for missing people is lower in the government's priorities."
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/typhoon-haiyan-for-survivors-search-for-missing-becomes-hellish-routine-1.1546163 (http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/typhoon-haiyan-for-survivors-search-for-missing-becomes-hellish-routine-1.1546163)
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 16, 2013, 03:16:43 PM
"So far, the U.S. military has moved 174,000 kilograms (190 tons) of supplies and flown nearly 200 sorties. The focus of the aid effort is on providing life-saving aid for those who survived, while the search for missing people is lower in the government's priorities."
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/typhoon-haiyan-for-survivors-search-for-missing-becomes-hellish-routine-1.1546163 (http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/typhoon-haiyan-for-survivors-search-for-missing-becomes-hellish-routine-1.1546163)
takes a couple weeks for the mossies and parasites from all the water to get noticed... this ain't over... spent my last few bucks and a few hours helping the neighbours out fundraising... their are filippino and good folk - as an aside the kids are scared of both our little dogs... been trying to show them how to play with them...
Here's another list helping place this storm in context.
http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/deadlyworld.asp
Quote from: LongBlade on November 17, 2013, 02:10:16 PM
Here's another list helping place this storm in context.
http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/deadlyworld.asp (http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/deadlyworld.asp)
Interesting. Most seem to be in the Bay of Bengal. Remind me not to vacation there.
most of those happened before global warming. 8)
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 17, 2013, 03:00:32 PM
most of those happened before global warming. 8)
It's hard to record the future. There is not much doubt to me that the storms of the next 10 years will have a lot more record breakers (in terms of power) than prior decades.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 17, 2013, 03:00:32 PM
most of those happened before global warming. 8)
I noticed that.
The Information Age may (or may not) have something to do with that. Advanced warning can help, as can building regulations.
I'm not sure either can prevent a huge, catastrophic typhoon/cyclone in a 3rd world nation, but the possibility shouldn't be overlooked that it could help.
How many cases of this, which is happening today in the US widwdwest, were there before global warming?
"Hailstones the size of tennis balls have been reported."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24982072 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24982072)
Don't let the dogs out LB!
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 17, 2013, 05:49:11 PM
How many cases of this, which is happening today in the US widwdwest, were there before global warming?
"Hailstones the size of tennis balls have been reported."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24982072 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24982072)
Don't let the dogs out LB!
There are several fallacies about this.
First, and perhaps most importantly, Windy should have beaten me in here to remind you not to mistake weather for climate. I'm sure he was otherwise occupied or he would already have done so ::)
Second, 2013 is notable for several reasons. Due to a lack of global warming this year is likely to mark the year that *every* AGW warming model failed (well over 95% already have failed - we're just waiting on the last two). That is, their predicted increases in temperature will be far higher than the actual (observed) temperature (mind you, that data has tons of error in it, but the error is skewed toward overstating heat, not understating it) such that observed temperatures will be outside the acceptable margin of error of all models. In other words, all the models will have proven they have failed.
2013 is also notable for the absence of severe weather. It has thus far demonstrated to be the second least active year for tornadic activity in the US since 1957. Why 1957? I'm not sure but if Windy makes a dork out of himself by insisting this is significant, I'll look up the reason to demonstrate - once again - that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Again.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstevengoddard.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F10%2Fscreenhunter_1891-oct-26-17-26.jpg&hash=a0b06df0dfd896aef8fb904f9b2f2d7ec8c093dd)
2013 was also notable for the distinct lack of Atlantic hurricane activity. You will recall that weather forecasters started the hurricane season predicting an average to above average year. Instead we got virtually nothing. Let's think about that for a moment: modeling the climate is infinitely more complex than modeling only a portion of climate, the Atlantic hurricane season.
Lastly, this is about AGW. If you really want to go there, I'll splice these last two posts off of this thread and put them in the AGW thread where Windy can demonstrate a singular disinterest in scientific debate. Again.
Up to you.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 17, 2013, 05:49:11 PM
How many cases of this, which is happening today in the US widwdwest, were there before global warming?
"Hailstones the size of tennis balls have been reported."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24982072 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24982072)
Don't let the dogs out LB!
BTW, that storm wasn't theoretical for us.
We had to hang out in the basement this afternoon while a tornado warning rolled over us. Lost some shingles on the roof. Not many, but it'll need repair. The winds and rain were howling pretty good but I never had the sense that a tornado actually formed over us, though clearly something was up otherwise we wouldn't have lost the shingles.
I'm glad you guys are ok.
Quote from: Staggerwing on November 17, 2013, 07:46:22 PM
I'm glad you guys are ok.
