eSim Games offering Time Limited Licenses

[Ssnake]

I don't really feel like I need to address this point.  I certainly never accused eSim Games of pursuing a "nefarious" course of action, or doing anything to purposely harm potential customers.  In fact, I specifically stated to the contrary. I'm not really sure where this impression came from.  Perhaps you should ask your fans at Simhq?

What can I say. You were alarmist in your first post, a bit confrontative in style, unfazed by arguments from the other side. That's fine, everybody has his right to an opinion no matter how one-sided it may be. I'd like to point out however that you reported in depth about the reactions from others at the SimHQ thread, but conveniently left out any of the arguments that I brought forward.
I don't want to say with it that you're doing this on purpose, but I daresay that there is a noticeable bias in at least your argumentation, if not perception of what was said in the discussion. The fact that you dismiss others' opinions as irrelevant fanboi chatter speaks for itself. Also, your next statement:

Regardless of what you say, I still don't see a comparison between SBPro and a subscription based service like any of the MMOs

In other words, if that's your intent or not, you signal that an attempt to discuss the matter with you is futile. You don't want to accept the argument that software maintenance may become an important issue if a software is being worked on for decades and that users must pay for it in order to make the whole concept work out. You seem to ignore the fact that the new option is something offered in addition to something with which you apparently have had no problem (and still don't, per your own words), because somehow it's important to discuss it on grounds of The Principle. I get it, you don't like time-limited license ... and you don't have to, because you can still use your CodeMeter stick now, and in years to come.

So which is it?  An attempt to aid customers from having to repurchase the software when and if they lose their codemeter, or an attempt to generate income?

If it was an attempt to exploit the unsuspecting masses, I guess that the math of my example speaks for itself. I am either the customer-oriented idealist that I claim to be, or incompetent as a capitalist. If this isn't clear enough already:
$40.- more in six years of use (under the assumption that it will be a non-stop use of the subscription) is a profit margin that I do not deem worthy of a serious debate. Who knows what will be in six years?
For the foreseeable future the subscription offer is a price reduction for the vast majority of players except for those who already own a CodeMeter stick, or who firmly plan to play our game for the next ten years. Either way: Be my guest!

Frankly, I don't care what Microsoft or EA or Ubisoft do ...  I'm more concerned with what guys like eSim Games, DCS, matrix/Slitherine, Battlefront, etc. do...and whether you like it or not, or want to believe it or not, they are watching what other similarly situated developers are doing and can be influenced.

Again, I cannot speak for what other game developers think or may do. I can only speak about what we do, and what our intention is behind our actions. I think that the facts speak for themselves. Also, eSim Games has been doing well in the past eight years with the CodeMeter stick. How many other game developers in your list above have followed our example? Woudn't that suggest that what we're doing is relevant only for our business model, and not for them?

[Jarhead0331]

What can I say. You were alarmist in your first post, a bit confrontative in style, unfazed by arguments from the other side. That's fine, everybody has his right to an opinion no matter how one-sided it may be. I'd like to point out however that you reported in depth about the reactions from others at the SimHQ thread, but conveniently left out any of the arguments that I brought forward.

That is not fair.  I directed people in this forum to the thread at simhq by posting a link.  You make it sound like I was attempting to conceal your counterpoints.  That simply is not true.  Your responses are rather lengthy.  Must I summarize them, or reprint them in order for you to be convinced that I do not have a hidden agenda against you?  Additionally, there was nothing bellicose or confrontational in my initial post.  When I'm wrong, or off the mark, I admit it.  Here, I just don't see it.  I wasn't the one calling people names...your supporters were, and it was them who aggressively rushed to your defense, when no defense was necessary, because there was no attack.

In other words, if that's your intent or not, you signal that an attempt to discuss the matter with you is futile. You don't want to accept the argument that software maintenance may become an important issue if a software is being worked on for decades and that users must pay for it in order to make the whole concept work out. You seem to ignore the fact that the new option is something offered in addition to something with which you apparently have had no problem (and still don't, per your own words), because somehow it's important to discuss it on grounds of The Principle. I get it, you don't like time-limited license ... and you don't have to, because you can still use your CodeMeter stick now, and in years to come.

Then I guess we're at an impasse, because you're doing exactly the same thing.  Refusing to acknowledge that there may, just possibly, be some slight legitimacy to my concerns.  You too do not want to accept my arguments, so isn't further discussion with you on this topic futile, as well?  Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

But one thing you say is very true, indeed...I do not like time-limited licenses.  I will continue to use my Codemeter, but that is not my concern, is it?

