Interesting discussion on oaths and loyalty.

[besilarius]

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/what-an-oath-means

[Martok]

Thanks for the link bes.  I don't know that I entirely agree with Col. Bateman, but I certainly see where he's coming from. 


I do agree Thomas deserves a lot more recognition than he's generally received, especially since having learned more about him when I recently read McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom.  He deserved major accolades, even before his performances at Chickamauga and other battles. 

[LongBlade]

<shrug>

I think this guys has spotted all the trees and missed the forest.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

<shrug>

I think this guys has spotted all the trees and missed the forest.

Spell it out Barney style. Some of us are not well versed in the Generals or battles of the US Civil War.

Personally I see a big difference in the old oath to the United States vs the newer oath to the Constitution. I have no idea why he says he sees them similar. One is an area of territory, one is a set of ideas for governance.

[Staggerwing]

Oddly enough, American schoolchildren may have pledged allegiance to their teacher, or to the intercom speaker on the classroom wall, but very few American citizens who have not been in military service have pledged allegiance to an actual government entity. Those who have are probably naturalized citizens born in an other country. When I was 17 years old I stood in front of a US federal judge and said the pledge of allegiance. I had actually been here in the USA from the age of three but it wasn't until then that I became a citizen of the United States of America. Even now that still feels heavy.

[besilarius]

I'd suggest that the Colonel is forgetting the way things worked in the pre-twentieth century.
Gentlemen were expected to follow a code of conduct.  They were supposed to be examples for the lower class blokes whome they lead.
One part of the code was they were not required to follow a leader, or a country, who they felt broke the code.  After the French Revolution, why did all the senior officers of the government leave?  Well, practically, they were afraid of being guillotined for being nobles, or just because they were friends with nobles.  Did that make them traitors?  At that time, they were not branded traitors to their country, because their country had gone mad.
However, how about those whose native land was conquered by Revolutionary France?  When Belguim was overrun, some officers stayed to fight and defend their homeland and some left to continue fighting the conquerors.  Who were the traitors?
It can be very complicated.  Remember that Lee's father was one fo the better cavalry officers of the American Revolution.  He knew a lot of people who felt it was right to break with a government that they did not agree with.
By the colonel's strict view, should Lee's daddy, Light Horse Harry Lee, have thrown up his oath of service to George III and become a revolutionary?
It gets complicated.

[LongBlade]

<shrug>

I think this guys has spotted all the trees and missed the forest.

Spell it out Barney style. Some of us are not well versed in the Generals or battles of the US Civil War.

Personally I see a big difference in the old oath to the United States vs the newer oath to the Constitution. I have no idea why he says he sees them similar. One is an area of territory, one is a set of ideas for governance.

What I mean is this:

The guy is boasting about how much his oath means to him. For all the bluster - and I speculate here - I believe he hasn't lifted a finger to support and defend the constitution when it comes to protesting the NSA's antics.

So he thinks he's being very consistent to his oath (sees the trees) by not deliberately turning on his nation, yet he is failing in his sworn duty to protect and defend the constitution (the forest) by not doing *something* to protest a program which is clearly unconstitutional.

Again, speculation on my part, but given the vitriol he has for Snowden, I'm comfortable putting that out there.

Oh, and he told us he's a jerk and a mean drunk. I wouldn't be surprised if his essay weren't designed to sharpen those personality traits rather than engage in legitimate discussion.