Hi folks
I was reading about the DRM used by Battlefront in their Combat mission games. The way i understand it you only have 4 activations when you buy the game + 1 extra each year. If you have an issue you are at the mercy of customer support. What are your thoughts?
What if you change hardware regularly?
Have issues and have to reformat?
HD failures?
OS re-install
Just seems a bit restrictive.
Regards
More than enough for me. How frequent do you change hardware anyway?
I change hardware once in 3 to 5 years.
This has been debated many times here and usually gets interesting when discussed:)
I don't think anyone likes it, but you have people who will tolerate it and enjoy the game, while you have others that refuse to buy the game because of it...
Just comes down to personal choice....
It seems most people that run out of activations just contact support and "usually" they respond in a reasonable time with additional keys if your not abusing it.
Now I am sure we'll see all the incoming flak on this topic:)
Hi Jomni
I was just concerned as i have had issues >:( Some people never have any issue and keep the same PC for a long time. Some don't, take enthusiasts for instance.
Imagine a situation in a years time after a string of hardware "events" and you had used up your activations. It may be possible that you would have to wait a whole year to play :(
Regards
Quote from: Asid on March 01, 2014, 11:04:05 PM
Hi Jomni
I was just concerned as i have had issues >:( Some people never have any issue and keep the same PC for a long time. Some don't, take enthusiasts for instance.
Imagine a situation in a years time after a string of hardware "events" and you had used up your activations. It may be possible that you would have to wait a whole year to play :(
Regards
No, I don't think that would happen...have seen people request help from Battlefront's support and they always seem to work it out, assuming your not abusing it.
I've had to contact customer support to get an additional activation. It really wasn't an issue other than waiting a day for the response.
Hi folks
I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to cause a fight or that i have any axe to grind with BF. Also apologies if this has been discussed before but hopefully there is some new insight as some time has passed.
Regards
Quote from: Asid on March 01, 2014, 11:09:48 PM
Hi folks
I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to cause a fight or that i have any axe to grind with BF. Also apologies if this has been discussed before but hopefully there is some new insight as some time has passed.
Regards
Its just a topic that brings a lot of passionate emotion with it...I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact it is not a great DRM method, but at the end of the day they are not going to change it anytime soon no matter how much we discuss it. Therefore, you either have to accept it and enjoy the game or don't buy the game.
I have tolerated it myself and have not had an issue with it since CMBN was first released (however, I do realize some folks have had issues).
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on March 01, 2014, 11:13:35 PM
Its just a topic that brings a lot of passionate emotion with it.
Nothing wrong with a bit of passion ;)
I had an issue when I upgraded my CPU last year.. There was no 'deactivation' program, so that kind of pissed me off.. Helpdesk did respond quickly..
I upgraded my Video Card this Xmas without any issues...
Definitely a pain.. I prefer Steam to crap getting upset about upgrades.. lol.. but then Steam has NO Customer Service!
Deactivating then reactivating seems a better option to me (seems)
Quote from: Asid on March 01, 2014, 11:09:48 PM
Hi folks
I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to cause a fight or that i have any axe to grind with BF. Also apologies if this has been discussed before but hopefully there is some new insight as some time has passed.
Regards
It's a valid concern and I share them.
I've purchased CMBN and the Commonwealth expansion but I didn't play it over the long-term and only loaded it up on one machine which I don't use much anymore. So I've not had to experience licensing issues with it. That doesn't mean it isn't there.
If I'm ever on the fence about a game, and it has some online activation limit DRM, I don't buy it. There are so many games out there these days, it's impossible to find the time for even the ones I already own. However, I had fallen off the fence after the British expansion was released so I gave it a try (and even more so for SC:WWI).
Thus far I haven't had to bother them to fix anything but that doesn't make me any happier about the situation and I'm still very hesitant to buy anything else with such a DRM scheme from them.
From a personal point of view i just feel that this type of DRM is very restrictive. It's great until something goes wrong and you have to contact support and try and get them (convince them?) that you have done nothing malicious.... :o
For me at least it's definitely something to think about.
Something big DRM wise changed after CMSF, go read Battlefronts Tech Support forums for CMBN & CMFI, for what ever reason their last game, CMFI seems to be the worst (over sensitive, their words, not mine), which tells me, Battlefront has little or no control of the third party DRM imbedded in their product. It's just dumb to have a DRM based on a non-changing PC configuration where any changes to hardware (even plugging/un-plugging a USB device) or software (update video drivers, Windows update) can trigger their DRM, which requires you to open a support ticket making the game unplayable until they respond.
Their demo's even been know to have DRM issues for some, even though they claim their is no DRM in their demos?
Installing/re-stalling their software with modules and updates is also way more complex than it should be because of their DRM. Where installing or updating in the wrong order will leave the game un-playable and require you to contact them again.
I've purchased nothing from them beyond CMSF, and won't buy anything with this level of DRM. It's too bad because I would have purchased more of their games.
Quote from: Asid on March 02, 2014, 04:56:57 AM
From a personal point of view i just feel that this type of DRM is very restrictive. It's great until something goes wrong and you have to contact support and try and get them (convince them?) that you have done nothing malicious.... :o
For me at least it's definitely something to think about.
I don't think you will get any arguments from anyone who feels this DRM scheme is good....I think everyone would prefer something else to be used besides your computer configuration.....but if it comes down to playing the game, each person just needs to decide if they can live with it or not. For some people it could certainly be bad enough for them not to purchase the game and that is perfectly acceptable.
I have purchased all Combat Mission games. In fact, I just pre-ordered Red Thunder last night. I love what they put out and will continue to support them. I wish they would go back to being able to activate and then deactivate the license, but it is what it is. The upgrade process is a bit of a hassle, but if one takes their time, it is not that complicated. I usually reformat my hard drive every six months or so, and have not had any issues with them in regards to licensing, or any re-installing problems.
What special steps do you take in reference to the game installs (the ones w/out uninstal options) before you reformat? Do you send BF Support a heads-up email 1st?
I would prefer it to Stormeagle's DRM. I can't even get http://stormpowered.com to load today :(
Quote from: republic on March 02, 2014, 02:50:20 PM
I would prefer it to Stormeagle's DRM. I can't even get http://stormpowered.com to load today :(
Even StormEagle Studio changed their DRM to Steam like/client based system. They haven't produced anything in years, maybe they went belly up?
I'm not a big fan of Battlefront's DRM, however, I DO like that they are at least transparent about it.
What I don't like is buying a game and then finding out after the fact it has UPlay or Windows Live or some other disaster of a DRM scheme on it.
Quote from: SgtRock on March 02, 2014, 02:54:04 PM
Quote from: republic on March 02, 2014, 02:50:20 PM
I would prefer it to Stormeagle's DRM. I can't even get http://stormpowered.com to load today :(
Even StormEagle Studio changed their DRM to Steam like/client based system. They haven't produced anything in years, maybe they went belly up?
S'true.
Even their limited install DRM was dropped after all the complaints, in favor of a Steam-ish client. It used to be almost exactly like Battlefront's current DRM, including monitoring hardware configs. It probably took them too long to finally get around to changing it because some people had written them off for good by then.
Their current DRM is far more palatable than Battlefronts, though, and I give them credit for actually changing it due to feedback.
Quote from: Nefaro on March 02, 2014, 03:03:50 PM
Their current DRM is far more palatable than Battlefronts, though, and I give them credit for actually changing it due to feedback.
I've had terrible luck with it. I preferred the old scheme to the new one.
Quote from: republic on March 02, 2014, 03:47:28 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on March 02, 2014, 03:03:50 PM
Their current DRM is far more palatable than Battlefronts, though, and I give them credit for actually changing it due to feedback.
I've had terrible luck with it. I preferred the old scheme to the new one.
The initial changeover wasn't smooth because something was jacked up with my original password. They troubleshooted the problem and gave me a new p/w on the same day I contacted them. It's been fine since, so I couldn't complain. *shrug*
Quote from: republic on March 02, 2014, 02:50:20 PM
I would prefer it to Stormeagle's DRM. I can't even get http://stormpowered.com to load today :(
distant guns the russo-japanese war was the single most expensive computer game I have ever bought ($90USD). I did enjoy it while it worked. Haven't been able to play it for many years, all because I failed to release the license prior to having a major computer meltdown. I contacted SE support a couple of times but was not able to jump through all of the hoops they set up for me. Worst DRM experience ever.
Come to think of it, the only other bad experience I've had involved Combat Mission BfN. When I installed Silent Hunter 5 on my Windows 7 PC it broke the DRM system for CM. While SH5 was the real culprit, it just goes to show how these DRM schemes can have a negative impact on paying customers.
Quote from: Rekim on March 02, 2014, 07:19:20 PM
Come to think of it, the only other bad experience I've had involved Combat Mission BfN. When I installed Silent Hunter 5 on my Windows 7 PC it broke the DRM system for CM. While SH5 was the real culprit, it just goes to show how these DRM schemes can have a negative impact on paying customers.
Yeah.. the DRM schemes are just as buggy as the games they're added to.
Silent Hunter 4's "Fade" style DRM was removed because it was getting false positives on legitimate users' computers and screwing up their game while they were playing. It was taken out on the 2nd patch IIRC. You'd think Ubi would've learned but noooo.
These days, if someone wants DRM without all the hassle let them release their games on Steam even if they have to charge a little more! The major problem with embedding some third party DRM in a product, how can you ever be sure what it's really doing or won't interfere with or be interfered with by other software or OS changes?
Question re: Battlefront's DRM --
If I install the game, and then for some reason have to re-install (say something went screwy in the initial installation), does that count as a second "activation"? Or is it like the OOTP drm where you have a couple of installations, but can always deactivate them if you want to install on a different computer - ?
Quote from: sandman2575 on March 03, 2014, 09:49:52 AM
Question re: Battlefront's DRM --
If I install the game, and then for some reason have to re-install (say something went screwy in the initial installation), does that count as a second "activation"? Or is it like the OOTP drm where you have a couple of installations, but can always deactivate them if you want to install on a different computer - ?
Not sure if you can manually deactivate this one. I would expect that it's
supposed to automatically do so as part of the Uninstall but that may not always work at the point it's done.
Quote from: sandman2575 on March 03, 2014, 09:49:52 AM
Question re: Battlefront's DRM --
If I install the game, and then for some reason have to re-install (say something went screwy in the initial installation), does that count as a second "activation"? Or is it like the OOTP drm where you have a couple of installations, but can always deactivate them if you want to install on a different computer - ?
You can re-install as many times as you wish without affecting activation which is a one time event for your computer. (barring major hardware changes) Lots of theoretical 'issues' and misinformation here. In practice, I have not had an issue with this drm and I don't recall any of my pbem partners having any either. The number of activations seem generous to me for how often I perform major upgrades to my PC.
Quote from: Zonso on March 03, 2014, 11:54:34 AM
Lots of theoretical 'issues' and misinformation here. In practice, I have not had an issue with this drm and I don't recall any of my pbem partners having any either. The number of activations seem generous to me for how often I perform major upgrades to my PC.
Is there any published information that makes it clear exactly what is involved?
Regards
Not that I'm aware of, but tbh that would be counter productive with the intent of drm don't you think. :)
Quote from: Zonso on March 03, 2014, 01:10:47 PM
Not that I'm aware of, but tbh that would be counter productive with the intent of drm don't you think. :)
In what way?
It might be worth noting that Battlefront's DRM allows you to install the games on 2 different computers.
You can reinstall on those computers as often as you want. No extra activiations used as long as the hardware is the same.
There is no de-license option anymore in the new system, because the old system caused lots of issues.
Frankly, I hardly believe anyone would get into trouble with this DRM anymore. You have 4 reactivations per year. And you only need them if you change hardware.
A videocard only doesn''t trigger a new need to reactivate, though. So you should be fine, really.
Quote from: Yskonyn on March 03, 2014, 03:00:45 PM
It might be worth noting that Battlefront's DRM allows you to install the games on 2 different computers.
You can reinstall on those computers as often as you want. No extra activiations used as long as the hardware is the same.
There is no de-license option anymore in the new system, because the old system caused lots of issues.
Frankly, I hardly believe anyone would get into trouble with this DRM anymore. You have 4 reactivations per year. And you only need them if you change hardware.
A videocard only doesn''t trigger a new need to reactivate, though. So you should be fine, really.
Thanks for clarifying. I had always assumed it was a hard limit on installations (which is why I've always stayed away -- that's where I draw the DRM line). May have to reconsider my Combat Mission embargo --
Thanks Yskonyn
I like all the BFC games, but a clarification is needed here.
Check out some past history on their tech forums and you'll see a number of people needing a tool they call gsclean. This cleans your registry of the DRM when it fails. It doesn't matter sometimes how many activations are left. Some hardware changes will kill the DRM and you need to contact tech support for the tool. They are pretty good about it, but I have had to wait as long as 48 hours for a response. The first few times it happened they were pretty crabby about it. Now it has happened to so many people that they have realized it is an issue with their DRM...hence someone built the gsclean app.
So what has triggered it on my laptops...
new sound driver (required gsclean)
new video card (required gsclean)
my security USB for work (worked when removed)
adding 4Gb of RAM (required gsclean)
a new high capacity USB drive (worked when removed)
my android phone plugging in (worked when removed)
plus two computer replacements that required new activations
This is for both CMBN and CMFI. It has become too much like work. If you have a computer that you never make changes to, most likely won't care. If you make a lot of changes and plug a lot of stuff into USBs, be careful.
They admitted to me that they are having serious issues with DRM in CM2. In fact, I have had to contact them so many times over activations that we are on a first name basis and I just email them without a ticket.
They have never refused a request for a reset, but I have used up all of my activations. Every hardware change or new computer means I have to beg them for a new activation. It does get old quickly.
I am not some BFC basher. I really like CM. But the DRM has periodically made me stop playing out of frustration. You can read between the lines of Steve's posts about it and see that he is not happy. But I think they are too far into it to back out now.
Quote from: RyanE on March 03, 2014, 05:29:37 PM
In fact, I have had to contact them so many times over activations that we are on a first name basis and I just email them without a ticket.
They have never refused a request for a reset, but I have used up all of my activations. Every hardware change or new computer means I have to beg them for a new activation. It does get old quickly.
I am not some BFC basher. I really like CM. But the DRM has periodically made me stop playing out of frustration. You can read between the lines of Steve's posts about it and see that he is not happy. But I think they are too far into it to back out now.
This is the bit that that makes me uncomfortable "
I have to beg them for a new activation."
If i have to beg for it then i should get it for free!
Quote from: Asid on March 03, 2014, 06:12:01 PM
Quote from: RyanE on March 03, 2014, 05:29:37 PM
In fact, I have had to contact them so many times over activations that we are on a first name basis and I just email them without a ticket.
They have never refused a request for a reset, but I have used up all of my activations. Every hardware change or new computer means I have to beg them for a new activation. It does get old quickly.
I am not some BFC basher. I really like CM. But the DRM has periodically made me stop playing out of frustration. You can read between the lines of Steve's posts about it and see that he is not happy. But I think they are too far into it to back out now.
This is the bit that that makes me uncomfortable " I have to beg them for a new activation."
If i have to beg for it then i should get it for free!
Not sure if he really had to literally beg, just thinking he meant had to take the extra time to request it which is less than ideal.....
