Massive Chalice and gay marriages

[undercovergeek]

Ok............. here goes - theres a big, quite heated debate in the comments section of the latest Massive Chalice news release. It would seem whilst the dev team beavered away and covered all the angles, the kickstarter crowd mentioned the absence of a gay marriage possibility. The original news feed on the game is its a CK II-ish dynastic heroes game, TBS game and therefore the bloodline of your heroes is passed through the ages and you build the story that way. The new news is that the devs were quite taken aback that they never thought of that option and are bending to the will of the kickstarter crowd and implementing a gay marriage possibility, with the chance to adopt/foster or simply magic babies into existence been part of the 'gay kingdoms' options........... and it hasnt gone done too well.

As i see it the vast majority of the objections are simply it doesnt/shouldnt belong in a game where blood line and lineage is a corner stone of the development of your empire. There are a few gay members who are upset that this is homophobia and why shouldnt they be represented in a game.

Im not homophobic, im not anti-gay, and for me its mainly a matter of 'meh', put it in the game if you want (the devs have said itll be an option, switchable on or off) but for some reason i just dont think it belongs in a game

CKII does it without any flashy 'wooo were adopting gay marriage as an option' very simply - you or your wife are gay - you have a negative modifier to the chance of having children, but for some reason Massive Chalice and its devs seem to have made an issue out of it that could have been so much less trouble

[LongBlade]

Unfortunately ignorance and intolerance are ugly no matter where you see it.

[Jarhead0331]

Why stop at gay marriage?  What about interracial marriage?  What about marriage between cats and dogs?  Let's just placate every potential special interest group for the sake of political correctness.  Heck, we wouldn't want to offend anybody by standing up for morality.

[PanzersEast]

Let's see... how many gay marriages in 1066 -- 0 -- ..... plus your point above.   Let's alter history to bend towards a certain crowds leaning.... yea that makes sense.


PE

[undercovergeek]

Unfortunately ignorance and intolerance are ugly no matter where you see it.

and i think thats where it all gets a bit nasty...... the gamers dont want it because it doesnt make any sense for a ancestorial(!?) game, but its too easy for the 'pro gay' people to jump up and shout 'HOMOPHOBE' - theyre not, im not - it just doesnt make sense in the game

i think the trouble i have with it is it seems like an agenda has been pushed onto the dev who now have to write new code - for CKII they didnt discuss it, they didnt want merit for partially adressing it, they didnt ask, it was simply this is how it works, whereas the devs here have been 'bullied' into it by having to recognise they didnt consider it in the first place. Should they have had the courage to say - we didnt discuss it because we're not having it? are they bending to the will of a kickstarter crowd because when youre asking for money you dont want to upset anyone?

[PanzersEast]

Unfortunately ignorance and intolerance are ugly no matter where you see it.

and i think thats where it all gets a bit nasty...... the gamers dont want it because it doesnt make any sense for a ancestorial(!?) game, but its too easy for the 'pro gay' people to jump up and shout 'HOMOPHOBE' - theyre not, im not - it just doesnt make sense in the game

i think the trouble i have with it is it seems like an agenda has been pushed onto the dev who now have to write new code - for CKII they didnt discuss it, they didnt want merit for partially adressing it, they didnt ask, it was simply this is how it works, whereas the devs here have been 'bullied' into it by having to recognise they didnt consider it in the first place. Should they have had the courage to say - we didnt discuss it because we're not having it? are they bending to the will of a kickstarter crowd because when youre asking for money you dont want to upset anyone?

+1

[jomni]

The point is... gay marriage = game over (at least in the game).
Or allow gay marriage, then you produce offspring from concubines / courtesans.

[LongBlade]

The point is... gay marriage = game over (at least in the game).
Or allow gay marriage, then you produce offspring from concubines / courtesans.

I'm not sure how the issue was handled at the time (Dr. SoM would be our authority there) but what about a chance of discovery? Let's say the king is gay and doesn't sleep with his queen.

That could set up some very interesting gameplay possibilities.

In a similar fashion to Henry VIII he could blame the woman and go through a cycle of them never creating offspring but always one step ahead of church authorities.

