Matrix Games, Whatever Are You Thinking?

[Rogo727]

I've never been one to bitch about pricing at Matrix, since their business model is obviously working for them. Until now.

As part of the new distribution deal with Ageod, today they announced the release of Pride of Nations - for $24.99 digital, and $34.99 hard copy. Forgetting for a moment that this is a 3 year old game that can be had just about everywhere for $10, the game was only $20 at release 3 years ago.

Could this be a belated April Fools joke?

Hi!  Let me say that I have posted many times about this on the matrix forums.   Erik and Iain told me that they know what they are doing and as I consumer I shouldn't question more or less their " business model". So called.   They have no clue really.   I think this is the start of their downfall.

[Rogo727]

I often scratch my head, but I can see where they are coming from. Their customers have patience and will wait out more standard pricing models. At the same time, keeping the price of their premium games at the $80 level for years doesn't make sense to me. I would really like to own WitP, but I am not going to pay $80, ever. I would pay 35-40 for it, but they want $80 or nothing. They really do need to update their pricing model, it would likely produce a large number of sales for certain products.

They do need to keep an eye out for a game available at other outlets for much cheaper prices. If thats true, that is very tone deaf of the Matrix marketing person.

Yeah, the price of the back catalog is rather insane. I don't think anyone is saying they should just give games away, but when 7+ year old titles are still $50 and up...really? Is anyone still buying in at that rate? In the case of a series especially, offering the older stuff for a much lower cost gives a nice entry point for a new gamer to try out an older version of the system. Some of them are probably going to like it enough that they're willing to pony up for the newer stuff.

I paid 1.99 for this game.....

[Rogo727]

I have often questioned their pricing as well, but they stay in business, so they must be doing something right.  But kind of strange they would make it a higher price than is available in other places.  Don't get me wrong, I like Matrix, but if I can find the same product cheaper elsewhere, I have no loyalties from that perspective:)

I was once a staunch Matrix loyalist. And would often spend a few more quid, just to know I had Matrix's level of support behind my wargames collection. But nowadays, they take on titles to fill their stock list, but they don't really provide the same level of support in terms of updates and competitive pricing, and platform diversity.

Take Unity of Command as an example, it's best to source this off the devs direct, they provide instant support, updates that happen as they are released, and not two months later, plus they'll even hand out Steam keys if you want to attach the product to Steam - and go Linux.

Matrix has a place, I have more or less their entire collection up to a about a year ago. But now, I'm reluctant to shell for titles, especially when they seem to be collection fillers, that they want to charge high prices for. Most of the stuff that lands in Matrix's bucket recently has been available elsewhere long before, and is often not as expensive, nor limited to Matrix's serial coded exe install files mechanism.

I'm always strapped for cash to pay expensive for loyalty, and life's too short to wait for Matrix to release updates/patches/DLC expansions when developers are releasing them two months earlier (yes, Unity of Command: Red Turn again).

Their Easter egg sale 30% off because we screwed up the dcl on BA but hey f&$k you people who already bought this game and now this is making me like them less and less.

[Arctic Blast]

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Not sure I get the logic of the age of the game thing in it being cheaper ? I am not sure I understand why it should be cheaper for you just because you didnt buy it at release ? Its still the same game it was when it released so I dont get that as the sole criterea for you expecting to see it cheaper ?.  Other games in other genres get sold cheaper not as some kind of atruistic reward from the publisher for the buyers patience but as attempt to sell to those who may pick it up on a whim or wouldnt have bought it in the first place. They only get sold cheaper because that model works for large volume sales operations. Its patently a model that will never work for niche wargame products as they operate with a ceiling of buyers to start with and then further limited by particular preferences in period or conflict for wargamers.

Not bitching at you, honestly  - just dispute your reasoning about age being an automatic qualifier for a price reduction and the fact you are applying a business model that doesnt work in this market. Sure - they may pick up a few more sales if they halve the price but it is never going to be a steam sale type argument where they may sell a few hundred thousand more with one of their ridiculous price points. I remain to be convinced that model ever works in the wargaming market to the extent some people seem to beleive it would.

