Matrix Games, Whatever Are You Thinking?

[JudgeDredd]

I totally agree they can be counter productive - but only if they are not done properly. If done right, they are a great tool for evaluation.

As for Pon - they are saying there wouldn't be a demo because demo's are counter producttive - and yet there IS a demo for PoN. So the developer thought it would be a good idea.

Regardless...you are absolutely right - if a demo is created in a way that doesn't help someone then it is counter productive. Oh - and it's also counter productive because what you are actually doing is trusting someone to try the demo and make up their mind to buy the product. God forbid they try the demo and decide it's not for them...then Matrix (or any other publishing company for that matter) wouldn't get the money the poor perzson laid out to buy it because they thought it sounded good from reviews, AAR's and yes men on the forums.

So

Provide a demo, there's a chance someone won't buy the game because a) they decide it's not their thing or b) they can't be arsed diving into it or c) the demo is poor and all those options mean 0 bucks for the publisher
OR
Don't provide a demo and let people just make a choice on whether they are likely to waste their money or not.

I know which one fits the business model. I mean - how could any company in their right mind EVER trust a gamer (wargamer or otherwise) to make a decision based on a free cut down version of the game? I mean - they haven't paid anything for it and therefore will not invest enough time to decide whether they like it or not - so they might not buy!

And besides - we can always use the "people invest time in something they have to pay more for" statement.

As I said - I paid what...£60/£70/£80 (can't remember after VAT) for WitE and it's sat on my hard drive begging me to play. That statement, whilst valid in some circumstances, is not valid in all. Who's to say to what proportion it's true or not. But it's certainly not true in my case and that makes me question it.

[republic]

It would be nice if price tapered down once sales slacked off after a few years.  However it isn't just Matrix, I'd like to buy War Over Vietnam from HPS but it is still $50.

It wouldn't have to be $5 steam sale prices, just a 50% cut would be nice.  Or they could offer very old and low selling games as freebies to people who buy new games.  Buy New Game X and get Crown of Glory (or game 4+ years old) for free.

[MIGMaster]

I'd like to buy War Over Vietnam from HPS but it is still $50.

+1

[Al]

It would be nice if price tapered down once sales slacked off after a few years.  However it isn't just Matrix, I'd like to buy War Over Vietnam from HPS but it is still $50.

$29.99 at NWS

[MIGMaster]

Thanks Al ! :D

[Arctic Blast]

It would be nice if price tapered down once sales slacked off after a few years.  However it isn't just Matrix, I'd like to buy War Over Vietnam from HPS but it is still $50.

It wouldn't have to be $5 steam sale prices, just a 50% cut would be nice.  Or they could offer very old and low selling games as freebies to people who buy new games.  Buy New Game X and get Crown of Glory (or game 4+ years old) for free.

It would be nice to see any new thinking like this at all.

Another example : I think it's great that a complete pack of Panzer Corps is being put together. But why on Earth did that idea apparently not occur to anyone for a game like Fields of Glory?

Or (using Fields of Glory as the example again) : Frozen Synapse is set up to primarily sell as a multiplayer title. So buying it gets you two copies of the game. Wouldn't something like THAT have made sense for Fields of Glory? Or go with something like a 4-pack model? Now you have 2 people playing it. Kinda figures that if they like it, and Player A buys a DLC pack, you're probably also going to sell said DLC pack to player B.

I agree completely with what JD said above : wargaming seems to be niche at least in part because everyone goes in to it thinking of it as a niche. New thinking and new ideas are not bad things, but you wouldn't know that if you were going by the moves (or lack thereof) made by wargaming companies. Hell, look at the state of board wargames vs. computer wargames. While the board segment keep coming up with new ideas, their computer brethren just keep stagnating in a pool of decrepit UI designs, horrendous visuals and no originality...all basically just because that's how it has always been.

[Bismarck]

I would point out that Legion Gold PC is now only $9.99 with a discount on Chariots of War. Of course the lower price is the equal of the iPad version.

[weateallthepies]

As someone fairly new to pc wargaming, the prices of these old games simply stops me buying them. There are quite a few I'm interested in, but when I can go and buy a brand new boxed board wargame, that weighs a ton, and has been shipped halfway round the world for less money than a pc game that has been released for years, then I'll just go with a boardgame.

The few pc wargames I own, are ones I've picked up in Steam sales, and the like, or found cheap in shops. I might buy something new and full price when I have some cash, but those old games at full price will never tempt me to part with money.