I have been through a couple computer changes and some upgrades such as video cards and have yet had to ask for more activations....I understand it might be more sensitive for others and minor changes have caused an activation to be used...but I guess I have never seen anyone say that BF did not work with them to get the activation they needed...sure it might take a little time, but in reality how often does this really happen to a single person? I am sure there will always be exceptions just like any DRM out there...
Quote from: Zonso on March 03, 2014, 11:54:34 AM
You can re-install as many times as you wish without affecting activation which is a one time event for your computer. (barring major hardware changes) Lots of theoretical 'issues' and misinformation here. In practice, I have not had an issue with this drm and I don't recall any of my pbem partners having any either. The number of activations seem generous to me for how often I perform major upgrades to my PC.
You may think it is mostly theoretical issues and misinformation but, as RyanE and tech support issues have shown, there can be serious problems with false positives. From what I've seen reported, this isn't uncommon for such types of DRM.
Because you haven't had to deal with it is no justification to sweep it under the rug and pretend it's not there or even accuse such people of misinformation, intentional or otherwise.
Unfortunately false positives have had an initial tendency for publishers using such things to suspect that anyone having such issues may well be attempting to pirate their software and become rather testy with those requesting resets. At first, they tend to sound accusatory and get defensive about the situation. As RyanE mentioned, they eventually figure out that their DRM is buggy and somewhat unreliable so they become easier to deal with in this regard. I wonder why they even bother using it at that point, as it's just creating more work on their end, besides pissing some of their customers off.
I know that the DRM is there to prevent unauthorised use but when it interferes with a legitimate install then that's a problem.
I don't mean that you have to literally beg.
Why should you have to be made to feel like, at worst, a criminal and at best an idiot?
I forgot one major issue...I upgraded from Win 8.0 to 8.1 and that required a request for new activation and gsclean. I didn't literally mean beg. But I did have to ask.
I think I also had the issue with a BIOS upgrade, but I am little fuzzy on it.
I am not an opponent of DRM (if it is simple). I am against developers not understanding what they putting in their products and then dismissing the issues their customers have with the DRM.
Speak of the devil...this came into the tech forum at BFC as I was writing this. I knew I had an issue with the BIOS update...
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113918
Just to be complete to my last post...here is a thread with BFC mentioning the Win 8.1 DRM issue.
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113446
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi287.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll122%2Fpha57%2Fpicard-sigh.jpg&hash=b465c8300e8393c03aebb3754bfaecb59025475f)
Funny how Battlefront always blames (MS, Video Drivers, etc) for their DRM problems! It's never their DRM at fault, you upgraded your PC that's your problem not our DRM ::)
Makes you wonder will any Battlefront work with the next Windows version? Is their DRM one patch away from killing off all their entire product line!
The only entities that come out ahead on DRM are those that sell the DRM.
Quote from: RyanE on March 04, 2014, 02:48:17 PM
Just to be complete to my last post...here is a thread with BFC mentioning the Win 8.1 DRM issue.
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113446
I dont see where this thread is an example.
The question is asked wether the user is able to enter the main menu, but is not answered. If he can enter the main menu (as assumed in the thread) then this is not a DRM issue at all.
This is part of the reason why these discussions can get so heated if people blame DRM for other issues.
If you read the entire thread, the BFC support guy, schullencrat or something like that, states in the second post they typically have license issues in Win 8.o to 8.1 upgrades. It not an example as much as an admission.
Sorry I didn't realize I wasn't specific enough
Quote from: Greybriar on March 05, 2014, 12:59:36 AM
The only entities that come out ahead on DRM are those that sell the DRM.
Yup.
Unfortunately, they have numerous publishers fooled into believing they absolutely
need it. ::)
The funny thing is the thread I posted is worse than an example. It shows the DRM issue has happened enough to cause BFC to casually admit the DRM is "over-functioning".
I am not dead set against DRM. I am against poorly designed and executed DRM and a company unwilling to fix it.
Quote from: RyanE on March 05, 2014, 07:51:13 AM
I am not dead set against DRM. I am against poorly designed and executed DRM and a company unwilling to fix it.
Definitely agree. Companies like Battlefront are their own best judges of whether the cost of having 'over functioning' DRM is worth it, in terms of being effective in cutting down on piracy. But no question that these types of stories keep me away. I wonder how many potential customers they lose by having DRM that, by all accounts, steps over the line of what is acceptable. I'm one of the them, anyway.
Quote from: sandman2575 on March 05, 2014, 10:10:05 AM
Definitely agree. Companies like Battlefront are their own best judges of whether the cost of having 'over functioning' DRM is worth it, in terms of being effective in cutting down on piracy. But no question that these types of stories keep me away. I wonder how many potential customers they lose by having DRM that, by all accounts, steps over the line of what is acceptable.
Quite a few i bet.
One has to wonder, if they are one MS patch or OS version away from all of their products to stop working, if they have no control of it!
Let's just hope they eliminate it or find a way to tone it down (way down), so it's not an issue with CMRT!
Quote from: RyanE on March 05, 2014, 07:51:13 AM
The funny thing is the thread I posted is worse than an example. It shows the DRM issue has happened enough to cause BFC to casually admit the DRM is "over-functioning".
I am not dead set against DRM. I am against poorly designed and executed DRM and a company unwilling to fix it.
LOL @ "over-functioning".
Sounds like misdirectional politician-speak.
Quote from: Nefaro on March 03, 2014, 08:28:22 PM
You may think it is mostly theoretical issues and misinformation but, as RyanE and tech support issues have shown, there can be serious problems with false positives. From what I've seen reported, this isn't uncommon for such types of DRM.
Because you haven't had to deal with it is no justification to sweep it under the rug and pretend it's not there or even accuse such people of misinformation, intentional or otherwise.
Unfortunately false positives have had an initial tendency for publishers using such things to suspect that anyone having such issues may well be attempting to pirate their software and become rather testy with those requesting resets. At first, they tend to sound accusatory and get defensive about the situation. As RyanE mentioned, they eventually figure out that their DRM is buggy and somewhat unreliable so they become easier to deal with in this regard. I wonder why they even bother using it at that point, as it's just creating more work on their end, besides pissing some of their customers off.
Well I hate to break it to you, but the issues listed above are the exception, exceptional imo, not the norm. For what it's worth, I and others have done many of those same things with no issues whatsoever. As for reported problems, I surely do not see drm issues dominating the support forum as you allude to, in fact they are in the definite minority. Your anti drm or anti BFC issues blind you to the fact that most users have no problems with this drm which is mostly benign, or playing the game because of it, and likely understand certain realities regarding why a developer chooses to implement it. <shrug> In the end, the drm never enters the equation for me period. If it does for you or others, then great, move on; but this isn't what this is about anymore is it?
Quote from: Zonso on March 05, 2014, 02:44:49 PM
In the end, the drm never enters the equation for me period. If it does for you or others, then great, move on; but this isn't what this is about anymore is it?
For me it is only about understanding the DRM and not about grinding teeth... or an axe even ...
If I was the only one having an issue, I would say it is something I am doing, but in their forum and my private conversations, they have been pretty open about these issues not being rare.
In ten minutes I was able to show two threads still on page 1 of the tech forum. AT one time there were constantly half a dozen or so requests for gsclean on the first page.
I see no point in saying it doesn't happen to one individual. I have shown it is not just me, it has happened to other people, and BFC has admitted it and stated they are not happy with the DRM they are using.
Just to make sure, I did a quick search on "gsclean" on BFC. for all of CM2 titles (CMBN and CNFI) there were 11 threads since October where gsclean was the solution. In a couple, there were multiple people with issues. Since June there were about 24 threads. I know I have never posted. I only use the help desk. I assume a lot of other people have the same approach.
So while its not common, there is a pretty good chance if you tinker on your computer a lot, you will trip the DRM. And this is only where gsclean is needed. You basically have 4-5 activations before you get to that point in most cases.
And that also doen't count the number of activations used up through new laptops. I get a new laptop at least once a year. That uses up that extra one you get right away.
Quote from: Zonso on March 05, 2014, 02:44:49 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on March 03, 2014, 08:28:22 PM
You may think it is mostly theoretical issues and misinformation but, as RyanE and tech support issues have shown, there can be serious problems with false positives. From what I've seen reported, this isn't uncommon for such types of DRM.
Because you haven't had to deal with it is no justification to sweep it under the rug and pretend it's not there or even accuse such people of misinformation, intentional or otherwise.
Unfortunately false positives have had an initial tendency for publishers using such things to suspect that anyone having such issues may well be attempting to pirate their software and become rather testy with those requesting resets. At first, they tend to sound accusatory and get defensive about the situation. As RyanE mentioned, they eventually figure out that their DRM is buggy and somewhat unreliable so they become easier to deal with in this regard. I wonder why they even bother using it at that point, as it's just creating more work on their end, besides pissing some of their customers off.
Well I hate to break it to you, but the issues listed above are the exception, exceptional imo, not the norm. For what it's worth, I and others have done many of those same things with no issues whatsoever. As for reported problems, I surely do not see drm issues dominating the support forum as you allude to, in fact they are in the definite minority. Your anti drm or anti BFC issues blind you to the fact that most users have no problems with this drm which is mostly benign, or playing the game because of it, and likely understand certain realities regarding why a developer chooses to implement it. <shrug> In the end, the drm never enters the equation for me period. If it does for you or others, then great, move on; but this isn't what this is about anymore is it?
::)
This is absolutely about DRM. I complain about this kind regularly, as many can attest, and that has been the topic of this thread until you came with some vague accusation.
Then there's always the "You know us Grogheads we like to play our 'old games'" What happens if BF disappears or goes under, you're screwed..
Happened to me with my copy of Civ IV from Direct 2 Drive.. they said "Oh, you can download it now and you'll have it for later".. Well, later, I was going to rebuild my machine.. tried to reinstall Civ IV and it went to an activation server that didn't exist anymore... really pissed me off.. went and bought a 'third' copy on Steam ...
Now that's a great game bought it Three times.. DVD.. Direct 2 Drive then Steam..
I have kind of gotten lost in this thread.....
I don't think anyone would say the current form of DRM is good or desirable in Battlefront's games....think that likely is a universal opinion. Not sure I have seen anyone debate it is a good DRM system and they like it over other DRM systems.
-so-
not sure what this accomplishes.....if you want to play these games, you have to accept it.....if you can't accept it, then you can't play the games....seems pretty straightforward to me.
Dear grogs
I started this thread in order to get some real feedback about Battlefronts DRM and not argue the pro's and con's of DRM or protection in general.
There seems to be some confusion as to what you can and cannot do with installs, activations, upgrades,... Etc.
Please do not use this thread for any personal attacks or Battlefront bashing. Stick to the topic about their DRM please
Regards
We told you so! ;)
Just a small note about 'What happens when BFC go under?'
I have seen posts on more than one occasion by the devs that if it comes that far, people will get a solution. Perhaps a drm free exe.
I wouldn't worry about that part. You are missing out on a great series of games NOW if you're afraid for what might happen LATER.
Besides , are you likely playing the game still after years with all this gaming ADD around here? ;) Just sayin'
Quote from: Asid on March 05, 2014, 11:15:26 PM
Dear grogs
I started this thread in order to get some real feedback about Battlefronts DRM and not argue the pro's and con's of DRM or protection in general.
There seems to be some confusion as to what you can and cannot do with installs, activations, upgrades,... Etc.
Please do not use this thread for any personal attacks or Battlefront bashing. Stick to the topic about their DRM please
Regards
with all due respect - the best place youre going to get the correct answers to those questions are at the battlefront forums
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 06, 2014, 02:55:22 AM
with all due respect - the best place youre going to get the correct answers to those questions are at the battlefront forums
I understand but i thought i might get an unbiased opinion/view here.
Quote from: Asid on March 06, 2014, 03:13:51 AM
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 06, 2014, 02:55:22 AM
with all due respect - the best place youre going to get the correct answers to those questions are at the battlefront forums
I understand but i thought i might get an unbiased opinion/view here.
Ironically the BF forums might be the most unbiased ones you'll find, plus there are people who, you know, actually know what they're talking about, as opposed to opinionated speculation
This discussion will always dissolve into ' that didn't happen to me so it's your problem' or ' it happens to everyone and BF are wankers' and the only place that doesn't happen us BF where people are paid to help you
The BFC tech forums are some of the best around. No flame wars and the tech support guy is pretty quick to respond.
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 06, 2014, 03:22:55 AM
....Ironically the BF forums might be the most unbiased ones you'll find, plus there are people who, you know, actually know what they're talking about, as opposed to opinionated speculation....
LOL There's nothing like telling it like it is! ;D
Quote from: Asid on March 06, 2014, 03:13:51 AM
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 06, 2014, 02:55:22 AM
with all due respect - the best place youre going to get the correct answers to those questions are at the battlefront forums
I understand but i thought i might get an unbiased opinion/view here.
LOL...unbiased opinion is an oxymoron. That's what makes them opinions, they are biased. Battlefront threads always bring out the deepest of gamer passions, both pro and con.
Quote from: Rayfer on March 06, 2014, 03:59:05 PM
Quote from: Asid on March 06, 2014, 03:13:51 AM
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 06, 2014, 02:55:22 AM
with all due respect - the best place youre going to get the correct answers to those questions are at the battlefront forums
I understand but i thought i might get an unbiased opinion/view here.
LOL...unbiased opinion is an oxymoron. That's what makes them opinions, they are biased. Battlefront threads always bring out the deepest of gamer passions, both pro and con.
I tried to say that at the start about the passion and debate that would happen:)
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on March 06, 2014, 06:37:54 PM
I tried to say that at the start about the passion and debate that would happen:)
But surely a forum is for discussion??????
Quote from: Asid on March 06, 2014, 06:53:03 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on March 06, 2014, 06:37:54 PM
I tried to say that at the start about the passion and debate that would happen:)
But surely a forum is for discussion??????
In my opinion and only my opinion, a topic that has been beat to death in the past with the same outcome as predicted....there is no right answer. As I have said many times, nobody is going to debate whether the DRM is good or bad, it is pretty much a given it stinks. Therefore, in my opinion does not leave much to discuss. You either live with it and play the game or you don't live with it and don't play the game.
Not sure what else to discuss....
Quote from: Asid on March 05, 2014, 11:15:26 PM
There seems to be some confusion as to what you can and cannot do with installs, activations, upgrades,... Etc.
That's not really a topic for discussion, I think, is a topic for writing an e-mail to their helpdesk like this:
QuoteDear Battlefront.com,
I am interested in purchasing your one or more of your products, but I'm confused regarding
the nature of the DRM software you use, and what I can and cannot do with installs, activations,
upgrades, known issues, etc.
I'd appreciate some pointers to relevant sites that spell out clearly the above.
Looking forward to hearing from you,
<Your real name here>
At least, that's what I'd have done if I were you :)
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on March 02, 2014, 11:44:08 AM
Quote from: Asid on March 02, 2014, 04:56:57 AM
From a personal point of view i just feel that this type of DRM is very restrictive. It's great until something goes wrong and you have to contact support and try and get them (convince them?) that you have done nothing malicious.... :o
For me at least it's definitely something to think about.