But are they actually selling ANY copies of old catalog products at those high prices? Anyone who is buying them waits until the Christmas sale and buys them at a discount. So how are they ahead by keeping the price points ratcheted up to where they were when the game released 8 years back?

I'm not saying it makes sense to sell them for $5, but a drop from $50-$60 to something more like $30 might mean a few people jump in. And that beats nobody buying it at all.

[Tuna]

A lot of the 'old' games are still too expensive during the Xmas sales!...

[Zulu1966]

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Not sure I get the logic of the age of the game thing in it being cheaper ? I am not sure I understand why it should be cheaper for you just because you didnt buy it at release ? Its still the same game it was when it released so I dont get that as the sole criterea for you expecting to see it cheaper ?.  Other games in other genres get sold cheaper not as some kind of atruistic reward from the publisher for the buyers patience but as attempt to sell to those who may pick it up on a whim or wouldnt have bought it in the first place. They only get sold cheaper because that model works for large volume sales operations. Its patently a model that will never work for niche wargame products as they operate with a ceiling of buyers to start with and then further limited by particular preferences in period or conflict for wargamers.

Not bitching at you, honestly  - just dispute your reasoning about age being an automatic qualifier for a price reduction and the fact you are applying a business model that doesnt work in this market. Sure - they may pick up a few more sales if they halve the price but it is never going to be a steam sale type argument where they may sell a few hundred thousand more with one of their ridiculous price points. I remain to be convinced that model ever works in the wargaming market to the extent some people seem to beleive it would.

But are they actually selling ANY copies of old catalog products at those high prices? Anyone who is buying them waits until the Christmas sale and buys them at a discount. So how are they ahead by keeping the price points ratcheted up to where they were when the game released 8 years back?

I'm not saying it makes sense to sell them for $5, but a drop from $50-$60 to something more like $30 might mean a few people jump in. And that beats nobody buying it at all.

Well I know, but thats essentially my point really, ie you dont know if it works, its only a presumption, seemingly logical I agree, on your part. My belief is they sell 80% of the games they are going to sell within a couple of weeks of its release, the rest are just trickle sales and the difference between those trickle sales at one price or another is negligible. As far as I can tell with regard to matrix they do have sales at various points where reductions are given.

Essentially my point goes back to the  fact no one knows the sales figures for their games except them, and secondly that you are critisizing them for not doing things in the way you think it should work - when they are doing things in the way they know works as they are the ones actually running a business from it.

I saw a discussion about the SPWAW game they have on their back catalogue that goes for about 80 bucks I think - which to me, for a game that doesnt run natively under anything newer than XP and  has a max resolution of 800 x 600  is bizarre, but they still sell it at that price. My only presumption can be is thats because yes, they do still sell this stuff - though personally I agree I cant see how - but they obviously must do .

I think part of it is that the wargame market has a limited pool of content. Essentially we are all big kids to some extent so the majority, even if they dont buy on release, will get round to it at some point as we exhaust other content.

I have most matrix games and some of it I have to be honest I bought "just to take a look at it" - not necessarily because it was an auto buy like anything combat mission related would be. Essentially that is what battlefront say aswell, whereas most business models for games is one of a massive buy on release day then wait a while and start discounting - essentially wargames hold their price primarily because they are not subject to the "next big thing" sales situation like say a far cry 3 is. Its a different business model entirely.

[FlickJax]

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Not sure I get the logic of the age of the game thing in it being cheaper ? I am not sure I understand why it should be cheaper for you just because you didnt buy it at release ? Its still the same game it was when it released so I dont get that as the sole criterea for you expecting to see it cheaper ?.  Other games in other genres get sold cheaper not as some kind of atruistic reward from the publisher for the buyers patience but as attempt to sell to those who may pick it up on a whim or wouldnt have bought it in the first place. They only get sold cheaper because that model works for large volume sales operations. Its patently a model that will never work for niche wargame products as they operate with a ceiling of buyers to start with and then further limited by particular preferences in period or conflict for wargamers.