A well-placed courtesan could either with the king's approval or without it impregnate the queen.

The court could turn against him and apply whatever religious fallout that might or might not apply.

Depending on the popularity of the king a new era of acceptance could be ushered in.

It *could* work. Whether the devs are bright enough to work through those possibilities (or have the money/resources to make it happen) is a different issue.

[undercovergeek]

This is the new news, sorry for wall of text. Im with you LB, but those kind of solutions dont seem to have appeased the pro-gay crowd who want fostering and adoption. Another consideration would be if youre going to go down this route and allow a gay marriage, surely (and if thats your thing, thats your thing) then a gay player is simply going to keep clicking - 'make heir gay' or whatever mechanism will be available, and spawn an entire gay nobility with 'borrowed children' - its just a bit....odd

In Double Fine's Massive Chalice, heroes follow one of (videogame) life's most well-worn paths: fight demons, fight demons, fight demons. But these heroes age, and their blood slowly ceases its boiling. They grow old and begin to seek out someone else to warm their weary bones. Also, to birth and raise the most powerful combat babies in all the realm because, you know, demons. Still, it's a rather traditionally minded system at heart, so I had to ask: where do gay couples enter the picture, if at all? Massive Chalice lead Brad Muir was honest: that issue totally slipped his mind... at first. But then Kickstarter backers swooped in to save the day. Hurrah! It is, however, an ending that Muir doesn't think would've been quite so happy had a traditional publisher been in the mix.

To hear Brad Muir tell it, Tim Schafer makes worlds first and systems second. Muir, meanwhile, does it the other way around. He just makes things work, then he worries about the details.

He acknowledges, however, that maybe this time around, he should've worried about the details a teensy bit sooner.

"We did not talk about gay marriage until we launched the Kickstarter,"

"We did not talk about [the possibility of gay marriage] until we launched the Kickstarter," he tells RPS. "We were so focused on pure pragmatic mechanics and how it would work and coupling and all these things that we hadn't [considered it]. That was something I got kinda blindsided by. That was really unfortunate. It kinda makes me feel shitty that it's not something I'd thought of. I think it's sort of hetero privilege that I didn't see it coming."

It's not that Muir doesn't want his game to embrace people of all codes, creeds, and backgrounds, either. He just made a mistake. But then, that's why Double Fine opted to bring the idea of Massive Chalice straight to Kickstarter instead of going with a stretch goal and prototype-oriented "pre-order model": because they know they're not perfect.

"One of the cool things is we have the opportunity to think about it and address it because we brought it to the community," says Muir, suddenly grinning. "We brought it to a broader group of people, and then there were some people who brought it up and wanted to talk about it. There's a raging thread on our forums."

So hurrah, hugs and well-muscled sexytimes for all. This, Muir figures, is the optimal outcome. Everybody wins, and then they all get married. But what would've happened if Double Fine hadn't fulfilled the conditions to unlock real life's good ending? The contagious enthusiasm in Muir's voice wilts a bit as he explains:

"If we had gone with a publisher on this, I really think [it wouldn't have ended well]. Because you sign the deal, you go underground, you start working on the game, you don't talk to the community or anybody, and you get so focused on all these other aspects of the game. Just making it work – and all the tactical combat and mechanical things. We might just overlook something like same-sex coupling all the way until we announce the game. And then people say, 'Hey, what about gay marriage?' And we're like, 'Fuck,' because we've already worked on it for more than a year."

"If somebody did think about it during that whole thing, they would've probably just killed it because it is such a controversial issue. They'd probably not want to have it associated with the game at all. And then they'd give me a PR company line that I'd have to tell in every interview, and it'd be super, super shitty. And then any gay gamers who are coming to the game and playing it and wanting to see themselves represented would just be really disappointed."

Either way, no bueno. Fortunately, Double Fine was able to reconsider their systems ages before ever implementing them, and the resulting discussion's given rise to some rather interesting ideas.