I don't think you will get any arguments from anyone who feels this DRM scheme is good....I think everyone would prefer something else to be used besides your computer configuration.....but if it comes down to playing the game, each person just needs to decide if they can live with it or not. For some people it could certainly be bad enough for them not to purchase the game and that is perfectly acceptable.
FWIW I have screwed up installations in the past, uninstalled, reinstalled etc. At one point I did run out of activations on the Commonwelath bundle IIRC. I contacted BF Support, and I got my activations reset that same working day, and was playing later on that same day. Excellent support service as far as I am concerned. Maybe I was lucky, maybe not? I hate DRM with a passion, but they did make it a painless experience for me, so I can live with it. I'll give a huge +1 to everything Grim Reaper has said!
Quote from: Boggit on March 06, 2014, 10:12:11 PM
FWIW I have screwed up installations in the past, uninstalled, reinstalled etc. At one point I did run out of activations on the Commonwelath bundle IIRC. I contacted BF Support, and I got my activations reset that same working day, and was playing later on that same day. Excellent support service as far as I am concerned. Maybe I was lucky, maybe not? I hate DRM with a passion, but they did make it a painless experience for me, so I can live with it. I'll give a huge +1 to everything Grim Reaper has said!
Thanks Boggit. This is the kind of info that i'm looking for :)
Coincidentally, this showed up on grogheads today...
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=9480.0
2nd post. SC also uses the BFC DRM system.
Never really understood all this DRM aversion.
Its there ... that's their decision. The game costs 50 bucks - which I could lose in the street one day and forget I had the next - and yet people deny themselves what in my opinion is the best wargame ever produced because of some fear of what may happen - which in ten years playing their games - and dealing with the DRM - never has to me.
Just doesn't make any sense.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 07, 2014, 04:46:00 PM
Never really understood all this DRM aversion.
Its there ... that's their decision. The game costs 50 bucks - which I could lose in the street one day and forget I had the next - and yet people deny themselves what in my opinion is the best wargame ever produced because of some fear of what may happen - which in ten years playing their games - and dealing with the DRM - never has to me.
Just doesn't make any sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0oEw0IMLXI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0oEw0IMLXI)
Quote from: RyanE on March 07, 2014, 03:54:47 PM
Coincidentally, this showed up on grogheads today...
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=9480.0
2nd post. SC also uses the BFC DRM system.
Which makes sense since it is a BFC distributed game....
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on March 07, 2014, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 07, 2014, 04:46:00 PM
Never really understood all this DRM aversion.
Its there ... that's their decision. The game costs 50 bucks - which I could lose in the street one day and forget I had the next - and yet people deny themselves what in my opinion is the best wargame ever produced because of some fear of what may happen - which in ten years playing their games - and dealing with the DRM - never has to me.
Just doesn't make any sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0oEw0IMLXI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0oEw0IMLXI)
Speaking of not making any sense..... :o
;D
Goofin off.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 07, 2014, 04:46:00 PM
Never really understood all this DRM aversion.
Its there ... that's their decision. The game costs 50 bucks - which I could lose in the street one day and forget I had the next - and yet people deny themselves what in my opinion is the best wargame ever produced because of some fear of what may happen - which in ten years playing their games - and dealing with the DRM - never has to me.
Just doesn't make any sense.
Of course! Because such DRM is just fine as-is, right? Couldn't ask for anything else?
I don't think he should've even had to wait for permission to re-install his game. At all.
DRM is a pain but its like taxes. You go into it knowing you are going to squeal like a pig just like when you buy a two year cell phone contracts, get married, pay full airfares for kids, $95/day pass to Disney world when half the rides are out of commission, $10 hotdogs at Fenway etc. (insert your own WTF am I paying for this experience in here)
The reason companies do this is because they can and as long as consumers keep buying it at that rate under these conditions they are right.
It doesnt matter what WE the consumer think unless we vote with our wallets. Battlefront believes that this is a viable (note not the only or best answer) to protecting their digital IP and that is their capitalistic right to impose their solution on us.
I have bought their games had the few minor problems (like 90% of the people have had) and had it always solved satisfactorily and promptly by Battlefront. The market needs of the many outweigh the righteous anger of the few. At this point if I get burned by DRM it wont be because I was not aware that it couldn't happen its because I made a decision that it was probably unlikely to happen to me.
Con
Quote from: Nefaro on March 07, 2014, 09:01:17 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 07, 2014, 04:46:00 PM
Never really understood all this DRM aversion.
Its there ... that's their decision. The game costs 50 bucks - which I could lose in the street one day and forget I had the next - and yet people deny themselves what in my opinion is the best wargame ever produced because of some fear of what may happen - which in ten years playing their games - and dealing with the DRM - never has to me.
Just doesn't make any sense.
Of course! Because such DRM is just fine as-is, right? Couldn't ask for anything else?
I don't think he should've even had to wait for permission to re-install his game. At all.
Well - if he bothered to read the licence agreement when he bought the game then yes - I would have trouble understanding what he was bitching about - because you would understand its not actually his game.
Now, you may not like the licence agreement - and if you don't, you don't have to buy the game.
Buying from them knowing that and then bitching about it is like buying a car and then complaining to the manufacturer you have to put petrol in it.
We are adults and therefore can reasonably be expected to make considered choices - and its battlefronts game and hard work - so they can add whatever DRM they see fit as far as I am concerned.
Leaving all the free will aside - most everyone complaining here about it are complaining are complaining about things that might happen - and most don't even own a game - and if you actually read anything about people who have had a problem with the DRM - all have nothing but praise for the speed and efficacy it was dealt with.
.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 08, 2014, 01:29:06 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on March 07, 2014, 09:01:17 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 07, 2014, 04:46:00 PM
Never really understood all this DRM aversion.
Its there ... that's their decision. The game costs 50 bucks - which I could lose in the street one day and forget I had the next - and yet people deny themselves what in my opinion is the best wargame ever produced because of some fear of what may happen - which in ten years playing their games - and dealing with the DRM - never has to me.
Just doesn't make any sense.
Of course! Because such DRM is just fine as-is, right? Couldn't ask for anything else?
I don't think he should've even had to wait for permission to re-install his game. At all.
Well - if he bothered to read the licence agreement when he bought the game then yes - I would have trouble understanding what he was bitching about - because you would understand its not actually his game.
Now, you may not like the licence agreement - and if you don't, you don't have to buy the game.
Buying from them knowing that and then bitching about it is like buying a car and then complaining to the manufacturer you have to put petrol in it.
We are adults and therefore can reasonably be expected to make considered choices - and its battlefronts game and hard work - so they can add whatever DRM they see fit as far as I am concerned.
Leaving all the free will aside - most everyone complaining here about it are complaining are complaining about things that might happen - and most don't even own a game - and if you actually read anything about people who have had a problem with the DRM - all have nothing but praise for the speed and efficacy it was dealt with.
Tell me of one store or website that lets you read the license agreement before purchase.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 08, 2014, 01:29:06 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on March 07, 2014, 09:01:17 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 07, 2014, 04:46:00 PM
Never really understood all this DRM aversion.
Its there ... that's their decision. The game costs 50 bucks - which I could lose in the street one day and forget I had the next - and yet people deny themselves what in my opinion is the best wargame ever produced because of some fear of what may happen - which in ten years playing their games - and dealing with the DRM - never has to me.
Just doesn't make any sense.
Of course! Because such DRM is just fine as-is, right? Couldn't ask for anything else?
I don't think he should've even had to wait for permission to re-install his game. At all.
Well - if he bothered to read the licence agreement when he bought the game then yes - I would have trouble understanding what he was bitching about - because you would understand its not actually his game.
Now, you may not like the licence agreement - and if you don't, you don't have to buy the game.
Buying from them knowing that and then bitching about it is like buying a car and then complaining to the manufacturer you have to put petrol in it.
We are adults and therefore can reasonably be expected to make considered choices - and its battlefronts game and hard work - so they can add whatever DRM they see fit as far as I am concerned.
Leaving all the free will aside - most everyone complaining here about it are complaining are complaining about things that might happen - and most don't even own a game - and if you actually read anything about people who have had a problem with the DRM - all have nothing but praise for the speed and efficacy it was dealt with.
Long story short. I bought a game requiring internet activation. The company went belly up. I can no longer play a game I am legally licensed to use.
There are plenty of DRM free games out there. Why am I going to bother with it?
"Tell me of one store or website that lets you read the license agreement before purchase."
That's reminds me of Microsoft when they use to sell their software in big boxes in stores, the license agreement was in the box but you agreeded to the license agreement by just opening the box. ???
Quote from: DoctorQuest on March 08, 2014, 02:29:40 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 08, 2014, 01:29:06 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on March 07, 2014, 09:01:17 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 07, 2014, 04:46:00 PM
Never really understood all this DRM aversion.
Its there ... that's their decision. The game costs 50 bucks - which I could lose in the street one day and forget I had the next - and yet people deny themselves what in my opinion is the best wargame ever produced because of some fear of what may happen - which in ten years playing their games - and dealing with the DRM - never has to me.
Just doesn't make any sense.
Of course! Because such DRM is just fine as-is, right? Couldn't ask for anything else?
I don't think he should've even had to wait for permission to re-install his game. At all.
Well - if he bothered to read the licence agreement when he bought the game then yes - I would have trouble understanding what he was bitching about - because you would understand its not actually his game.
Now, you may not like the licence agreement - and if you don't, you don't have to buy the game.
Buying from them knowing that and then bitching about it is like buying a car and then complaining to the manufacturer you have to put petrol in it.
We are adults and therefore can reasonably be expected to make considered choices - and its battlefronts game and hard work - so they can add whatever DRM they see fit as far as I am concerned.
Leaving all the free will aside - most everyone complaining here about it are complaining are complaining about things that might happen - and most don't even own a game - and if you actually read anything about people who have had a problem with the DRM - all have nothing but praise for the speed and efficacy it was dealt with.
Long story short. I bought a game requiring internet activation. The company went belly up. I can no longer play a game I am legally licensed to use.
There are plenty of DRM free games out there. Why am I going to bother with it?
You make a very good point, which is one reason why I'm with you for hating DRM which can screw up games you have paid for (licenced use that is ;)).
But I have asked myself, what if that did happen, would companies like JTS, or Battlefront really want to see their legitimate customers screwed over as a result? I don't see it happening that way. When I mentioned this a long time ago to Rich Hamilton during the HPS/JTS split, he suggested that if the worst happened there were several people around who would be able to post an update/patch for legitimate users to circumvent any problems with DRM. I haven't asked Battlefront, but I wouldn't be surprised if they would do something similar. In my experience the people running both companies value their customers. I really doubt that in the event of bankrupty they are the sort of people who would leave legit customers deeply in the sh1t regarding the DRM put there ostensibly to protect their business. (I say ostensibly since I'm not at all convinced of DRM's ability to protect against pirates cracking games, but don't get me started on that....... ::))
That said the two companies I mention are small and Indie. They are both a lot more personal with their games, and the customer base. I don't necessarily see one of the large, corporate studios giving a flying f*?k about their customers, but I think these guys really do, and would do whatever they could in the circumstances to help the community. I think that's one huge difference between the Indie's and the Corporates.
It always depends how they go out of business. If they voluntarily shut down, I would imagine most developers would kill the DRM through a patch. If they shut down through the court systems and seek bankruptcy protection or acquisition, they most likely would not be legally allowed to kill the DRM. The DRM controlled software would most likely be viewed as a potential asset by the courts and creditors.
I just want to know why the no longer have a deactivate program.. You shouldn't have to be at their mercy when upgrading hardware. Again, their tech support responds really quickly. But if it's one of those times, the wife is out.. I've just upgraded my hardware and in the mood to check it out.. I shouldn't even have to wait a day.. They should have the deactivate program in the program group.. even Scourge with their one machine at a time pain in the as with Gettysburg, let you deactivate (Thank God they went to Matrix and are now DRM free).
Quote from: Tuna on March 09, 2014, 01:13:33 PM
I just want to know why the no longer have a deactivate program.. You shouldn't have to be at their mercy when upgrading hardware. Again, their tech support responds really quickly. But if it's one of those times, the wife is out.. I've just upgraded my hardware and in the mood to check it out.. I shouldn't even have to wait a day.. They should have the deactivate program in the program group.. even Scourge with their one machine at a time pain in the as with Gettysburg, let you deactivate (Thank God they went to Matrix and are now DRM free).
I finally took the plunge on the Italian campaign games after swearing I wouldn't. Then I bravely blundered onto the website and ordered the Mac version instead of the Windows. The tech support was good about it. I didn't expect 24-hour operators standing by, but for someone who brought about his own misfortune by not reading the website properly, I was treated quite well. They switched my download for the correct one without any fuss. I believe I had to wait for the next business day. But as someone who grew up before the information age and can still remember when stores were closed on Sunday out of respect for the Sabbath, it was not a huge imposition. BFC does have a very efficient tech support line. All one needs in return is a bit of patience.
Clearly someone from Battlefront has hacked Michael's account. :P
Quote from: RyanE on March 09, 2014, 12:45:23 PM
It always depends how they go out of business. If they voluntarily shut down, I would imagine most developers would kill the DRM through a patch. If they shut down through the court systems and seek bankruptcy protection or acquisition, they most likely would not be legally allowed to kill the DRM. The DRM controlled software would most likely be viewed as a potential asset by the courts and creditors.
Again. Why should I even bother? There is no game on the market that is worth this hassle. This is not an OS or something I NEED. This is playtime. I have little enough of that as it is. I am not going to waste it on any form of DRM.
Quote from: DoctorQuest on March 09, 2014, 09:25:43 PM
Quote from: RyanE on March 09, 2014, 12:45:23 PM
It always depends how they go out of business. If they voluntarily shut down, I would imagine most developers would kill the DRM through a patch. If they shut down through the court systems and seek bankruptcy protection or acquisition, they most likely would not be legally allowed to kill the DRM. The DRM controlled software would most likely be viewed as a potential asset by the courts and creditors.
Again. Why should I even bother? There is no game on the market that is worth this hassle. This is not an OS or something I NEED. This is playtime. I have little enough of that as it is. I am not going to waste it on any form of DRM.
+1
And the merry go 'round continues to spin interminably, with everyone tossing out the same tired arguments because THIS TIME it'll WORK and the Internetz will be won.
These discussions are so fruitful.
Never ending, circular arguments are what make the interwebs run.
I originally made the thread to discuss real world experience with BF DRM and not about DRM in general. I did not intend for this to go any other way but i suppose it is inevitable.
Regards
This has been remarkably on-topic and civil for a DRM thread.
Quote from: Asid on March 10, 2014, 03:30:37 PM
I originally made the thread to discuss real world experience with BF DRM and not about DRM in general. I did not intend for this to go any other way but i suppose it is inevitable.
Regards
Which was kind of my point - the real world experience is just fine - and should in no way stop you from buying their games. Of course if you want to listen to the imagined horror stories of others then don't buy the game or of course if you want to deny yourself the experience because of some deeply held principle around DRM (which I personally find a strange thing to hold a deeply held principal about) - then don't buy the game. All I can say is that you might walk under a bus tomorrow and you will be unable to play the game just as much as if BF went out of business and they didn't release a patch.
Despite what someone said earlier - even if you are the most anti DRM person around - this IS the one game worth dropping your objection for.