Not bitching at you, honestly  - just dispute your reasoning about age being an automatic qualifier for a price reduction and the fact you are applying a business model that doesnt work in this market. Sure - they may pick up a few more sales if they halve the price but it is never going to be a steam sale type argument where they may sell a few hundred thousand more with one of their ridiculous price points. I remain to be convinced that model ever works in the wargaming market to the extent some people seem to beleive it would.

But are they actually selling ANY copies of old catalog products at those high prices? Anyone who is buying them waits until the Christmas sale and buys them at a discount. So how are they ahead by keeping the price points ratcheted up to where they were when the game released 8 years back?

I'm not saying it makes sense to sell them for $5, but a drop from $50-$60 to something more like $30 might mean a few people jump in. And that beats nobody buying it at all.

Well I know, but thats essentially my point really, ie you dont know if it works, its only a presumption, seemingly logical I agree, on your part. My belief is they sell 80% of the games they are going to sell within a couple of weeks of its release, the rest are just trickle sales and the difference between those trickle sales at one price or another is negligible. As far as I can tell with regard to matrix they do have sales at various points where reductions are given.

Essentially my point goes back to the  fact no one knows the sales figures for their games except them, and secondly that you are critisizing them for not doing things in the way you think it should work - when they are doing things in the way they know works as they are the ones actually running a business from it.

I saw a discussion about the SPWAW game they have on their back catalogue that goes for about 80 bucks I think - which to me, for a game that doesnt run natively under anything newer than XP and  has a max resolution of 800 x 600  is bizarre, but they still sell it at that price. My only presumption can be is thats because yes, they do still sell this stuff - though personally I agree I cant see how - but they obviously must do .

I think part of it is that the wargame market has a limited pool of content. Essentially we are all big kids to some extent so the majority, even if they dont buy on release, will get round to it at some point as we exhaust other content.

I have most matrix games and some of it I have to be honest I bought "just to take a look at it" - not necessarily because it was an auto buy like anything combat mission related would be. Essentially that is what battlefront say aswell, whereas most business models for games is one of a massive buy on release day then wait a while and start discounting - essentially wargames hold their price primarily because they are not subject to the "next big thing" sales situation like say a far cry 3 is. Its a different business model entirely.

Still don't agree I believe the wargame market could grow; it's not just us oldies I was buying wargames when I was 12. It is the wrong mindset to just say it's niche so we cannot sell to larger audiences.

Warhammer and Warhammer 40000 are doing better than ever, yes they are not traditional wargames but it is not a massive jump from this genre to wargames.

May be the Matrix model is damaging the community not preserving it? I do Matrix games but mainly in the xmas sales.

[Grimnirsson]

Warhammer and Warhammer 40000 are doing better than ever, yes they are not traditional wargames

Well, actually tabletop is traditional wargaming, hexgrid maps and counters came after playing with little soldiers on a terrain table :)

[Zulu1966]

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Not sure I get the logic of the age of the game thing in it being cheaper ? I am not sure I understand why it should be cheaper for you just because you didnt buy it at release ? Its still the same game it was when it released so I dont get that as the sole criterea for you expecting to see it cheaper ?.  Other games in other genres get sold cheaper not as some kind of atruistic reward from the publisher for the buyers patience but as attempt to sell to those who may pick it up on a whim or wouldnt have bought it in the first place. They only get sold cheaper because that model works for large volume sales operations. Its patently a model that will never work for niche wargame products as they operate with a ceiling of buyers to start with and then further limited by particular preferences in period or conflict for wargamers.

Not bitching at you, honestly  - just dispute your reasoning about age being an automatic qualifier for a price reduction and the fact you are applying a business model that doesnt work in this market. Sure - they may pick up a few more sales if they halve the price but it is never going to be a steam sale type argument where they may sell a few hundred thousand more with one of their ridiculous price points. I remain to be convinced that model ever works in the wargaming market to the extent some people seem to beleive it would.

But are they actually selling ANY copies of old catalog products at those high prices? Anyone who is buying them waits until the Christmas sale and buys them at a discount. So how are they ahead by keeping the price points ratcheted up to where they were when the game released 8 years back?

I'm not saying it makes sense to sell them for $5, but a drop from $50-$60 to something more like $30 might mean a few people jump in. And that beats nobody buying it at all.