"We've been talking about ways to actually incorporate gay marriage," Muir continues. "One of the suggestions was to allow couples – male/female or otherwise - to contribute to the good of the realm via means other than childbirth. So couples could raise children or research technology. That's one interesting way to handle it. And then if you couple it with the ability to foster children, I think that's a way you could have same-sex couples in the game. And it's optional. People can choose to engage it or not."

"The other option is to be less explicit about it. Maybe these aren't marriages. Maybe you're just retiring two heroes in the same keep. Because I really like it when more procedural, systemic games allow the player to kind of use their imagination a little more to fill in the gaps of what's actually happening."

Ultimately, though, Muir is keen to point out that Massive Chalice still has a long way to go. Someday, the chalice will be massive indeed, but at this point it's not even on level with Chip from Beauty and the Beast. But he's aware now. His eyes and ears are open. And while his absolute foremost goal is to make the best, most enjoyable game possible, he also wants everyone to come along for the ride.

"I don't know where we're gonna land on it," he admits, "but I will say that I want the game to be inclusive. I don't think that hurts anyone. If you as a gamer feel like you're more represented in this thing, that's only gonna deepen your personal story. I really like emergent story stuff, and I think that only stands to improve emotional connections to these heroes. That's only gonna be a good thing."

Check back soon for the full interview, in which we discuss plans for everything from ground-level combat to Civilization-style multi-generational mechanics, emergent game systems, whether or not Double Fine's truly done with publishers, the potential dishonesty of rooting a Kickstarter in ideas instead of confirmed features, Muir's frightening inability to stop almost killing himself, and ska music. 

[Sir Slash]

I think not wanting gay characters forced on us in our games doesn't make one ignorant or intolerant. I play games to get away from all the big-mouthed, radical crusaders of whatever type and won't buy or play any game that requires me to pass a polictically correct test of any kind. I supposed the only fair solution is to have 2 versions of the game, a strait and a gay version. Let me know how well the gay version sells.

[TheCommandTent]

... sigh ... yet another group screaming tolerance, bullying their position into the forefront and then not "tolerating" the opposing viewpoint.  Like Sir Slash said I go to games to escape the real world.

[son_of_montfort]

The point is... gay marriage = game over (at least in the game).
Or allow gay marriage, then you produce offspring from concubines / courtesans.

I'm not sure how the issue was handled at the time (Dr. SoM would be our authority there) but what about a chance of discovery? Let's say the king is gay and doesn't sleep with his queen.

There are several suspected gay relationships in the middle ages. Many thought that Edward II was homosexual and one of the French kings, I can't remember which, was hinted at having an interest in another crusader. But Edward II had several children, so that was an expectation that needed to be fulfilled. Today we tend to think about sexuality as a binary - gay/straight - but historically that has not been the case. It is quite common to see lots of "amorous" (and that should not be always thought of as sexual) relationships between men, particularly is heavily militaristic and honor-based societies, who also still had sexual relations with women (Sparta is a great example, you had male relationships and female wives). You have to also remember than most princes and kings did not choose their wives, so they may have felt more affection toward their companions than to this (possibly ugly or unattractive) stranger they were saddled with (Louis VII and Eleanor of Aquitaine are a good example of this issue). The ides of the "ward" or the "protege" pops up a lot in the middle ages (and it would not scandalize any medieval person to see two men who were very close).

Now gay marriage was right out, obviously. And if you were caught in a sexual relationship with the same sex in the Middle Ages, that was extremely problematic (as in, possibility of getting executed problematic). The more powerful you are, the better chance you have to "brush it under a rug," but lower-class people were burned at the stake or tortured. Even the most powerful were not immune - remember that the Templars were, in part, brought down under charges of "sodomy."

The problems I see with this game are that a dynastic sim is going to have to get strange to accommodate this. What, are you going to have some wizard make a spell to allow men to have children together? Also, the notion of "marriage" in the middle ages is way different than today - arranged marriages, concubines, witnesses, etc. all of that makes applying modern ideas difficult.

Why stop at gay marriage?  What about interracial marriage?  What about marriage between cats and dogs?  Let's just placate every potential special interest group for the sake of political correctness.  Heck, we wouldn't want to offend anybody by standing up for morality.