Quote from: DoctorQuest on March 09, 2014, 09:25:43 PM
Quote from: RyanE on March 09, 2014, 12:45:23 PM
It always depends how they go out of business. If they voluntarily shut down, I would imagine most developers would kill the DRM through a patch. If they shut down through the court systems and seek bankruptcy protection or acquisition, they most likely would not be legally allowed to kill the DRM. The DRM controlled software would most likely be viewed as a potential asset by the courts and creditors.
Again. Why should I even bother? There is no game on the market that is worth this hassle. This is not an OS or something I NEED. This is playtime. I have little enough of that as it is. I am not going to waste it on any form of DRM.
And that - in my view - is precisely where you are wrong.
Point one - I have all their games - and there is no hassle. Despite peoples attempt to portray their DRM system as a never ending hell of constant problems - that's just not the case - however many times they try to say it is.
Point two - Even if you hate it for whatever reason - this game is worth it (though "worth it" is still a completely bogus description)
Sure, sure. This thread and similar threads elsewhere exist because of the hassle-free DRM. Your opinion of worth is just that, an opinion. Spend your dollars however you want and the rest of us will reserve the right to do likewise.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 10, 2014, 03:59:30 PM
Despite what someone said earlier - even if you are the most anti DRM person around - this IS the one game worth dropping your objection for.
These kinds of silly statements do nothing to advance the discussion. You can buy any game ever made one day and if the company goes out of business the next and you are unable to access your game the day after, you have wasted your money.
Everything is subjective, so telling someone what they should like is also equally pointless.
More to the point, I think, would be a company's track record of releasing information to the public. It may be worth noting that when Combat Mission: Campaigns was declared a no-go, BFC released the source code to the fan base. The point being that if the company was contemplating an end to their business for whatever reason, there is always a chance that they would eliminate the DRM requirement before doing so. I don't know how likely it is, but I've seen it discussed in the past. At any rate, there is nothing to suggest it would
never happen, and the CM:C source code release may be a positive sign. I believe there have been discussions on that theme at BFC in the past though as someone who has had no problems with their DRM, I never really paid attention.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 10, 2014, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Asid on March 10, 2014, 03:30:37 PM
I originally made the thread to discuss real world experience with BF DRM and not about DRM in general. I did not intend for this to go any other way but i suppose it is inevitable.
Regards
Which was kind of my point - the real world experience is just fine - and should in no way stop you from buying their games. Of course if you want to listen to the imagined horror stories of others then don't buy the game or of course if you want to deny yourself the experience because of some deeply held principle around DRM (which I personally find a strange thing to hold a deeply held principal about) - then don't buy the game. All I can say is that you might walk under a bus tomorrow and you will be unable to play the game just as much as if BF went out of business and they didn't release a patch.
Despite what someone said earlier - even if you are the most anti DRM person around - this IS the one game worth dropping your objection for.
My posts are not imagined. I still like CM and play it, but the OP asked about experiences with BFC DRM. It only takes a quick look at the BFC tech forum to see that some people do have issues. It's not huge, but it is there. I also have the emails to prove it.
Quote from: mirth on March 09, 2014, 04:35:41 PM
Clearly someone from Battlefront has hacked Michael's account. :P
Then the same must have happened with mine. ;) I pretty much agree with Michael, and Zulu1966, based on my own experience with Battlefront. I haven't found them being difficult at all, quite the opposite. When I've had a problem they've sorted it and pretty quickly too.
Quote from: Boggit on March 11, 2014, 12:36:43 PM
Quote from: mirth on March 09, 2014, 04:35:41 PM
Clearly someone from Battlefront has hacked Michael's account. :P
Then the same must have happened with mine. ;) I pretty much agree with Michael, and Zulu1966, based on my own experience with Battlefront. I haven't found them being difficult at all, quite the opposite. When I've had a problem they've sorted it and pretty quickly too.
I think that everyone who has had issues has stated that their Customer Support is excellent. Still doesn't make the DRM excellent..
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on March 10, 2014, 06:45:18 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 10, 2014, 03:59:30 PM
Despite what someone said earlier - even if you are the most anti DRM person around - this IS the one game worth dropping your objection for.
These kinds of silly statements do nothing to advance the discussion. You can buy any game ever made one day and if the company goes out of business the next and you are unable to access your game the day after, you have wasted your money.
Everything is subjective, so telling someone what they should like is also equally pointless.
More to the point, I think, would be a company's track record of releasing information to the public. It may be worth noting that when Combat Mission: Campaigns was declared a no-go, BFC released the source code to the fan base. The point being that if the company was contemplating an end to their business for whatever reason, there is always a chance that they would eliminate the DRM requirement before doing so. I don't know how likely it is, but I've seen it discussed in the past. At any rate, there is nothing to suggest it would never happen, and the CM:C source code release may be a positive sign. I believe there have been discussions on that theme at BFC in the past though as someone who has had no problems with their DRM, I never really paid attention.
Yes, and its exactly these kind of derogatory posts that drag drm arguments into the dirt.
Of course it's subjective, that is what opinions are. Whether worrying about a company going out business should stop you buying a game from them is nothing more than an opinion, so therefore equally silly by your definition.
The guy asked for real world experience of their drm, not silly conjecture about what may or may not happen under a purely hypothetical set of circumstances. Perhaps if you want to help him you could answer his question instead of your own
This thread is like a carousel without the fun.
Quote from: RyanE on March 10, 2014, 09:14:47 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 10, 2014, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Asid on March 10, 2014, 03:30:37 PM
I originally made the thread to discuss real world experience with BF DRM and not about DRM in general. I did not intend for this to go any other way but i suppose it is inevitable.
Regards
Which was kind of my point - the real world experience is just fine - and should in no way stop you from buying their games. Of course if you want to listen to the imagined horror stories of others then don't buy the game or of course if you want to deny yourself the experience because of some deeply held principle around DRM (which I personally find a strange thing to hold a deeply held principal about) - then don't buy the game. All I can say is that you might walk under a bus tomorrow and you will be unable to play the game just as much as if BF went out of business and they didn't release a patch.
Despite what someone said earlier - even if you are the most anti DRM person around - this IS the one game worth dropping your objection for.
My posts are not imagined. I still like CM and play it, but the OP asked about experiences with BFC DRM. It only takes a quick look at the BFC tech forum to see that some people do have issues. It's not huge, but it is there. I also have the emails to prove it.
And I am not disputing that, just the extent to which some exaggaerate it. Again not you.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 11, 2014, 01:38:23 PM
The guy asked for real world experience of their drm, not silly conjecture about what may or may not happen under a purely hypothetical set of circumstances. Perhaps if you want to help him you could answer his question instead of your own
Exactly. This is NOT meant to be an anti-DRM thread. Neither is it meant to be an attack on anyone and that includes BF. Please relate real world experience with BF DRM as this will be useful to me. Thank you
Regards
Quote from: Asid on March 11, 2014, 01:57:54 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 11, 2014, 01:38:23 PM
The guy asked for real world experience of their drm, not silly conjecture about what may or may not happen under a purely hypothetical set of circumstances. Perhaps if you want to help him you could answer his question instead of your own
Exactly. This is NOT meant to be an anti-DRM thread. Neither is it meant to be an attack on anyone and that includes BF. Please relate real world experience with BF DRM as this will be useful to me. Thank you
Regards
Well, as I have said before, I have all of BF games under various forms of the drm. So that spans about 7 or 8 years and in all that time I have had one issue, which was sorted within an hour of me raising the support request at 1 am.
So for me at least it's a non issue and these games really are something special.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 11, 2014, 02:07:28 PM
Well, as I have said before, I have all of BF games under various forms of the drm. So that spans about 7 or 8 years and in all that time I have had one issue, which was sorted within an hour of me raising the support request at 1 am.
So for me at least it's a non issue and these games really are something special.
Noted.
Thank you :)
Quote from: Gusington on March 11, 2014, 01:42:58 PM
This thread is like a carousel without the fun.
... or bewbs.... :P
Quote from: Tuna on March 11, 2014, 01:21:18 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 11, 2014, 12:36:43 PM
Quote from: mirth on March 09, 2014, 04:35:41 PM
Clearly someone from Battlefront has hacked Michael's account. :P
Then the same must have happened with mine. ;) I pretty much agree with Michael, and Zulu1966, based on my own experience with Battlefront. I haven't found them being difficult at all, quite the opposite. When I've had a problem they've sorted it and pretty quickly too.
I think that everyone who has had issues has stated that their Customer Support is excellent. Still doesn't make the DRM excellent..
Granted. But no one is going out of their way to praise the DRM. I really dislike DRM as a generality.Ultimately, I don't see the point of DRM.
I think it is a massive pain in the ars* for most legitimate users, whilst making a minute difference for the developers on the instance of piracy. I'm not condoning piracy, but as a matter of fact if you know where to look, it's relatively easy to obtain pirated copies of even newly released games - if you really wanted to get a cracked copy of a game you will.
Leaving aside the moral issues, the point for avoiding piracy also comes from a practical perspective. If you starve developers of their income for their effort, then you'll see less game development if development becomes financially unrewarding to the point that you can't make a decent living. That said there are many publishers doing well that don't use DRM, so draw your own conclusions about its efficacy. It's certainly clear from most forum posts on the subject that most gamers recognise the link between their gaming dollar, and the future wellbeing of our gaming, especially for Indie developers in a niche market, who are likely to be more sensitive to "lost" sales.
However, having already made the decision to apply DRM to their games, I will say that Battlefront support has so far been very accomodating to me as a customer - to the point that the fact that their game contains DRM is almost irrelevant to me. I say almost, because as Ryan said earlier the DRM might be left in place if they ever went into liquidation. I hope - in that worst case - the good folks over at Battlefront would have seen the writing on the wall in time to issue a DRM circumventing patch before they were prevented to, otherwise legitimate users might feel morally justified (having paid for a license) in obtaining their re-installs from a pirate site - if no other redress is available - which is something no developer really wants to encourage.
Personally, I'd prefer if there
has to be a DRM, that the key provided could be embedded in the install software - like with Matrix/Slitherine, so that the survival of the ability to reinstall is not solely tied to the survival of the developer/publisher as a business entity.
To make it clear, I was simply teasing Michael a bit. He is often, unjustifiably in my opinion, accused of having an agenda against BFC.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 11, 2014, 01:38:23 PM
Yes, and its exactly these kind of derogatory posts that drag drm arguments into the dirt.
Discussions about the desirability of draconian DRM will always end up in the dirt. Because such DRM schemes are themselves dirt.
If there's enough bitching about them, some publishers ditch them. So there is enough reason to keep the heat cranked up on such practices.
Quote from: mirth on March 11, 2014, 05:36:51 PM
To make it clear, I was simply teasing Michael a bit. He is often, unjustifiably in my opinion, accused of having an agenda against BFC.
Another opinion, if it looks, tastes and smells...it probably is.
Quote from: Zonso on March 11, 2014, 09:15:36 PM
Quote from: mirth on March 11, 2014, 05:36:51 PM
To make it clear, I was simply teasing Michael a bit. He is often, unjustifiably in my opinion, accused of having an agenda against BFC.
Another opinion, if it looks, tastes and smells...it probably is.
And Zonso's (sic) agenda is so painfully obvious in his small number of posts here that nothing more probably needs to be said. I'll say it anyway - in 35 posts he's spent about 20% of them attempting to twist my words, accuse me of things I haven't done, drag dirty laundry from other places (inaccurately) and generally troll this forum for reactions unsuccessfully. This is just another attempt.
Grow up already.
I have every CM game ever made, installed on multiple computers over the years, and have never once had a problem with its DRM.
And, Gus, since when did carousels become fun?
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
Wow. It never ends. I just read through Zonsos posts and I don't believe 20% or less have anything to do with Dorosh's posts at all. Let alone twisting his words.
Dorosh has less than 100 posts and is already spewing his paranoia regarding other wargamers. It has been on the increase for years now. His sales on Lulu, have been on the decrease. Perhaps there is some correlation coefficient to that?
Do we now have forum "sock puppets" now joining the fray?
Looks like the flame wars can officially commence now.
Quote from: Redirected on March 15, 2014, 10:56:50 AM
Wow. It never ends. I just read through Zonsos posts and I don't believe 20% or less have anything to do with Dorosh's posts at all. Let alone twisting his words.
Dorosh has less than 100 posts and is already spewing his paranoia regarding other wargamers. It has been on the increase for years now. His sales on Lulu, have been on the decrease. Perhaps there is some correlation coefficient to that?
You have two posts so far, which have been about Dorosh's posts. Stalk much?
I love carousels. And turtles. And bewbs.
I don't like personal attacks.
One more, from anyone, and the thread will have to be locked until...hey you know what? There have been too many personal attacks already. So I'm going to lock this for a few days so everyone can cool down.
Thread unlocked. Let's keep the discussion civil and on track.
I try to stay out of the DRM threads but this relates to the original poster's question.
I went to play Strategic Command WWI bundle with the add on Breakthrough.
I was unable to start Breakthrough but can play the original SCWWI.
Just to see, I tried to play Combat Mission Battles of Normandy and it also wouldn't start.
I put in a ticket this Saturday at 4:18PM.
I received their gsclean for both days on Sunday. This is used to wipe clean your activation and to try to start over.
It did not work on the games. I was finally able to start and activate CBNM last night, Tuesday.
I still cannot get the Breakthrough part of SCWWI to activate.
I will give them the weekend but I don't think it should take three work days + to reset an activation.
I have no idea of what caused this. It is the same computer inside that it was. The only thing that I have done is add a USB HD to it.
I don't think adding a HD should cause the DRM to shutdown the game.
Quote from: magnus on March 19, 2014, 06:20:12 PM
I try to stay out of the DRM threads but this relates to the original poster's question.
Thank you for posting.
Quote from: Boggit on March 06, 2014, 10:12:11 PM
I contacted BF Support, and I got my activations reset that same working day, and was playing later on that same day. Excellent support service as far as I am concerned. Maybe I was lucky, maybe not?
Thank you, Boggit and the others who have made similar comments. I've been on the desk since last fall and there are times I obsess about it. If I'm near a computer I have it open and check it constantly. Heck, I was out of town Monday and eating lunch responding to tickets with my phone (ain't technology great). A lot of why I am like this is because I know what it must be like on the other end of the line, so to speak.
It has been nice to browse through this thread and, even through people have concerns about how good/bad/necessary/unnecessary the DRM is, everyone has said nice things about the job we do on the desk.
Thank you.
You are welcome.
I should have posted that I enjoy the games tremendously and will no doubt also buy Red Thunder and the Italy ones.
Strategic Command WWI is the best WWI game to me. Especially since all of the additions with the Breakthrough add on.
I believe I had to deal with Battlefront support once before and I was satisfied completely that day or the next. That is probably why I am upset over the last few days. A bad day of work hasn't helped my disposition.
Elvis, if you are still in the building. I keep adding comments to my support ticket but I am not sure where I stand with SCWWI Breakthrough. I was told that my serial for it had to be sent to be looked at on Monday.
I am sorry about airing this here but it is very perplexing to me why I can run the standard SCWWI but not the Breakthrough on the same serial that came when I bought the bundle.
Thank you
Quote from: magnus on March 19, 2014, 06:20:12 PM
I have no idea of what caused this. It is the same computer inside that it was. The only thing that I have done is add a USB HD to it.