Well I know, but thats essentially my point really, ie you dont know if it works, its only a presumption, seemingly logical I agree, on your part. My belief is they sell 80% of the games they are going to sell within a couple of weeks of its release, the rest are just trickle sales and the difference between those trickle sales at one price or another is negligible. As far as I can tell with regard to matrix they do have sales at various points where reductions are given.

Essentially my point goes back to the  fact no one knows the sales figures for their games except them, and secondly that you are critisizing them for not doing things in the way you think it should work - when they are doing things in the way they know works as they are the ones actually running a business from it.

I saw a discussion about the SPWAW game they have on their back catalogue that goes for about 80 bucks I think - which to me, for a game that doesnt run natively under anything newer than XP and  has a max resolution of 800 x 600  is bizarre, but they still sell it at that price. My only presumption can be is thats because yes, they do still sell this stuff - though personally I agree I cant see how - but they obviously must do .

I think part of it is that the wargame market has a limited pool of content. Essentially we are all big kids to some extent so the majority, even if they dont buy on release, will get round to it at some point as we exhaust other content.

I have most matrix games and some of it I have to be honest I bought "just to take a look at it" - not necessarily because it was an auto buy like anything combat mission related would be. Essentially that is what battlefront say aswell, whereas most business models for games is one of a massive buy on release day then wait a while and start discounting - essentially wargames hold their price primarily because they are not subject to the "next big thing" sales situation like say a far cry 3 is. Its a different business model entirely.

Still don't agree I believe the wargame market could grow; it's not just us oldies I was buying wargames when I was 12. It is the wrong mindset to just say it's niche so we cannot sell to larger audiences.

Warhammer and Warhammer 40000 are doing better than ever, yes they are not traditional wargames but it is not a massive jump from this genre to wargames.

May be the Matrix model is damaging the community not preserving it? I do Matrix games but mainly in the xmas sales.

Fine, I hope it is me thats wrong not you. But I must say I think its also the case that Warhammer IS a massive jump to historical wargaming, there is a reason its a science fiction / fantasy hybrid series that supports games workshop and not one on the napoleonic wars or even WWII which has got to be our most "popular war".

[JudgeDredd]

My own TRUE personal story

I was never into wargames on the PC. Always preferring first person shooters or simulations.

Then I came across Red Devils Over Arnhem in Electronic Boutique for something daft like £3.99.

I picked it up and played it. Didn't really enjoy it initially because I didn't know about the genre. Then I found Matrix Games...and my wargaming experience took off.

So - from my perspective, that dirt cheap game created a wargamer.

And THAT is my problem when I hear about this "niche" market. I just get the sense they think there are no new wargamers out there and that they are selling to existing wargamers.

I agree totally with the post before (from whomever) that wargaming will remain niche when they keep their prices high. And I'm specifically talking about older games. THOSE are the games they can throw out on the basis that current wargamers are likely not going to buy them if they haven't already and the only way to get revenue...and NOT just from those older games...is to hook new gamers in. And you'll only really grab new gamers by providing them something that they can take a punt on without thinking they'll lose a lot from not enjoying that experience.

There's more than one reason why the wargaming market is niche - and ONE of those reasons is the publishers are so short sighted it stays niche.

If older games are reduced, they could bring in a very small amount of revenue from that game - but they may well, as in my case, bring in revenue for other games.

When I found RDOA as I said I was not interested in the genre. After finding it and getting help from the Matrix site on how to play and what I was doing, I bought a considerable amount of games from Matrix.

I haven't personally been to Matrix for quite some time, their business model (given my own experience) is non sensicle and their catalogue hasn't appealed to me for some time.

I'm not about to cut off my nose to spite my face - I'll buy LnL Heroes of Stalingrad on release...but I haven't been interested nor bought a game from them for quite some time now.

You can't encourage new people to a new genre of game by selling at full price or likely even half price - there needs to be a hook.

Sometimes I wonder if it's not self gratifying to keep the market niche?

[spelk]

Now I've been inspired to do the personal story thing...