Every developer, at least the good ones, continue to support their product.  eSim Games does not hold any exclusive title as champion here.  Its very true, eSim Games provides excellent support and customer service, now go pat yourself on the back.  You also get paid well for your product.  $115 is a lot of money for the average Joe...you should be supporting the product at that price. Plenty of other games out there have been supported for years, and the developers do not use a time-limited licensing approach.  If they can do it, so can you.  If you choose not too, thats ok too.  Oh, and lets face it, eSim Games does not generate the majority of its revenue off of the commercial/recreational gamer.  It makes most of its sales through government and professional licensing, no?

If it was an attempt to exploit the unsuspecting masses, I guess that the math of my example speaks for itself. I am either the customer-oriented idealist that I claim to be, or incompetent as a capitalist. If this isn't clear enough already:

So long as you insist on speaking in hyperbole, your arguments will continue to be unpersuasive.  Drop it all ready. Despite the fact that I don't think you're involved in a grand conspiracy to trick the masses, my concerns, which are logical and rational, based upon the direction the industry is taking, are completely legitimate.

Once again, you're a good guy and a solid developer...but I still believe eSim Games likely makes the majority of its profit off of government licensing and contracts.  What are we really talking about, from a financial perspective, when it comes to your private civilian license holders?

Again, I cannot speak for what other game developers think or may do. I can only speak about what we do, and what our intention is behind our actions.

Yes, I know...you've said this a few times before.  But I believe that when we take certain actions, we should think about how they may influence others, or what wider ramifications they may have.  For instance, I'm a lawyer...I think about whether to make certain arguments because I try to anticipate the future of the case.  I also try to avoid making an argument that, down the road, may result in a negative precedent for other clients in future similar cases.  You have to take some responsibility for the ripples your own actions may ultimately make in your own little pond...

[SgtRock]

Pay as you go or pay for a demo?  Either way I don't like it! Why are wargaming companies mainly the ones with bad bad license/DRM systems?  We've seen this with Storm Eagle, BattleFront and now eSim Games. Then when you have problems with these License/DRM systems, you have to wait & treat you like crooks!

I say, just SAY NO, to this crap! They should just sell their games on Steam and forget the hassle & support headaches.

[LongBlade]

I don't know.

eSim is branding themselves as a premium COTS wargame company. I get that.

Opinions vary on demos. Generally demos fall into one of two types: they either give you a short chunk of the entire game engine (susceptible to hacking) or they give you a part of the game (which, if it isn't designed properly, will give a negative experience of the game and turn away a sale).

That eSim wants to sell a short-term full-game experience in order to keep out the riff-raff and give people an incentive to dig into their admittedly complex and steep learning curve of a game - I say that's cool.

Steel Beasts Pro isn't for everyone and their strategy is doubling down on that branding decision.

I don't think this portends a trend for the gaming industry as a whole. What works for a $120 tank sim isn't going to work for a $40 Battle Academy.

I think I get it. I've got a gaming laptop and it's on my lap right now. The chances of me damaging a USB connected device are something I try to minimize, but I value the portability of my laptop above being tethered to a desk. So the decision to "rent" the game for a period of time - as opposed to buying it and messing up the USB stick - are real for me. I can and do sometimes wear stuff out because it bangs into an armrest. Or the dog steps on it competing with the laptop for attention (Max was nicknamed the Maxtop for a reason).

This is innovation in the marketplace. SBP is a niche game in a niche market. I'm OK with that - especially after Ssnake came over here to explain things.

[Toonces]

First off, Ssnake thank you for stopping by and explaining your side.

Next I want to reiterate what I believe Jarhead said, which is that neither of us (nor the community at large I believe) thinks eSim is doing something evil or trying to make extra money through some scheme. 

My concern, and Jarhead's, is the precedent it MIGHT set. 

I understand that as a business you have to worry about your bottom line first and foremost and I appreciate that stance.  It doesn't make me happier about the new pricing policy, but I do empathize and understand your point of view.  I hope you realize that I'm not your enemy here.  In fact, I'm a customer who will continue to support eSims through purchases of upgrades to my USB stick.

It's funny, but I got to thinking about this last night before I read the responses to this thread and it occurred to me that, in the case of SB:Pro the rental pricing almost does make sense.  Given the high initial investment and then paid upgrades every few years, the delta between ownership and renting after many years is pretty small. 

At any rate, I think of this sort of like buying a car vs. leasing a car.  Both are appropriate for some drivers.  What worries me, though, is the day when Ford releases a car but you simply can't buy it.  You have to lease it, period.  That's what we're talking about here really. 