I don't think adding a HD should cause the DRM to shutdown the game.
I prefer to stay as far away from these threads as possible, but someone mentioned bewbs and I was tricked into reading.
Now that I'm in here I just wanted to observe that the only thing that has triggered the Battlefront DRM for me is exactly this, adding a USB hard drive. Battlefront supplied me with the gsclean utility which fixed the issue.
In doing some research it seems that some types of DRM build a system profile based on what hardware is attached to the system to create a unique fingerprint. Adding a USB HD is apparently something that alters this fingerprint. I don't know that the Battlefront DRM uses this system, but whatever they use does seem to trigger based on the changed state of USB drives that were added after activation or were there at activation but were removed. Sometimes just putting things back the way they were can cause it all to work again.
Quote from: magnus on March 19, 2014, 07:21:23 PM
You are welcome.
I should have posted that I enjoy the games tremendously and will no doubt also buy Red Thunder and the Italy ones.
Strategic Command WWI is the best WWI game to me. Especially since all of the additions with the Breakthrough add on.
I believe I had to deal with Battlefront support once before and I was satisfied completely that day or the next. That is probably why I am upset over the last few days. A bad day of work hasn't helped my disposition.
Elvis, if you are still in the building. I keep adding comments to my support ticket but I am not sure where I stand with SCWWI Breakthrough. I was told that my serial for it had to be sent to be looked at on Monday.
I am sorry about airing this here but it is very perplexing to me why I can run the standard SCWWI but not the Breakthrough on the same serial that came when I bought the bundle.
Thank you
I was probably typing my post while you were typing yours, so it wasn't related to yours.
That said, gsclean should have taken care of Breakthrough. I sent it "upstairs" and there are times that doing that can add a day or two.
I am familiar with your ticket because I thought it was kinda cool (not that you were having a problem) what the situation was at your home.
As a follow up...I bought a new laptop last week. Was able to install all my CM games eventually. Obviously used up some activations. But it is an AMD CPU and I used AMD overdrive to adjust some power and core parking settings. As soon as I changed the speed on the CPU, I lost some of my CM2 module activations. I changed the speed back and my activations all came back except Gustav. I played around with it and every time I adjusted my CPU speed, my activations went away. If I reset it, the activations came back. I never did get Gustav to come back. I had to submit a ticket and use gsclean. All happened in a 48 hour period. Help desk was very responsive, but the activation game gets old.
Quote from: Elvis on March 19, 2014, 06:29:05 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 06, 2014, 10:12:11 PM
I contacted BF Support, and I got my activations reset that same working day, and was playing later on that same day. Excellent support service as far as I am concerned. Maybe I was lucky, maybe not?
Thank you, Boggit and the others who have made similar comments. I've been on the desk since last fall and there are times I obsess about it. If I'm near a computer I have it open and check it constantly. Heck, I was out of town Monday and eating lunch responding to tickets with my phone (ain't technology great). A lot of why I am like this is because I know what it must be like on the other end of the line, so to speak.
It has been nice to browse through this thread and, even through people have concerns about how good/bad/necessary/unnecessary the DRM is, everyone has said nice things about the job we do on the desk.
Thank you.
I was told here that you were just a "Hangaround"? Congrats on being a "Fully patched in member".
Quote from: Redirected on March 20, 2014, 12:03:31 PM
Quote from: Elvis on March 19, 2014, 06:29:05 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 06, 2014, 10:12:11 PM
I contacted BF Support, and I got my activations reset that same working day, and was playing later on that same day. Excellent support service as far as I am concerned. Maybe I was lucky, maybe not?
Thank you, Boggit and the others who have made similar comments. I've been on the desk since last fall and there are times I obsess about it. If I'm near a computer I have it open and check it constantly. Heck, I was out of town Monday and eating lunch responding to tickets with my phone (ain't technology great). A lot of why I am like this is because I know what it must be like on the other end of the line, so to speak.
It has been nice to browse through this thread and, even through people have concerns about how good/bad/necessary/unnecessary the DRM is, everyone has said nice things about the job we do on the desk.
Thank you.
I was told here that you were just a "Hangaround"? Congrats on being a "Fully patched in member".
Ahh ... a
Sons of Battlefront Prospect ;) ...they drive Kettenkrad (Sd.Kfz. 2) instead of Harleys so ;D
I should also add that I have ADD when dealing with gaming.
I will see something on TV or a book and get an urge to play a game I haven't touched in 6 months to a year.
So my view of the DRM issue might be skewed.
I am one of the few people it seems, who have had no problem with that other DRM Storm Eagle studios.
CM with DRM like a Steak & Shit combo meal, you want the Steak but, you don't want the Shit that comes with it! :D
Quote from: magnus on March 20, 2014, 03:47:51 PM
I am one of the few people it seems, who have had no problem with that other DRM Storm Eagle studios.
Speaking of Storm Eagle Studios... why is their latest Jutland/DG bundle called "the Divorce Pack"? Are they separating from Stormpowered.com or does one of the honchoes need some quick alimony money?
Quote from: SgtRock on March 20, 2014, 10:02:56 PM
CM with DRM like a Steak & Shit combo meal, you want the Steak but, you don't want the Shit that comes with it! :D
Is this your experience?
Quote from: Staggerwing on March 21, 2014, 06:22:20 AM
Quote from: magnus on March 20, 2014, 03:47:51 PM
I am one of the few people it seems, who have had no problem with that other DRM Storm Eagle studios.
Speaking of Storm Eagle Studios... why is their latest Jutland/DG bundle called "the Divorce Pack"? Are they separating from Stormpowered.com or does one of the honchoes need some quick alimony money?
Probably something more akin to the latter. It's been named that for quite awhile.
There was supposed to be some big announcement coming up a little time ago, but dunno if that ever happened. People were speculating whether a new title in their naval battle series was coming, and whether it would be going forward or backward in history from WWI.
It was about a year ago that they said to standby for a big announcement...still waiting. There is still a huge bug in larger battles where shells disappear and guns don't fire.
Quote from: SgtRock on March 20, 2014, 10:02:56 PM
CM with DRM like a Steak & Shit combo meal, you want the Steak but, you don't want the Shit that comes with it! :D
Well, hardly anyone likes DRM. >:( That's pretty much a given, and you're preaching to the converted there. However, the Steak is pretty tasty, so I've learnt to eat around the other stuff. Like you I don't like the DRM, but you're missing out if you let it ruin the rest of the meal. :(
Noted there are two more DRM issues on CMBN and CMFI forums. One is someone upgraded their PC and can't run a module. The other will need gsclean for some reason. I know the error message well.
My rough estimate is about once a week someone has an issue with the DRM on one of the games.
Quote from: RyanE on March 26, 2014, 05:10:04 PM
Noted there are two more DRM issues on CMBN and CMFI forums. One is someone upgraded their PC and can't run a module. The other will need gsclean for some reason. I know the error message well.
My rough estimate is about once a week someone has an issue with the DRM on one of the games.
That's a pain. I wonder if Elvis has an idea about what is causing all this.
Quote from: Boggit on March 26, 2014, 06:29:22 PM
Quote from: RyanE on March 26, 2014, 05:10:04 PM
Noted there are two more DRM issues on CMBN and CMFI forums. One is someone upgraded their PC and can't run a module. The other will need gsclean for some reason. I know the error message well.
My rough estimate is about once a week someone has an issue with the DRM on one of the games.
That's a pain. I wonder if Elvis has an idea about what is causing all this.
Peanut butter-banana sandwiches and too many pills?
I don't want to come across as trying to demonize BFC for using DRM. But Steve has stated they don't know why this is happening. The tech support guy on the forum freely admits its not right, but there is nothing they can do. I suspect the number of issues is relatively small because a lot of people don't tinker with their PCs and Macs. In fact, I have run into an issue with any change in processor speed kills random CMBN or CMFI modules.
I just want to make the original poster gets the balanced info and it doesn't get hidden by over-enthusiastic BFC supports.
Quote from: RyanE on March 26, 2014, 06:56:46 PM
I don't want to come across as trying to demonize BFC for using DRM.
I've found that some BFC fans will accuse you of that no matter what.
The only way such (often buggy) DRM is removed or replaced is via criticism, so don't give up. Perhaps they will eventually adopt something friendlier.
Quote from: Asid on March 21, 2014, 06:30:51 AM
Quote from: SgtRock on March 20, 2014, 10:02:56 PM
CM with DRM like a Steak & Shit combo meal, you want the Steak but, you don't want the Shit that comes with it! :D
Is this your experience?
Go read the Battlefront Support forums for CMFI & CMBN!
The PC I use to play games is a shared resource, it's configuration changes daily, (Cell phones, MP3 players, Cameras, tablet, External hard drives, different media readers, different printers, sometimes a Dual monitor setup, sometimes not), I've had license error messages even with the CMFI demo, even though it's not suppose to be active. I was told by Battlefront support that I must re-configure my PC configuration the same as it was when CM games are install to avoid issues with using their games!!! That just not going to happen, so I no longer buy Battlefront games.
Don't know why the change, I own the first 4 CM games up to SF, 3 Strategic Command games and 2 Theatre of War games but, starting the CMBN their DRM changed big time then got a lot worst with CMFI.
I think it changed because there were a lot of issues with licensing and licensing. I have had 2 HDD failures in my time using CMSF and lost activations. Plus the install, uninstall, and update process was heading towards nightmarish for BFC and users to manage. I don't think they ever expected the new DRM to have this many issues. Neither one is liked by most anti-virus programs. It can be a real issue for people not used to going in and making changes to their setups.
In the end, they really feel they need the DRM and are will to inconvenience a few of their customers. They have shown a willingness to walk away from parts of the market if they don't feel its worth the effort. This is just another example. That is most likely why they are still in business.
Quote from: Boggit on March 26, 2014, 06:29:22 PM
Quote from: RyanE on March 26, 2014, 05:10:04 PM
Noted there are two more DRM issues on CMBN and CMFI forums. One is someone upgraded their PC and can't run a module. The other will need gsclean for some reason. I know the error message well.
My rough estimate is about once a week someone has an issue with the DRM on one of the games.
That's a pain. I wonder if Elvis has an idea about what is causing all this.
Far and away the thing that causes it most is a change in a computers configuration. New motherboard, graphics cards, operating system upgrade etc.. And it doesn't happen to most people or I would be a lot more busy than I am. (I add printers, external HDs and other usb things daily and it hasn't happened to me) But for sure it happens. As, I think, someone mentioned it isn't a rampant problem. I can't say that I understand the underlying reason but I am aware of the trigger. When I see a ticket that starts out with "Every since I put my new motherboard in my computer I get an error with Gustav Line." I don't even need to read the rest of the email.
I would say that I get more tickets for lost passwords, license keys and more "user error" type things than I get for the gsclean files (i.e. I won't be out of a job if it went away :) ). That being said, eliminating this problem is on the programmers radar (that is saying something without compromising my NDA, right?)
Elvis do you know if there are any changes to the DRM for CMRT?
Quote from: SgtRock on March 27, 2014, 12:09:06 PM
Elvis do you know if there are any changes to the DRM for CMRT?
I believe it will be. It is right now. I suppose that could change but I doubt it.
Quote from: Elvis on March 27, 2014, 02:30:24 PM
Quote from: SgtRock on March 27, 2014, 12:09:06 PM
Elvis do you know if there are any changes to the DRM for CMRT?
I believe it will be. It is right now. I suppose that could change but I doubt it.
If it's the same as CMFI, someone is going to be very busy soon! Why the hell the DRM cares what USB devices I have plugged in or out is beyond me.
Quote from: SgtRock on March 27, 2014, 04:48:04 PM
Quote from: Elvis on March 27, 2014, 02:30:24 PM
Quote from: SgtRock on March 27, 2014, 12:09:06 PM
Elvis do you know if there are any changes to the DRM for CMRT?
I believe it will be. It is right now. I suppose that could change but I doubt it.
If it's the same as CMFI, someone is going to be very busy soon! Why the hell the DRM cares what USB devices I have plugged in or out is beyond me.
I don't think that it cares what a system has. I think it just thinks it's a different system.
Busy? I'm ready, coach. Put me in the game. Some days I feel like the Maytag repairman.
I think BFC's current scheme is unacceptable, mainly because they do not publish a set of conditions that disable the DRM and need either re-activation or even the cleaner. I believe that nobody inside BFC knows precisely when that happens either because the DRM vendor doesn't tell them.
We know that things like plugging in a joystick or a USB soundcard (a headset counts) disable it, or did disable it, and we don't know which one it is. Unacceptable. And of course it keeps you from cleaning up your windows with e.g. a reinstall. And some windows patches killed the DRM, too, without a reinstall? Which ones? Well BFC for sure doesn't tell us.
Finally, the DRM does everything that malware does, it anchors itself in a hidden location and doesn't remove it on uninstall (only the secret cleaner does that). So security software correctly identifies CM as malware. People then disable malware checking on BFC games. That is really bad because at the same time BFC distributes their patches via insecure third-party websites and publishes no checksums (unless I poke them enough), so it is a REALLY BAD IDEA to disable malware checking on this game.
I have come to recognize that a large part of the player base wants offline playing. However, at this point the only solution I see is a dual activation system which is that it works both as an online only system (you are logged into your BFC account when starting the game and you have a Internet connection) and you can take it offline the way you currently can.
Doing that sounds like effort but really the online thing is very simple since you need no system hackery whatsoever. And if they finally published their games in Steam they'd get it as part of that package.
And don't get me started on what will happen if they run out of money to pay the DRM vendor to keep up the activation servers.
Quote from: Redwolf on March 29, 2014, 10:45:15 AM
And don't get me started on what will happen if they run out of money to pay the DRM vendor to keep up the activation servers.
Wonder what happens if the DRM vendor goes belly up?
Quote from: SgtRock on March 29, 2014, 02:44:20 PM
Quote from: Redwolf on March 29, 2014, 10:45:15 AM
And don't get me started on what will happen if they run out of money to pay the DRM vendor to keep up the activation servers.
Wonder what happens if the DRM vendor goes belly up?
I believe a new DRM patch can be made.
What I am a little befuddled about is that this isn't the absolute highest priority for BFC to fix. I am assuming its not because they keep releasing games. I think they take customer base a little for granted.
Quote from: RyanE on March 29, 2014, 06:02:21 PM
What I am a little befuddled about is that this isn't the absolute highest priority for BFC to fix. I am assuming its not because they keep releasing games. I think they take customer base a little for granted.
I doubt it is that (based on multiple direct conversations). But I do believe it doesn't happen enough to be as high of priority as other things.
It happens enough I can get a string of emails 20-24 emails long in my BFC folder over three years and two products. Again, its not common, but its not rare either. I can't even use the fan control on my CPU without tripping it. There are a half dozen or so posts on the forums with simple USB plug ins causing issues. I am at a point of preemptively submitting a ticket before updating drivers. Both sound and video has set it off.
Emphasizing what redwolf said...BFC doesn't even seem to know what is causing it. The solution to submit a help ticket for three years is not a best practice in the software industry for a top company. Not when its gone on for three years and several product releases. I don't mean to demonize BFC, but this is the first time I have seen a BFC employee minimize the issue. That does rub me the wrong way. Just do what Schullencraft does on the tech forum, fess up and and apologize for the issue and we can get back to playing the game...and hope that the new RAM I am about install doesn't kill my game.