I'm not from a wargamer background, I haven't played loads of board game chit shufflers, I have dabbled in wargames but found them more or less impenetrable for many years. Almost a guilty pleasure, picking up one or two titles (General Lee, Age of Rifles, Microprose stuff), trying to grok them and then failing and just admiring them from a distance. I slipped into RPG's and roleplaying and MMO's for a long time.

It wasn't until I began to lounge in the strategy world, that my fascination with history and wargaming started to twinkle again. Why spend your life, learning Lore from made up worlds, fighting heroic battles with elves, dwarves and orcs, when you can explore history and real peoples lives, real heroes in gaming. Suddenly my admiration for RPG heroes, turned into real life heroes in the past.

So, I went to wargamer.com, I fumbled around with a few Matrix titles, met many of you here, and started my journey, to stick my foot into the door of proper wargaming, and to try and shine the light from within out to many people for whom the genre is often an impenetrable hobby. And so sugarfreegamer.com was born. Turning my attention to AAR's, to explain not only the mechanics and history behind the games, but also the thought processes at play, and most importantly from a layman's perspective.

Wargaming is such a fascinating arena to explore, and we seem to have a devoted set of people who dedicate their lives to re-enacting, replaying historical events and TAKING PART IN IT! Touching History. Learning from play. The rest of the gaming world deserves to see the beauty within! It shouldn't be a locked club house, where you have to take years and years worth of exams to get in. There should be a way into it. The scene deserves new players and their funds and enthusiasm! It deserves new titles, new designers, evolution.

Look at how Unity of Command has lit up the strategy gaming world! This "simple" game, with an accessible interface and highly polished production values has made proper wargaming not only available to the masses, it's actually providing them with a challenge and a reason to delve deeper into the hobby. Opening the market, pricing titles competitively and making them accessible should be the way to grow the hobby, surely? Locking these games up, and hunkering down, maintaining their value over the years in the hope that some dedicated wargamers will fork out new prices for old titles seems a bit short sighted to me. But then I'm no salesman. I'm a dreamer. Looking for real world heroes.

[Zulu1966]

Now I've been inspired to do the personal story thing...

I'm not from a wargamer background, I haven't played loads of board game chit shufflers, I have dabbled in wargames but found them more or less impenetrable for many years. Almost a guilty pleasure, picking up one or two titles (General Lee, Age of Rifles, Microprose stuff), trying to grok them and then failing and just admiring them from a distance. I slipped into RPG's and roleplaying and MMO's for a long time.

It wasn't until I began to lounge in the strategy world, that my fascination with history and wargaming started to twinkle again. Why spend your life, learning Lore from made up worlds, fighting heroic battles with elves, dwarves and orcs, when you can explore history and real peoples lives, real heroes in gaming. Suddenly my admiration for RPG heroes, turned into real life heroes in the past.

So, I went to wargamer.com, I fumbled around with a few Matrix titles, met many of you here, and started my journey, to stick my foot into the door of proper wargaming, and to try and shine the light from within out to many people for whom the genre is often an impenetrable hobby. And so sugarfreegamer.com was born. Turning my attention to AAR's, to explain not only the mechanics and history behind the games, but also the thought processes at play, and most importantly from a layman's perspective.

Wargaming is such a fascinating arena to explore, and we seem to have a devoted set of people who dedicate their lives to re-enacting, replaying historical events and TAKING PART IN IT! Touching History. Learning from play. The rest of the gaming world deserves to see the beauty within! It shouldn't be a locked club house, where you have to take years and years worth of exams to get in. There should be a way into it. The scene deserves new players and their funds and enthusiasm! It deserves new titles, new designers, evolution.

Look at how Unity of Command has lit up the strategy gaming world! This "simple" game, with an accessible interface and highly polished production values has made proper wargaming not only available to the masses, it's actually providing them with a challenge and a reason to delve deeper into the hobby. Opening the market, pricing titles competitively and making them accessible should be the way to grow the hobby, surely? Locking these games up, and hunkering down, maintaining their value over the years in the hope that some dedicated wargamers will fork out new prices for old titles seems a bit short sighted to me. But then I'm no salesman. I'm a dreamer. Looking for real world heroes.