This is, IMHO, a poor line of argument. Homosexual marriages do not compare to man-animal sexual relations - one is two, consenting, adult humans and the other is between a human and a non-consenting (by legal and philosophical definitions, animals cannot consent), non-sentient, animal. Slippery slope arguments are almost always fallacious and incorrect, because we CAN and DO draw a line (we are rational beings). Besides, whose "morality" are we standing up for here? The Judeo-Christian one, which looks to a book that says it is absolutely acceptable to have slaves, beat your wive/s, have multiple wives, and have concubines? Not everyone agrees with that.

I think not wanting gay characters forced on us in our games doesn't make one ignorant or intolerant. I play games to get away from all the big-mouthed, radical crusaders of whatever type and won't buy or play any game that requires me to pass a polictically correct test of any kind. I supposed the only fair solution is to have 2 versions of the game, a strait and a gay version. Let me know how well the gay version sells.

I don't think you HAVE to be gay in the game. So if you don't want to do it, don't do it. Just like in Mass Effect or similar games, you only go down that path if you choose to do so. FWIW, Crusader Kings did, in fact, force you to deal with homosexual characters. But that was part of the challenge.

But this, in Massive Chalice, seems like a needless design distraction and does not fit well with the game's core principles.

[undercovergeek]

FWIW, Crusader Kings did, in fact, force you to deal with homosexual characters. But that was part of the challenge.

but very niftily just let it happen without sounding the trumpets of post modernism and pro gay banner waving

The devs of chalice are going to have to change elements of their core game to accommodate this, and i think thats what annoys me - id just rather see a button that says 'make king gay?' than have to have a debate about it, and i wish in todays world it would be OK for them to say 'no, were not doing it'

and there maybe a few, but what happens to the genuine homophobes that get in touch after pledging and now demand their money back?

[son_of_montfort]

Actually, CK made it an undesirable trait, which likely ruffled a few feathers. So far, I don't recall seeing homosexuality in CKII, but I might just not have noticed it under all the millions of modifiers they have.

I have been considering how Divinity: Dragon Commander is going to handle gay marriage. The idea of that game (coming next month by Larian studios) is that you are a Dragon lord who has to rule his nation, made up of several races - Undead, Dwarves, Gnomes, Lizardmen, and Elves. They bring forward to you propositions that you have to deal with - the Elves, being the natural liberals, bring forward a "same-sex" union proposition. You have to decide what to do, allowing it will irritate the Conservative and Religious Undead, disallowing it will irritate the Elves and the libertarian Lizardmen.

But when it comes to the in-game marriage, the player character can only be male and can only marry princesses from each race. No other choice. Did that irritate women wanting to play a female role and marry princes? Probably. Did that irritate people wanting same-sex marriage? Who knows. The game HAS homosexual unions in it as an issue, but does not allow the player to take it. That is OK, IMHO, because - to do so- would require a massive mechanics and storyline change.

In Mass Effect and other games, gay pairings was just a way to set who you wanted in the "sexy-time" cut scene. Fine. But for a dynasty building sim? Hard to justify. 

Still, it won't be an issue for a majority of players who don't take that option.

[bboyer66]

 Im pro-gay marriage.

Could give a rats ass whether it is introduced into a game or not. Unless its relevant to the storyline or time period, who cares.

If I am playing say a game with Monsters, and the game doesn't have The Creature from the Black Lagoon, but they do have the Mummy, should I be pissed?

SOAP BOX:
Im sick of minorities of every type thinking that there should be equal representation of themselves when it comes to EVERYTHING. You watch TV, you would think half of America is gay (actually 4%),  25% black (12.6%),  25% Asian (4.8%) 25% Hispanic (16.4%) and 25% White (63.7%). 
Sort of like Spike Lees criticism of the movie Flags of our Fathers. There were no blacks in it he complains. Should Eastwood have added a scene on the beach just to show the very small contingent of blacks unloading munitions?  Wait, what about the Korean laborers that built the defenses on Iwo Jima, they should have their own scene as well.  Its just ridiculous what happens when political correctness trumps common sense.