This is just one small thing, but other developers will take notice of eSim's success or failure with this new pricing concept.  I guess we'll have to wait and see how it turns out.

[LongBlade]

The game is $25 off for a limited time, too! http://www.esimgames.com/purchase.htm

Support, however, goes to Win 7 and single-core processors. After that it's not clear how things will run on your system.

[Jarhead0331]

First off, Ssnake thank you for stopping by and explaining your side.

Next I want to reiterate what I believe Jarhead said, which is that neither of us (nor the community at large I believe) thinks eSim is doing something evil or trying to make extra money through some scheme. 

My concern, and Jarhead's, is the precedent it MIGHT set. 

I understand that as a business you have to worry about your bottom line first and foremost and I appreciate that stance.  It doesn't make me happier about the new pricing policy, but I do empathize and understand your point of view.  I hope you realize that I'm not your enemy here.  In fact, I'm a customer who will continue to support eSims through purchases of upgrades to my USB stick.

It's funny, but I got to thinking about this last night before I read the responses to this thread and it occurred to me that, in the case of SB:Pro the rental pricing almost does make sense.  Given the high initial investment and then paid upgrades every few years, the delta between ownership and renting after many years is pretty small. 

At any rate, I think of this sort of like buying a car vs. leasing a car.  Both are appropriate for some drivers.  What worries me, though, is the day when Ford releases a car but you simply can't buy it.  You have to lease it, period.  That's what we're talking about here really. 

This is just one small thing, but other developers will take notice of eSim's success or failure with this new pricing concept.  I guess we'll have to wait and see how it turns out.

Quoted for truth...all of it.

[Grim.Reaper]

The game is $25 off for a limited time, too! http://www.esimgames.com/purchase.htm

Support, however, goes to Win 7 and single-core processors. After that it's not clear how things will run on your system.

When version 3.0 is released shortly, it will cost $115.....therefore, looks like the cost for the newest game will be the same whether you buy now ($75 + $40 upgrade price) or in a couple of weeks when it is out ($115).

[Toonces]

Normally I wouldn't do this to you guys, but....

This video is simply great.  It's like a movie.  Last night I actually backed up and watched the whole 1-5 episodes and it's an amazing experience.  It's the reason why I play computer games.

Steel Beasts is a pretty amazing piece of software. 



edit: fixed your video for you; don't shoot me

[Grim.Reaper]

So how hard is it to really play this sim?  Always have been intrigued but intimidated.  Do you have to be a super-tanker to play and enjoy it?

[bayonetbrant]

Do you have to be a super-tanker

nah - one of me is enough!  ;)

[Toonces]

I find it hard, but I'm more of a pilot-type than ground type.  Still, the challenge is part of the fun.

I finally sat down and no-shit read the manual the last few days and now I'm working through the tutorials.  The payoff seems amazing. 

They recently added the T-72 in the last upgrade.  From what I understand 3.0 is going to have all sorts of new stuff.  Honestly it's like the BMS of ground sims.  But it's not nearly as hard to learn as BMS.  Most of my problems stem from just not understanding how to effectively do ground stuff, utilize the terrain, things like that. 

[LongBlade]

So how hard is it to really play this sim?  Always have been intrigued but intimidated.  Do you have to be a super-tanker to play and enjoy it?

That's very cool, but I would need some serious help in figuring out how to play that game competently.

[Grim.Reaper]

I find it hard, but I'm more of a pilot-type than ground type.  Still, the challenge is part of the fun.

I finally sat down and no-shit read the manual the last few days and now I'm working through the tutorials.  The payoff seems amazing. 

They recently added the T-72 in the last upgrade.  From what I understand 3.0 is going to have all sorts of new stuff.  Honestly it's like the BMS of ground sims.  But it's not nearly as hard to learn as BMS.  Most of my problems stem from just not understanding how to effectively do ground stuff, utilize the terrain, things like that.

Thanks for the feedback......Is everything easily controlled through the keyboard or is this the type of game you need some kind of controller unit to play?  If so, what is the typical recommended setup?

[Toonces]

I use keyboard and mouse, and I think that's the preferred set up.  Frankly, I can't gun for crap with keyboard/mouse.  I've been thinking that a gamepad might really be more effective, but I haven't tried it.

I might just need more practice with the controls.  What I really want to do is to figure out how to play strictly from the commander's seat and allow my AI gunner to do all the shooting.  I know that must be possible, but I haven't figured out how to do it effectively.

Not sure if I really answered your question there...