Maybe some sort of group buying would work for the market. Take some old games, promise to sell them at X price if Y number of people sign up to buy? It's becoming a common way of purchasing things, and tends to gain momentum, and free advertising from those who want it to succeed.

Maybe even a preorder P500 type system for new games would work to ensure games got off to a good start.

I'll continue to hunt for bargains.

[Nefaro]

As someone fairly new to pc wargaming, the prices of these old games simply stops me buying them.

Yeah.  It even stops us old timers from doing so, too.

This reinforces whomever pointed out some people evidentally want the niche market to remain niche.   A discounted sale is still better than no sale at all.

[JudgeDredd]

Sorry - I rarely do this - but I thought this was worth repeating to prove my point - that some in the market seem fixated on the term "niche" and keeping wargaming there!

This was posted on a thread re pricing on Matrix about PoN (my bold)

...
These detailed games are never going to sell to a mass market, but they do make money. They have their niche and this is where they need to stay.
...

[Ubercat]

Iain also said

...
The tail is much much longer on these games and 2-5 years on you can still get significant revenues if you keep faith, support them and don't heavily discount.
...

As long as games are still supported, he sort of has a point. With all the complaints I've seen about Matrix lack of support for older titles, I wonder how well they're following their own model?

[Bison]

I think unfortunately there is some discussion that can be had as to how much support for older titles that Slitherine/Matrix provide for the premium prices they ask for their games.  *I don't mind paying a premium to support developers whose games I enjoy and want to see continue to make games.  That is not the issue.*

John Tiller is the gold standard as far as I'm concerned.  There are games released 10 years ago that still receive patches/updates.

[JudgeDredd]

Could be true.

On the other hand - no-one "takes a punt" on a £20 game - especially and old game - with a "not so appealing" interface. People take punts on games at a couple of pounds or maybe a deep sea diver - possibly even a tenner.

Just sayin' - it's hard to entice new blood into the market when the current crop of gamers can get a nice new shiny FPS for the same price.

You and I know the longevity of such games pales in comparison...but I'm talking specifically about getting new blood into the genre - what ARE they doing to get new blood into the genre? By keeping the price of old games high - not enough

So like it or not - they and their mindset are keeping the market niche. By reducing the price of the games, they may not encourage a huge amount of people to the genre - but they are likely to reduce that chance with their current model.

I guess in a few years, over time, we'll find out if they relied too heavily on their current crop of gamers or not.

And I say again - I love AGEoD games - and would buy them at the drop of a hat - AND pay £25-£30 for them - but these publishers NEED to entice new gamers to the genre - and I can't see them doing that charging new dollar for old hat.

The arguments put across by Iain were TOTALLY false in my case.

He stated people invest more in a product they pay more for - and I proved that wrong with Command Ops:BftB (which I bought mainly because they were going to convert HTTR (which they did and I bought) and also because I love the style of game) which I've hardly touched and WitE - which I have hardly touched. Both of which cost me over £60.

He also said selling things cheap achieves nothing (the opposite of the above) and that also is false. As I stated above I bought Red Devils Over Arnhem for a snip in a store, played it, got help, played it some more and liked it. MORE THAN THAT - I found Matrix website and bought considerably more games from them.

He also stated demo's do more harm than good. That is false. BAD demos do more harm than good. Good demos allow choice. By removing a demo option, they are enticing the customer to buy something they might not like rather than show some "honesty" by allowing the customer to try it and see if it's what they're looking for. On one hand (no demo) they are likely to get gamers to buy - on the other (a demo) they are likely to get some of those gamers who might take a punt on it to try it and actually decide not to buy it. And it's disingenuous of him to suggest that gamers would drop something so quickly - especially when we're talking about his hard core customers.

So selling older games cheap DOES get new blood. I obviously can't prove the scale of that - but I am actual proof that it does.

[Grimnirsson]

He also stated demo's do more harm than good. That is false.

Yes, it is false. I see that on XBL, all arcade games have a demo there and there are demos for most of the retail games as well...it works :)

[Bismarck]

He also stated demo's do more harm than good. That is false.

Yes, it is false. I see that on XBL, all arcade games have a demo there and there are demos for most of the retail games as well...it works :)

Yeah, I've spoken against demos in the past but companies have gotten the range. They are now quite good.