So I took a quick stroll through tech support memory lane. This is just six months back. And I think its improved a little since CMBN launch. Keep in mind that a couple of these threads have multiple people saying they have the same issues. There were 16 threads over 24 weeks. Some of them are borderline issues like I have mentioned, but I am sure I missed other threads. Also, keep in mind I have never posted on BFC tech forum about the issues. So I am sure there are others. btw, there are even more license issues, just not related to this...
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=114184
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113918
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113318
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=112799
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=112587
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113022
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=111383
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=112503
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=112416
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=111903
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=112187
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=112137
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=112124
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=111801
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=111727&page=2
It does not include CMFI reports either. So it probably does average out to one a week.
Quote from: SgtRock on March 29, 2014, 02:44:20 PM
Quote from: Redwolf on March 29, 2014, 10:45:15 AM
And don't get me started on what will happen if they run out of money to pay the DRM vendor to keep up the activation servers.
Wonder what happens if the DRM vendor goes belly up?
That's harmless as BFC can release their software with a different DRM. An involuntary bankruptcy on part of BFC would be very bad news for the game owners, though.
Quote from: RyanE on March 29, 2014, 07:54:55 PM
I don't mean to demonize BFC, but this is the first time I have seen a BFC employee minimize the issue. That does rub me the wrong way. Just do what Schullencraft does on the tech forum, fess up and and apologize for the issue and we can get back to playing the game...and hope that the new RAM I am about install doesn't kill my game.
Quote from: Elvis on March 27, 2014, 09:11:22 AM
[That being said, eliminating this problem is on the programmers radar (that is saying something without compromising my NDA, right?)
I'm sorry if I came off as trying to minimize the issue. That wasn't my intend (one dimensional communication and weak writing skills can do that sometimes :) ). It certainly
is an issue. And as I had said earlier in the thread, it is something that the programmers want to address.
Quote.and hope that the new RAM I am about install doesn't kill my game.
It sounds like you are one of the people that is affected by this. I would guess that you will need it after adding RAM. If you do run into a problem, and it's for a something that you've needed the tool for before...like CMFI with Gustav Line, you don't necessarily need to submit a new ticket. You can log into the Help Desk, view your old ticket and download the tool from there. It is specific to the type of computer you have (Windows or Mac) and the version of the game you have. If those things are the same as your old ticket you can just use the tool that you were sent before. Hopefully, if you have the problem after installing the RAM, that will only add a few minutes to the process rather than possible hours.
Quote from: Nefaro on March 26, 2014, 06:37:22 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 26, 2014, 06:29:22 PM
Quote from: RyanE on March 26, 2014, 05:10:04 PM
Noted there are two more DRM issues on CMBN and CMFI forums. One is someone upgraded their PC and can't run a module. The other will need gsclean for some reason. I know the error message well.
My rough estimate is about once a week someone has an issue with the DRM on one of the games.
That's a pain. I wonder if Elvis has an idea about what is causing all this.
Peanut butter-banana sandwiches and too many pills?
ROFL! ;D
I put in a new R9 270 Radeon graphics card, and 750W Corsair psu yesterday. Had a quick look at CMBN/MG, CMSF/Mar/Brts/NATO, CMFI/GL, and CMA - all seem to be ok. Was a scary moment tho', after reading about the DRM sensitivity to changes. :o Phew.. :D
How on earth would a new PSU trip a DRM? There is no software anchor for a PSU. Its just an electrical component to power your hardware.
The videocard might cause a DRM trip off, but usually DRM only trips when you have changed multiple pieces of hardware.
Quote from: Boggit on March 30, 2014, 12:55:30 PM
I put in a new R9 270 Radeon graphics card, and 750W Corsair psu yesterday. Had a quick look at CMBN/MG, CMSF/Mar/Brts/NATO, CMFI/GL, and CMA - all seem to be ok. Was a scary moment tho', after reading about the DRM sensitivity to changes. :o Phew.. :D
When I upgraded my graphics card recently I had 'no issues'.. When I upgraded my CPU last August.. both BF and DCS went belly up..
Sense the DRM is a third party product embedded in CM games, who knows what the hell else it's doing or information it collects?
I agree. It must be Russian made, invading our homes and using our webcams and Bluetooth connection to our iPhones to spy on us all day.
If we are so concerned about what a DRM might or might not gather, we should just as well cease to use the internet. What do you think Google knows about us? Or Microsoft? Or Facebook?
In this day and age it is totally naive to think you can hide yourself on the internet as a normal citizen/consumer.
If the DRM on one of my games turns out to be gathering information for marketing purposes, then its just another one on the long list of software and scripts tracking my everyday life on the electronic highway.
And so what? They know I am totally into furry pink creatures. Or that a lot of sexual toys are being delivered to my address on a regular basis.
AdBlocker does a neat job of at least blocking ads in my day to day browsing. :D
EDIT: Just reinstalled CMBN after a complete clean reinstall of my OS after that Cryptolocker debacle. The activation window didn't even popup at all and the game loads fine... go figure! (little confused)
Quote from: Yskonyn on March 31, 2014, 02:54:45 AM
I agree. It must be Russian made, invading our homes and using our webcams and Bluetooth connection to our iPhones to spy on us all day.
If we are so concerned about what a DRM might or might not gather, we should just as well cease to use the internet. What do you think Google knows about us? Or Microsoft? Or Facebook?
Whatever you choose to tell them. It's in your hands, not theirs. You willingly surrender the convenience of online shopping for your privacy.
QuoteIn this day and age it is totally naive to think you can hide yourself on the internet as a normal citizen/consumer.
It's possible, it's just difficult to do if you're determined to have everything despite shipping costs and the damage it does to local merchants who can stock the same goods, for the possible "inconvenience" of you having to wait for them to acquire it and mark it up.
QuoteIf the DRM on one of my games turns out to be gathering information for marketing purposes, then its just another one on the long list of software and scripts tracking my everyday life on the electronic highway.
By your choice.
Incidentally, you talk about not using the Internet as if it was a bad thing. There is no reason to think that would be a universally harmful option. Certainly local merchants would enjoy it.
Quote from: Yskonyn on March 31, 2014, 02:54:45 AM
EDIT: Just reinstalled CMBN after a complete clean reinstall of my OS after that Cryptolocker debacle. The activation window didn't even popup at all and the game loads fine... go figure! (little confused)
BFC's DRM anchors itself as deep as it can. It survives an install over your old windows install. That is one reason why antivirus software doesn't like it.
Quote from: Redwolf on March 31, 2014, 09:25:02 AM
Quote from: Yskonyn on March 31, 2014, 02:54:45 AM
EDIT: Just reinstalled CMBN after a complete clean reinstall of my OS after that Cryptolocker debacle. The activation window didn't even popup at all and the game loads fine... go figure! (little confused)
BFC's DRM anchors itself as deep as it can. It survives an install over your old windows install. That is one reason why antivirus software doesn't like it.
Upgrading or reinstalling your operating system can trigger it.
My limited experience is that a straight reinstall didn't trigger it, but going from win 8 to 8.1 triggered it.
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on March 31, 2014, 08:40:19 AM
By your choice.
That is what he is saying. He's saying that if they are, he doesn't care. If you do care, then follow your advise about using a local merchant. Even then, depending on how big the merchant is, you may be exchanging personal information and shopping history to receive on sale pricing. Aside from the large stores like Best Buy and large grocery store chains etc.., there is a very small toy/childrens clothing store near me that twice a year does a special sale. Fill out a card with your contact information and they let you draw balls from a box. The balls give between 20% off to 50% off to 75% off to your purchase is free. If you've done it before then you will have received a card in the mail for the ball drawing discount. Once a month I do a 20% off dinner for customers who "Like" my restaurant on the Facebooks and say the "secret" word that we post. Large or small business, customer data collection is huge. But as you correctly point out, it is by your own choice.
I'm sorry to have gone off topic. Carry on.
Indeed my choice.
I wasn't trying to segway into a general internet / privacy discussion. Just an example to illustrate my point about how I look at DRM.
I think the 'pooha' made on the internet about certain DRM schemes is just on the verge of being rabid. But then again, such seems to be the way of the gaming community at large these days anyway.
Scream if they do, scream if they don't.
*shrug*
Quote from: Yskonyn on March 31, 2014, 03:02:21 PM
Indeed my choice.
I wasn't trying to segway into a general internet / privacy discussion. Just an example to illustrate my point about how I look at DRM.
I think the 'pooha' made on the internet about certain DRM schemes is just on the verge of being rabid. But then again, such seems to be the way of the gaming community at large these days anyway.
Scream if they do, scream if they don't.
*shrug*
There would be less screaming if this DRM scheme wasn't being used. That's easy to understand.
What and whether the DRM system actually send back data to the vendor (or anybody else) should be in the EULA.
If not you can sue. And for real.
I don't think spying on the customer is an issue here at all.
One issue is that the paying customers get harassed and the pirates do not. The pirates downloads things with DRM pre-removed.
The other issue is that we *buy* the game, not *rent* it. We have a right to use it forever but the license servers will not stay up forever.
For the most part, their DRM has not bothered me. However, there were two "episodes" where it did.
The first was some years ago and it simply wouldn't connect to the interwebs...that took a couple of years to fix (I think it was Shock Force).
The second was a rebuild. Partly my fault but not helped by their confusing system. I read about the DRM (I think it was their latest version - Battles for Normandy) and it said you didn't have to unlicence...so I didn't...for any of them. Had a hell of a time for the older titles I had which should've been un-licenced.
Apart from those two episodes...all has been fine. Of course, I regard a paying customer having those two episodes as two episodes too many. But who the hell am I anyway.
Oh yeah...only THE LAW!
Quote from: Redwolf on March 31, 2014, 08:27:48 PM
What and whether the DRM system actually send back data to the vendor (or anybody else) should be in the EULA.
If not you can sue. And for real.
I don't think spying on the customer is an issue here at all.
One issue is that the paying customers get harassed and the pirates do not. The pirates downloads things with DRM pre-removed.
The other issue is that we *buy* the game, not *rent* it. We have a right to use it forever but the license servers will not stay up forever.
Has the latest EULA changed in the released PDF manual for CMRT?
Quote from: Nefaro on March 31, 2014, 07:15:19 PM
Quote from: Yskonyn on March 31, 2014, 03:02:21 PM
Indeed my choice.
I wasn't trying to segway into a general internet / privacy discussion. Just an example to illustrate my point about how I look at DRM.
I think the 'pooha' made on the internet about certain DRM schemes is just on the verge of being rabid. But then again, such seems to be the way of the gaming community at large these days anyway.
Scream if they do, scream if they don't.
*shrug*
There would be less screaming if this DRM scheme wasn't being used. That's easy to understand.
+1
And just as easy to understand that screaming in the middle of a dark forest, while everyone else is out playing in the sunny, open fields, will go unheard...
Quote from: Zonso on April 04, 2014, 08:13:00 AM
And just as easy to understand that screaming in the middle of a dark forest, while everyone else is out playing in the sunny, open fields, will go unheard...
Your comments make it seem like there is a binary situation where a few fools do not buy the game because of irrational fears while "everyone else" in the world buys it and enjoys it blissfully. Not so. Firstly, there are those who buy CM - a tiny majority of the game-playing public given the niche-market status of the game. Then there are those who have considered purchasing CM but will not for whatever reason - DRM, price, marketing strategy, can't figure out the website, whatever. And then there is the vast majority of a few billion people who have either never heard of CM or couldn't care less about it even if they did.
No one knows just how big that "everyone else" you refer to really is, but one is rarely wise to actively disenchant that segment of the market. In the case of CM it is certainly more restricted than most with regards to demographics, etc.
You assume his 'everyone else' includes everyone in a general sense, while I believe he might just mean everyone else who is playing and as such only encompasses the game community, not the whole wide world.
Discussions can be made pretty exhaustive with these language tricks to fuel a point .
Quote from: Yskonyn on April 04, 2014, 09:45:46 AM
Discussions can be made pretty exhaustive with these language tricks to fuel a point .
As evidenced by yet another vague internet metaphor, used in the post MD was referring to as way to dismiss voiced concerns by those who don't care.
The "Let them eat cake" dismissal. There - now I just did one. :P
Quote from: Yskonyn on April 04, 2014, 09:45:46 AM
You assume his 'everyone else' includes everyone in a general sense, while I believe he might just mean everyone else who is playing and as such only encompasses the game community, not the whole wide world.
Discussions can be made pretty exhaustive with these language tricks to fuel a point .
Agreed. But I don't quite understand what a...
QuoteFirstly, there are those who buy CM - a tiny majority of the game-playing public given the niche-market status of the game.
...is?
In any case, the 'leakage' or suspected leakage of sales in CMx1 must have driven the DRM situation where it is. BF would not have invested the time and money otherwise. They only know the results of this. That is, sales of CMx2 vs. CMx1. It doesn't matter what language tricks or bad math one uses (what percentage of the earth's population have computers that can even run the game?), but that's niether here nor there.
CMRT is out and maybe there will be something better to talk about now.
Quote from: Redirected on April 04, 2014, 10:21:31 AM
CMRT is out and maybe there will be something better to talk about now.
For games with problematic DRM, the conversation inevitably comes back around to the DRM. No matter how good the game may be.
I think that a hardware solution is better than all this DRM business. That is, a USB item that can be functional for the game. An example is something like a USB-memory-device. It has a coded chip inside that can be queried by an online activation system. The game can be sold on the USB device as an option to DLing. So the customer has a 'hard-copy' and also a device that would allow positive identification of the customer and the number of activations. This could be a purchase option. People could opt for this and perhaps after an initial investment, it would work for future products from the vendor. That is, it would work for CMRT and CMBN and Black Sea etc.
I am also thinking of something like a USB-headset-Motion product like the Wii technology (3 axis motion sensor). This could allow the motion of a players head to control the 'camera' motion. Of course, this would have to be an outside vendor since there doesn't seem to be an in-house developer capability at BF.
But basically, having a hardware item, that is not only functional, but a way to control 'leakage' would be my goal.
I had always been skeptical of the HW DRM option. We used to use them on manufacturing automation software. They were very unreliable and we basically sold two to every client because of it. They plugged into the old parallel port.
But I have a Steel Beasts one for a year and never had a problem. I'm scared crapless that I will forget it somewhere or my sone will use it as a USB drive.
Quote from: RyanE on April 04, 2014, 12:18:41 PM
I had always been skeptical of the HW DRM option. We used to use them on manufacturing automation software. They were very unreliable and we basically sold two to every client because of it. They plugged into the old parallel port.
But I have a Steel Beasts one for a year and never had a problem. I'm scared crapless that I will forget it somewhere or my sone will use it as a USB drive.
Yeah, I used to sell and use MasterCAM and there was a 'Dongle' protection scheme for the port but I believe it was cracked. That was many years ago. I can't believe that there are not better solutions nowadays. And, given the low price of these wargames, and the small market that some cater to, I can't believe it is worth someone's time to crack it. Also, like BIOS, I would want the 'dongle' to be upgradeable through the software company to stay ahead of any crackers trying to hack it.
Quote from: RyanE on April 04, 2014, 12:18:41 PM
I had always been skeptical of the HW DRM option. We used to use them on manufacturing automation software. They were very unreliable and we basically sold two to every client because of it. They plugged into the old parallel port.