Which is good to hear - but I wonder how much you are the exception rather than the rule. As with Judges story above - its taking one or two personal experiences and extrapolating that across the whole gaming world. I would (I think) like to see wargaming as a much bigger genre. I am not sure how much pricing policy is a bar to this world or whether its merely a lack of coverage or lack of interest.

Unity of Command is a good example - but I make the point that you are again speaking from a position of ignorance (meant in a nice way) - in that you dont know what the sales figures for unity were. One of the few wargames to make it to steam (which I still am not sure how they did that as they didnt go via greenlight as far as  I know) sure - and they seem to be doing ok but I have no idea what kind of sales it racked up to be in a position to say its done wonders for the guys who made it or the genre as a whole.

One thing that is a bar to entry I think is the lack of info on sales - maybe if more devs had an idea of the return on what can be a heavy investment in time and resources then there would be a wider entry into the market and a wider variety in the quality and nature of the games - and maybe then the price.

I do get judges point - but I think the risks and mathematics are different. Discounting can be a valuable tool in a market of 500,000 sales. Doscounting in a market of 10,000 could be a disaster if you use up your sales base in one reduction. I agree some of the matrix stuff could see a reduction.

I fully agree with the reasons you give as to why wargaming is a fascinating hobby - its why I play the games myself - what I am not sure of is the size of the pool of people who would think the same way.

More specifically - something like XCOM or the CIV games. To me those are games that fit the "mindset " of a wargamer - what I dont know is what it takes for someone to cross over to a more detailed and historically accurate game.

Again - look at shenendoah studios who are hiring a couple of extra programmers and an artist. Presumably thats on the back of their bulge iPad game so that seemingly did well enough to prompt that for what could be said to be an outside the norm platform and by definition cheaper game because it was mobile - so may be the market even if just at the simpler end  does have some growth potential.

[JudgeDredd]

I really don't get it.

So the pricing thing is about "getting into it". Apparently when you buy something you invest more time into it...and the more you pay the more you are likely to invest time in it

That's a FAIL...I bought WitE and whilst I always want to play it, I just never get round to giving it the time.

So Matrix are asking newbies to the genre by asking them to pay a fair amount of money for a game they might not enjoy. Well...perhaps they'll do what perhaps alot of newbies to the genre do - walk away rather than take a punt on a game. But hold on...Ian is also saying that some games don't suit (PoN being one) a demo. So not only are they scaring away the guy who wants to try the genre by pricing old titles at not such a "take a punt" price, but they're also saying we're not giving you a demo to see if you like it. Even though the demo may entice them in.

Seems to me wargaming is niche because there are people out there that want it to stay niche.

Sorry. I don't get it. If you are going to charge full price for older titles, then give a bloody demo so someone thinking about giving you a ridiculous amount of money for a very old game can decide whether it fits the bill or not.

By the way - my statement isn't specifically about PoN or it's price. I have it and actually like the AGEoD games and was sad to hear of their joining up with Paradox. I hope Matrix do right by them

My "general" beef is with the policy...charge ridiculous price for old games but don't provide demo's ergo scaring away new customers. I've already given my own story and I've enjoyed wargaming ever since finding that bargain bucket item. I don't like this self gratifying view on a niche market. It doesn't have to stay niche - but it will if you don't entice new people to it and rely on your existing clientelle

They are OLD games. Use them to entice people to the genre and make money from your newer stuff. And for the love of god, put demo's out. I know they cost money and time...but what happened to speculating to accumulate?

[Zulu1966]

Seems to me wargaming is niche because there are people out there that want it to stay niche.

Ahh ... maybe thats the crux of the matter. Seems to me sales figures are so closely guarded to avoid competition. As I say - if more knew what to expect going in then maybe there would be more going in. Demos are good tools but I sometimes think they CAN be counter productive - ie they have sometimes convinced me NOT to buy a game I might otherwise had taken a punt on if one werent available.

[Huw the Poo]

ie they have sometimes convinced me NOT to buy a game I might otherwise had taken a punt on if one werent available.

No honest developer should want someone to buy a game they won't enjoy.