Thanks. We go through something like this a few times a year. First time I've lost shingles on a house since I was in high school, but it happens.
Glad all is OK LB. When I heard it was going through Illinois I thought of you just moved to Chicago.
We will find Windy in the spring having scratched out a last note : "Aw crap, I'm frozen to the shitter!"
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 17, 2013, 08:54:09 PM
Glad all is OK LB. When I heard it was going through Illinois I thought of you just moved to Chicago.
I'm way on the outskirts.
QuoteWe will find Windy in the spring having scratched out a last note : "Aw crap, I'm frozen to the shitter!"
Let's hope it's not that bad! :)
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 17, 2013, 02:43:17 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on November 17, 2013, 02:10:16 PM
Here's another list helping place this storm in context.
http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/deadlyworld.asp (http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/deadlyworld.asp)
Interesting. Most seem to be in the Bay of Bengal. Remind me not to vacation there.
when you're dirt poor and 15 of you live in a tin roof shack... its a real bad place to be
Quote from: LongBlade on November 17, 2013, 05:24:15 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on November 17, 2013, 03:00:32 PM
most of those happened before global warming. 8)
I noticed that.
The Information Age may (or may not) have something to do with that. Advanced warning can help, as can building regulations.
I'm not sure either can prevent a huge, catastrophic typhoon/cyclone in a 3rd world nation, but the possibility shouldn't be overlooked that it could help.
don't forget good old media hype.... seems they stopped talking about the typhoon before it made landfall again on the mainland
its official, we have a chart/graph!
Quote from: LongBlade on November 17, 2013, 07:32:31 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 17, 2013, 05:49:11 PM
How many cases of this, which is happening today in the US widwdwest, were there before global warming?
"Hailstones the size of tennis balls have been reported."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24982072 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24982072)
Don't let the dogs out LB!
There are several fallacies about this.
First, and perhaps most importantly, Windy should have beaten me in here to remind you not to mistake weather for climate. I'm sure he was otherwise occupied or he would already have done so ::)
Second, 2013 is notable for several reasons. Due to a lack of global warming this year is likely to mark the year that *every* AGW warming model failed (well over 95% already have failed - we're just waiting on the last two). That is, their predicted increases in temperature will be far higher than the actual (observed) temperature (mind you, that data has tons of error in it, but the error is skewed toward overstating heat, not understating it) such that observed temperatures will be outside the acceptable margin of error of all models. In other words, all the models will have proven they have failed.
2013 is also notable for the absence of severe weather. It has thus far demonstrated to be the second least active year for tornadic activity in the US since 1957. Why 1957? I'm not sure but if Windy makes a dork out of himself by insisting this is significant, I'll look up the reason to demonstrate - once again - that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Again.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstevengoddard.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F10%2Fscreenhunter_1891-oct-26-17-26.jpg&hash=a0b06df0dfd896aef8fb904f9b2f2d7ec8c093dd)
2013 was also notable for the distinct lack of Atlantic hurricane activity. You will recall that weather forecasters started the hurricane season predicting an average to above average year. Instead we got virtually nothing. Let's think about that for a moment: modeling the climate is infinitely more complex than modeling only a portion of climate, the Atlantic hurricane season.
Lastly, this is about AGW. If you really want to go there, I'll splice these last two posts off of this thread and put them in the AGW thread where Windy can demonstrate a singular disinterest in scientific debate. Again.
Up to you.
I am distracted.... starting up on my Masters Studies again and Christmas is coming and SLCG's kids have been visiting and I have been suffering one of those FUCKINJG DAMNED NEVER FUCKING ENDING SINUS INFECTIONS THAT MAKE YOUR FUCKING TEETH FEEL LIKE THEIR GONNA EXPLODE AND YOU WANNA GET SOME .... oops... not cool
anyway... been busy... you?
Good luck with the shingle repair....hopefully the damage is all in one area and you don't have to pullback shingles in too many spots
Quote from: Windigo on November 17, 2013, 10:28:51 PM
I am distracted.... starting up on my Masters Studies again and Christmas is coming and SLCG's kids have been visiting and I have been suffering one of those FUCKINJG DAMNED NEVER FUCKING ENDING SINUS INFECTIONS THAT MAKE YOUR FUCKING TEETH FEEL LIKE THEIR GONNA EXPLODE AND YOU WANNA GET SOME .... oops... not cool
anyway... been busy... you?
sorry, I've never had a dozen and a half ALL CAPS kinda day.
Hope you feel better soon.
Quote from: LongBlade on November 17, 2013, 08:29:45 PM
First time I've lost shingles on a house since I was in high school, but it happens.
order some Detroit pizzas. ;)