But I have a Steel Beasts one for a year and never had a problem. I'm scared crapless that I will forget it somewhere or my sone will use it as a USB drive.
I've had USB "thumb" drives die on me before, even with light but steady use.
I agree it's not a good idea to go that route, either.
Actually, I prefer the USB key over BFC's current DRM. But I suspect its a lot more expensive for the USB than some sketchy SW DRM.
Quote from: Redirected on April 03, 2014, 08:04:10 PM
Quote from: Redwolf on March 31, 2014, 08:27:48 PM
What and whether the DRM system actually send back data to the vendor (or anybody else) should be in the EULA.
If not you can sue. And for real.
I don't think spying on the customer is an issue here at all.
One issue is that the paying customers get harassed and the pirates do not. The pirates downloads things with DRM pre-removed.
The other issue is that we *buy* the game, not *rent* it. We have a right to use it forever but the license servers will not stay up forever.
Has the latest EULA changed in the released PDF manual for CMRT?
Myself I don't care. I have a dedicated gaming machine that runs nothing else, and that I never use to surf the web. They can spy all they want on it.
(the my other computers are isolating this machine the same way as the general internet, although I though you would probably be able to empty my printer)
Quote from: mirth on April 04, 2014, 10:26:23 AM
Quote from: Redirected on April 04, 2014, 10:21:31 AM
CMRT is out and maybe there will be something better to talk about now.
For games with problematic DRM, the conversation inevitably comes back around to the DRM. No matter how good the game may be.
I an opening up the topic again because I thought this post ties directly to this discussion and is a good follow up.
I saw Steve posted on BFC that the big hold up on CMRT is the DRM. They are having issues with it. Again my point is that I have no issues with DRM, but use one that works. They have had some pretty steady issues with DRM since the CMRT was released. This is now an issue the effects every CM user. It has gone from an isolated incident here and there to delaying a much needed patch for months. I still come back to whether anyone at BFC really thinks its worth it.
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1553895&postcount=18
Quote from: RyanE on September 20, 2014, 05:20:44 AM
I an opening up the topic again because I thought this post ties directly to this discussion and is a good follow up.
I saw Steve posted on BFC that the big hold up on CMRT is the DRM. They are having issues with it. Again my point is that I have no issues with DRM, but use one that works. They have had some pretty steady issues with DRM since the CMRT was released. This is now an issue the effects every CM user. It has gone from an isolated incident here and there to delaying a much needed patch for months. I still come back to whether anyone at BFC really thinks its worth it.
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1553895&postcount=18
Quote
We expected to turn around and release the Red Thunder patch a week or two later. Unfortunately DRM issues crept into the mix and we've been having problems getting the thing to run reliably. So it's been dragged out unexpectedly.
Like most modern software, DRM is also lousy with bugs.
It's unfortunate that BF believes these headaches absolutely essential. :idiot2:
As a BFC die-hard, I will only repeat that I've never once had DRM trouble. *touches wood*
Also, the characterization that the DRM was the main reason for the delay is inaccurate. Steve clearly said that the building bug (which I can imagine was substantial) caused months of delay while whatever the DRM problem was took only a week or two.
Missing our on CM:RT (or BN or FI for that matter) because of, in my experience, unfounded concerns re: DRM strikes me as regrettable.
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
The only mention of weeks is they said they "planned" on releasing it a week or so after the upgrade. The upgrade was over a month ago. And it sounds like a fix is not in sight.
At some point, the ROI on paying for the DRM software, having to implement it, maintaining the support structure to deal with it, having to retool the modules periodically for it, and the grief to customers must come up on the negative side for that type of DRM.
Quote from: Cyrano on September 20, 2014, 03:47:40 PM
Missing our on CM:RT (or BN or FI for that matter) because of, in my experience, unfounded concerns re: DRM strikes me as regrettable.
I'll have to disagree there. Taking a stance against draconian, obstructive, counter-productive DRM policies is
laudable in my opinion, not regrettable (especially for the sake of one video game).
Of course, that was before everyone accepted Steam into their lives...
Steam makes DRM palatable by seducing us with some insanely cheap deals. Resistance is futile.
Mirth beat me to it, there's really no fight left.
I understand that each of us has our own tolerance for DRM and, even within that, will find particular types of DRM more noxious than others. As I just said elsewhere, I find the PBEM++ far worse than anything BFC ever dreamt and I've been able to play RT on my main PC which is, sadly, more than I can say for John Tiller's Modern War, but that's another story.
I've no desire to aggravate good folks hereabout by re-engaging on this time after time, but, for those who might visit this thread for the first time, I just wanted to make it known that there are a great many, myself included, that have not had and do not have any problems with the BFC DRM and that do think that missing out on a game of this quality for that reason is, indeed, regrettable.
Best,
Jim
"CYrano"
:/7)
Quote from: RyanE on September 20, 2014, 04:31:04 PM
The only mention of weeks is they said they "planned" on releasing it a week or so after the upgrade. The upgrade was over a month ago. And it sounds like a fix is not in sight.
At some point, the ROI on paying for the DRM software, having to implement it, maintaining the support structure to deal with it, having to retool the modules periodically for it, and the grief to customers must come up on the negative side for that type of DRM.
Yes, BF admitted that a partial reason for the delay is the DRM, but the rest of their statement states the original reason for the delay was the building bug..it seems that has been overlooked here and focus only squarely put on the DRM. As I have said before, their DRM is not my favorite and wish they had something else, but they are not going to change so seems like a merry-go-round to continue bringing it up.
The merry go round might have some impact. They did change the DRM vendor and somewhat the strategy between CMSF and CMBN. There were a multitude of issues with the CMSF DRM and it was becoming very complex to patch and update. It was complex just uninstalling the right way, let alone reinstalling.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on September 20, 2014, 07:46:50 PM
Quote from: RyanE on September 20, 2014, 04:31:04 PM
The only mention of weeks is they said they "planned" on releasing it a week or so after the upgrade. The upgrade was over a month ago. And it sounds like a fix is not in sight.
At some point, the ROI on paying for the DRM software, having to implement it, maintaining the support structure to deal with it, having to retool the modules periodically for it, and the grief to customers must come up on the negative side for that type of DRM.
Yes, BF admitted that a partial reason for the delay is the DRM, but the rest of their statement states the original reason for the delay was the building bug..it seems that has been overlooked here and focus only squarely put on the DRM. As I have said before, their DRM is not my favorite and wish they had something else, but they are not going to change so seems like a merry-go-round to continue bringing it up.
The building bug was fixed when 3.0 came out I think mid-August. After that it was DRM-related.
I have stayed away from the latest CM games (I own everything through Shockforce Marines) in part due to the DRM and in part because Steve has often comes across as an abrasive d-bag to customers, imho. These things do make a difference with potential customers.
Am I missing out on some great wargames? I don't doubt it. Do I lack for great wargames to play? Not in the least. The only real power I have as a customer is to vote with my dollars.
Like I said, Steam is fairly easy to take because the games are often absurdly cheap and for the most part Steam just works. If I'm going to pay the full $40-50 bucks for a game, I don't want ANY hassled with the DRM.
There's something in the back of my mind that's trying to remind me of another reason I've never bought any Battlefront games. Something to do with paying for patches maybe? Or am I barking up the wrong tree completely?
Quote from: Huw the Poo on September 21, 2014, 05:42:44 PM
There's something in the back of my mind that's trying to remind me of another reason I've never bought any Battlefront games. Something to do with paying for patches maybe? Or am I barking up the wrong tree completely?
I've started some past flame wars by bringing up such methods with the CM series.
All started when they had the audacity to make me
buy the last CMSF patch because I had the physical DVD version (the Digital version got the upgrade free). It was a symbolic $1 and it would have the added advantage of "upgrading" me to their digital registration DRM. Something I didn't want in the first place (hence why I had picked up the DVD).
Second time I picked up the CMBN+Commonwealth bundle only to learn a month later that the future editions were gonna be full-priced standalones, instead of modular add-ons, and that I'd have to purchase future patches instead. Meh. What a mess.
I got more than enough good games to keep me busy, and with less hassle. Fortunately I'm not one of those people who are anchored to playing WW2 all the time. :P
These things make sense to those who play nothing but CM. But for those who have other games to play, they think BF is nuts.
As I said before, no need to go on and argue who's right or wrong.
Quote from: RyanE on September 20, 2014, 05:20:44 AM
Quote from: mirth on April 04, 2014, 10:26:23 AM
Quote from: Redirected on April 04, 2014, 10:21:31 AM
CMRT is out and maybe there will be something better to talk about now.
For games with problematic DRM, the conversation inevitably comes back around to the DRM. No matter how good the game may be.
I an opening up the topic again because I thought this post ties directly to this discussion and is a good follow up.
I saw Steve posted on BFC that the big hold up on CMRT is the DRM. They are having issues with it. Again my point is that I have no issues with DRM, but use one that works. They have had some pretty steady issues with DRM since the CMRT was released. This is now an issue the effects every CM user. It has gone from an isolated incident here and there to delaying a much needed patch for months. I still come back to whether anyone at BFC really thinks its worth it.
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1553895&postcount=18
What is the "building bug" he is talking about?
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on September 21, 2014, 11:30:30 PM
Quote from: RyanE on September 20, 2014, 05:20:44 AM
Quote from: mirth on April 04, 2014, 10:26:23 AM
Quote from: Redirected on April 04, 2014, 10:21:31 AM
CMRT is out and maybe there will be something better to talk about now.
For games with problematic DRM, the conversation inevitably comes back around to the DRM. No matter how good the game may be.
I an opening up the topic again because I thought this post ties directly to this discussion and is a good follow up.
I saw Steve posted on BFC that the big hold up on CMRT is the DRM. They are having issues with it. Again my point is that I have no issues with DRM, but use one that works. They have had some pretty steady issues with DRM since the CMRT was released. This is now an issue the effects every CM user. It has gone from an isolated incident here and there to delaying a much needed patch for months. I still come back to whether anyone at BFC really thinks its worth it.
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1553895&postcount=18
What is the "building bug" he is talking about?
Some people with a very specific video card and computer configuration have a problem where units will not enter single level modular buildings.
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=114405
Quote from: mirth on September 20, 2014, 06:04:16 PM
Steam makes DRM palatable by seducing us with some insanely cheap deals. Resistance is futile.
Personally I like Steam's DRM (always online, not tied to specific computers) a lot better than that mess that the BFC DRM is. I understand that there is a large part of the CM player base that wants offline capability. But the right split would have been to use always online with a feature to register certain offline enabled installations, under pretty much the same conditions as they are right now.
Steam (always online) doesn't require intrusive software (that always gets CM identified as malware), I can play on any computer I want, I can try my luck running it in wine (a lot of windows games now do, except that BFC's DRM specifically forbids doing that) and the game vendors doesn't have to hack anything up, it doesn't delay game releases or patches.
If others want offline, too, then release that as a special solution for them instead of harassing everybody with unusual and cruel (blunt) naive old-style DRM. This isn't 1994 anymore.
Steam is not always online...not even close. I play Steam games offline all the time.
Quote from: RyanE on October 31, 2014, 03:50:55 PM
Steam is not always online...not even close. I play Steam games offline all the time.
Well it would be if BFC was on it. The point is, even if it is always online it's better than the garbage they are using the money we give them (the paying customers) for now.
While I tend to agree with you, you're argument is tough to support when you seem to little about the current market.
I have opened a ticket regarding my vehicle pack activation. The helpdesk is working on it very fast, even when it is Saturday.
Feels bad because I bought everything for CMBN and I can't play any of that. Payed $20, lost $100+ kinda deal. LOL. I'm sure it's going to get fixed ... But I would say the DRM has just started to be too much of a hurdle for me.
EDIT: all my activation issues now fixed. SAFU or helpdesk.
I've got to tell you...I'm extremely frustrated with Battlefront and their stupid cumbersome licensing process. I now find myself in the familiar position of being unable to reinstall software I have paid for because I am out of licenses and am unable to properly unlicense all of my modules from an older system. Seriously, this system is antiquated, frustrating and truly unfair to the customer.
I own CM: Shock Force and all associated modules. I'd like to install the series on my new rig, but of course, I'm out of licenses. Not the biggest deal if the unlicensing software actually worked, but of course, it doesn't. Although I was able to properly unlicense the Nato module, I received a missing .dll error for both Marines and British Forces. This error is peculiar since the .dll that was supposedly missing was located right in the main SF folder. What the hell. So anyway, the games proceed to uninstall without unlicensing! So now I don't have the games on any system and can't reinstall.
I sent a ticket to Battlefront last night and have not heard back yet. This happened two years ago, and although BF refreshed a license back then, I was "warned" (yes, thats what it felt like) to be sure to unlicense because they would not be willing to continue refreshing them. Well, without unlicensing software that actually works, that position is bullshit!
It'll be interesting to see how long I have to wait until I hear something from them. I noticed they no longer have a dedicated elicense customer service email account.
I've been a very loyal customer for almost two decades and have purchased probably 95% of their catalogue. Battlefront needs to do better.
I'm not sure if this new activation system is used for Shockforce but there is no unlicense function for Normandy and Red Thunder.
http://battlefront.mojohelpdesk.com/help/article/127981
Note: there is no way to "unlicense" a previously activated copy on a PC. Which has the advantage that you can't ever forget to do so :-)
In addition to the above 4 activations, you can add one extra activation to your key every 365 days. In order to do this, please point your browser to http://www.battlefront.com/helpdesk to ask our support team for a reset.
If your key is eligible for an additional activation (e.g. if it was not already requested less than 365 days ago), then you'll be notified of it and the activation is automatically added to your key, so you can use it again.
Should you ever need an additional activation more than once within the 365 days period, then you can always contact our License Activation Support staff and explain the situation.
You have every reason to be upset and disappointed with it.
I had hoped, for years, that BF would come to a better solution that is far more user friendly. Or just remove it completely. But it has become even worse.
I stopped purchasing from them awhile back. With so many great and user-friendly games coming out, why spend my past-time being frustrated with their troublesome BS?
I purchased a physical copy of Normandy (granted from someone else) but managed to lose the reg code paper after installing on my old computer. Went to re-install and couldn't find the code, contacted BF and was told "sorry, you're going to have to repurchase the game".
Physical copy but couldn't do a dang thing with it.
I'm glad I read this thread.
Not sure if this game is for me (lack of patience!), but reading about the DRM issues here there is no way I'd buy any BF products.
Sorry to hear folks are screwed out of their purchases. That kinda sucks! :tickedoff:
The other thing that amazes me with BF is their patching scheme. That has to be the most obtuse way of handling updates I've ever seen. I'm a programmer and I don't really get what they're trying to accomplish.
Quote from: Nefaro on April 21, 2016, 01:19:30 PM
why spend my past-time being frustrated with their troublesome BS?
Hey Nef.
You having trouble with Black Sea? :P
Just messing :-*
I have had so much trouble with Battlefront DRM that I will not purchase any of their games.
Quote from: WYBaugh on April 21, 2016, 02:52:24 PM
The other thing that amazes me with BF is their patching scheme. That has to be the most obtuse way of handling updates I've ever seen. I'm a programmer and I don't really get what they're trying to accomplish.
I am the furthest thing from a BFC fanboy, but I've honestly never had a problem with the licensing and I own most of their CM-related titles. Admittedly, I don't replace my computer every 12 months. Not trying to diminish the frustrations of other here, just saying I haven't experienced any of them myself.
I am someone who replaces his PC every 12 months or faster. I have become very frustrated with the DRM system. BFC has surpassed Graviteam in the complexity of patching and updating. I also think the secret behind the slow development process for packs and engine vs module debate is centered on the DRM system not being very efficient for modules.
Just like Graviteam; great games, but terrible customer experience. The games are built for people with five year old computers.
So since I STILL have not received a reply from BF, I went to the very inconvenient lengths of digging out a REALLY old system that I believed had all games installed and licensed. I got it running and sure enough, everything was installed. I was able to unlicense Nato and British Forces this time. However, I STILL cannot unlicense Marines. This time, I'm getting an error code that the first phase of the unlicensing cannot be completed. "The system identifier used to generate the license for this system cannot be retrieved."
W-T-F?
I feel your pain JH. Been there :knuppel2:
^ I pretty much have stopped buying BF products specifically because of their ridiculous DRM system.
Don't get me wrong- I love the games. But I just can't be arsed with this kind of nonsense, not when there are so very many awesome games to be played, and not when there are such simple and feasible DRM systems out there, like Steam for example.
Quote from: Toonces on April 21, 2016, 04:31:33 PM
^ I pretty much have stopped buying BF products specifically because of their ridiculous DRM system.
Don't get me wrong- I love the games. But I just can't be arsed with this kind of nonsense, not when there are so very many awesome games to be played, and not when there are such simple and feasible DRM systems out there, like Steam for example.
+100 >:(
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on April 21, 2016, 04:03:14 PM
So since I STILL have not received a reply from BF, I went to the very inconvenient lengths of digging out a REALLY old system that I believed had all games installed and licensed. I got it running and sure enough, everything was installed. I was able to unlicense Nato and British Forces this time. However, I STILL cannot unlicense Marines. This time, I'm getting an error code that the first phase of the unlicensing cannot be completed. "The system identifier used to generate the license for this system cannot be retrieved."
W-T-F?
Have you heard back yet? I have no open tickets. I am on East Coast time and normally get to tickets as soon as I wake up but this morning my 11 year old had surgery, so I left the house in a rush super early and didn't get to any until I got her home from the hospital and tucked in (probably 10am-11am local time). Unfortunately, we are not able to provide 24 hour customer service.
PM me your real name and I'll see if I can find the ticket.
As a note, if you do have an older game like CMSF that used the old DRM system and have run out of activatiions, when opening a ticket, include all of the affected license keys. It saves an email exchange.
Quote from: WYBaugh on April 21, 2016, 01:23:32 PM
I purchased a physical copy of Normandy (granted from someone else) but managed to lose the reg code paper after installing on my old computer. Went to re-install and couldn't find the code, contacted BF and was told "sorry, you're going to have to repurchase the game".
Physical copy but couldn't do a dang thing with it.
I'm not sure that I understand. Did
you purchase the game or did someone else?
If you purchased the game as a physical disc purchase ONLY, then the key is on the CD case. If you purchased a copy of the physical disc with the download option, the key will always be in your account.
Thanks, Elvis. PM sent.
Quote from: Toonces on April 21, 2016, 04:31:33 PM
Don't get me wrong- I love the games. But I just can't be arsed with this kind of nonsense, not when there are so very many awesome games to be played, and not when there are such simple and feasible DRM systems out there, like Steam for example.
Really wish BF would migrate the CM games to Steam. Wouldn't have to do it exclusively, they could still sell their product directly through their website as well, as other outfits do (like Slitherine).
With the Graviteam Tactics games coming to Steam, I really think BF is missing the boat. Although from everything I've read on the BF forums, there seems zero chance of this happening. Seems really shortsighted to me.
Quote from: Toonces on April 21, 2016, 04:31:33 PM
^ I pretty much have stopped buying BF products specifically because of their ridiculous DRM system.
But they replaced it.
I hope all is well with your daughter and that she makes a speedy recovery. It's not easy seeing a child in discomfort. I've no doubt you'd take her place in a second.
Damn, Elvis, I hope everything works out with your daughter. Sorry to hear that. My thoughts are with you.
Quote from: bbmike on April 21, 2016, 06:33:09 PM
Damn, Elvis, I hope everything works out with your daughter. Sorry to hear that. My thoughts are with you.
+1
Quote from: sandman2575 on April 21, 2016, 06:40:10 PM
Quote from: bbmike on April 21, 2016, 06:33:09 PM
Damn, Elvis, I hope everything works out with your daughter. Sorry to hear that. My thoughts are with you.
+1
Yeah...+1. Priorities.
Quote from: Elvis on April 21, 2016, 05:29:19 PM
Quote from: WYBaugh on April 21, 2016, 01:23:32 PM
I purchased a physical copy of Normandy (granted from someone else) but managed to lose the reg code paper after installing on my old computer. Went to re-install and couldn't find the code, contacted BF and was told "sorry, you're going to have to repurchase the game".
Physical copy but couldn't do a dang thing with it.
I'm not sure that I understand. Did you purchase the game or did someone else?
If you purchased the game as a physical disc purchase ONLY, then the key is on the CD case. If you purchased a copy of the physical disc with the download option, the key will always be in your account.
Also hope your daughter is doing well!
Elvis it was purchased from someone else. I re-purchased it direct from BF after this so just me griping.
Quote from: WYBaugh on April 21, 2016, 07:30:09 PM
Quote from: Elvis on April 21, 2016, 05:29:19 PM
Quote from: WYBaugh on April 21, 2016, 01:23:32 PM
I purchased a physical copy of Normandy (granted from someone else) but managed to lose the reg code paper after installing on my old computer. Went to re-install and couldn't find the code, contacted BF and was told "sorry, you're going to have to repurchase the game".
Physical copy but couldn't do a dang thing with it.
I'm not sure that I understand. Did you purchase the game or did someone else?
If you purchased the game as a physical disc purchase ONLY, then the key is on the CD case. If you purchased a copy of the physical disc with the download option, the key will always be in your account.
Also hope your daughter is doing well!
Elvis it was purchased from someone else. I re-purchased it direct from BF after this so just me griping.
I can dig it. But, I hope you understand that when someone contacts you, who didn't purchase the game, and asks for an activation key that it raises obvious flags, right? So, I'm not sure what the beef would be with us. Sounds like the beef would be with the person that you purchased it from. I've told stories on this forum (maybe this thread even) of tickets that I have gotten from people demanding license keys from us that never purchased the game from us. My favorite (also posted before) was this one. It never gets old:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi208.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb203%2Felviscos01%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FIMG_20141019_222442-1_zps2dc4bb62.jpg&hash=ef02d22210e3a98d8fdb9c33f0a03bf8635fab41)
Thank you guys for the kind words. I'm not sure who was crying more when she was waking up in recovery....me or her. I'm posting a picture (and going WAY off topic) because it was something that I have never seen before. She had a tooth growing perpendicular to her other teeth, under the gums. And a pretty big cyst had formed. Everything went well and she spent most of the day drinking milkshakes and eating ice cream.....until about 10 minutes ago......I think everything has worn off....just loaded her with some meds. Poor little peanut.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi208.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb203%2Felviscos01%2FX09850_1_zpszxvzbey0.jpg&hash=28f2d52c6dc6382e5146246e832c1e3494fc5dc7)
Quote from: Elvis on April 21, 2016, 07:52:11 PM
Quote from: WYBaugh on April 21, 2016, 07:30:09 PM
Quote from: Elvis on April 21, 2016, 05:29:19 PM
Quote from: WYBaugh on April 21, 2016, 01:23:32 PM
I purchased a physical copy of Normandy (granted from someone else) but managed to lose the reg code paper after installing on my old computer. Went to re-install and couldn't find the code, contacted BF and was told "sorry, you're going to have to repurchase the game".
Physical copy but couldn't do a dang thing with it.
I'm not sure that I understand. Did you purchase the game or did someone else?
If you purchased the game as a physical disc purchase ONLY, then the key is on the CD case. If you purchased a copy of the physical disc with the download option, the key will always be in your account.
Also hope your daughter is doing well!
Elvis it was purchased from someone else. I re-purchased it direct from BF after this so just me griping.
I can dig it. But, I hope you understand that when someone contacts you, who didn't purchase the game, and asks for an activation key that it raises obvious flags, right? So, I'm not sure what the beef would be with us. Sounds like the beef would be with the person that you purchased it from. I've told stories on this forum (maybe this thread even) of tickets that I have gotten from people demanding license keys from us that never purchased the game from us. My favorite (also posted before) was this one. It never gets old:
Well I definitely had the boxed game but I understand where you're coming from.
The last time I uninstalled CMSF I got the same error message. BFC reset one license for me, but it took a couple days.
I ran into trouble with CMSF a few years back too. But I got a reply within 24 hrs of posting my ticket.
Just last week I had to contact them about CMBN's licensing system preventing me to activate and again I got helped properly within 24 hrs of submitting my ticket.
Now, I agree we shouldn't have to contact them for this horseshit in the first place. And yes, I do find their licensing system cumbersome and annoying. But their support has always been top notch for me, when I needed it.
Quote from: Asid on April 21, 2016, 03:02:53 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on April 21, 2016, 01:19:30 PM
why spend my past-time being frustrated with their troublesome BS?
Hey Nef.
You having trouble with Black Sea? :P
Just messing :-*
;D
Black Sea came out after my Battlefront Cutoff Date™.
;)
Quote from: Yskonyn on April 22, 2016, 02:55:12 AM
I ran into trouble with CMSF a few years back too. But I got a reply within 24 hrs of posting my ticket.
Just last week I had to contact them about CMBN's licensing system preventing me to activate and again I got helped properly within 24 hrs of submitting my ticket.
Now, I agree we shouldn't have to contact them for this horseshit in the first place. And yes, I do find their licensing system cumbersome and annoying. But their support has always been top notch for me, when I needed it.
Elvis was very responsive and connected me with Steve who reset my licenses. My beef is definitely not with the customer service. I just wish they would change the drm system and policy.
This has been my point from the get-go...
Great game - check
Good customer service - check
Crappiest DRM around - check
I am not against DRM per se. I am against poorly designed DRM where the customer has to constantly be on the look out for the slightest issue forcing you to have to take the extra steps of contacting BFC, running some stupid reg cleaner, and hoping it works. That doesn't even count that you'll never get your activations back. I have no activations left for CMBN due to all the issues over the yeras. I'll never get those activations back. Every time I have to change PCs, I have to ask for a new activation.
I am not a huge fan of Steam, but if it get BFC to get rid of their asinine DRM system, I am all for it. The funny thing is that there used to be two games I played with worse DRM or patchng process, SES's Jutland and Graviteam's Operation Star. SES has basically ceased operation in any effective form. Graviteam has moved to Steam. That leaves BFC at the top. And it seems like the more modules that come out for a game, the worse it gets. CMBN is a nightmare to reinstall or fix if the DRM kicks off.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on April 22, 2016, 05:51:35 AM
My beef is definitely not with the customer service. I just wish they would change the drm system and policy.
We actually have....several times in the last 9 years since CMSF came out. :)
...and in some ways, made it worse. At least you could unlicense CMSF and move it. Which I have done multiple times. With CMBN+, we were supposed to have 5 activations and then one added each year you owned it. Instead, once you have used up the 5 activations, for whatever reasons, you will always have to ask for one more when you change computers. I have yet to see any activations given back beyond getting the one back that is requested. There is no way to track how many activations you have. The "One activation a year added into the pool" has never worked from what I can see. It just seems like a waste of time for both customers and BFC.
@Elvis -- hope your daughter is recovering well -- one of my daughters has been through a couple of surgeries so I know what it's like and sympathize -- it's fun for nobody.
Also -- cover on that pirated CM is amazing.
Quote from: Elvis on April 22, 2016, 07:01:50 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on April 22, 2016, 05:51:35 AM
My beef is definitely not with the customer service. I just wish they would change the drm system and policy.
We actually have....several times in the last 9 years since CMSF came out. :)
Yeah...I guess I mean, change it for the better. O:-)
...and revise the system for the older games. Its one thing to improve it for current or future titles, but the older titles should be updated together with the new.
Quote from: sandman2575 on April 22, 2016, 08:33:23 AM
Also -- cover on that pirated CM is amazing.
That game looks quite good, actually. I wish someone would make it. lol
because it has you on the front cover? :P
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on April 22, 2016, 08:40:49 AM
That game looks quite good, actually. I wish someone would make it. lol
Seriously. Helicopter gunships for the assault on Omaha beach. Why didn't Ike think of that?
Saw this post on the CMBN forum and thought it was appropriate for the topic...
http://community.battlefront.com/topic/122712-patches-a-real-dogs-breakfast/
Quote from: RyanE on April 22, 2016, 06:04:44 AM
I am not a huge fan of Steam, but if it get BFC to get rid of their asinine DRM system, I am all for it. The funny thing is that there used to be two games I played with worse DRM or patchng process, SES's Jutland and Graviteam's Operation Star. SES has basically ceased operation in any effective form. Graviteam has moved to Steam. That leaves BFC at the top. And it seems like the more modules that come out for a game, the worse it gets. CMBN is a nightmare to reinstall or fix if the DRM kicks off.
(my bold)
SES'
Jutland changed from the limited activation DRM nonsense to their own Steam-like distro client.
So even they listened to their customer's complaints and switched to something more user-friendly. Unfortunately for them, they had stuck with their earlier DRM long enough that many users had already swore off them by the time they changed.
I raised the topic on their forum multiple times. For a customer like me an "online-only" licensing scheme where a user account to start a game can be logged in once would be better. Just like you play a MMORPG. That scheme would be particularly good if you only had to be online to start the game and then walk out of wifi range to answer that PBEM move.
However, a majority of the forum citizens said they prefer the lock-to-computer system. That was before BFC changes to not even have an unlicense function anymore. They do give you more, though, if you can convince them that it's you and you didn't do anything wacky.
Another disgusting detail about the system-intrusive DRM is that it easily breaks, and for no good reason, when you change things about the OS. For starters that makes ever running in Wine much more difficult. But don't say that it is just us FreeBSD and Linux people who are affected. Blows up with MS and OSX changes, too.
Quote from: sandman2575 on April 22, 2016, 08:33:23 AM
@Elvis -- hope your daughter is recovering well -- one of my daughters has been through a couple of surgeries so I know what it's like and sympathize -- it's fun for nobody.
Just seen this, and I share Sandman's best wishes for a speedy recovery of your daughter.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on April 22, 2016, 08:38:42 AM
Quote from: Elvis on April 22, 2016, 07:01:50 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on April 22, 2016, 05:51:35 AM
My beef is definitely not with the customer service. I just wish they would change the drm system and policy.
We actually have....several times in the last 9 years since CMSF came out. :)
Yeah...I guess I mean, change it for the better. O:-)
...and revise the system for the older games. Its one thing to improve it for current or future titles, but the older titles should be updated together with the new.
+1. Great customer support, but no customer likes DRM.
Ok, I get that Battlefront feels they must have it, but JH makes a really good point: Make it the same for all the games rather than different methods for each game to make it easier and more convenient for your customers.