Wealth Distribution

[LongBlade]

The market does a lot of stuff i do not agree with.

That's not a problem. Just don't be surprised with the results.

I would add a word of caution. On paper, state-controlled economies are vastly superior to market driven ones because they place certain values ahead of allowing the markets to determine supply and demand.

N.B. "on paper."

[Windigo]

The market does a lot of stuff i do not agree with.

That's not a problem. Just don't be surprised with the results.

I would add a word of caution. On paper, state-controlled economies are vastly superior to market driven ones because they place certain values ahead of allowing the markets to determine supply and demand.

N.B. "on paper."

I think if you weigh 'response time' heavily, state-controlled flunks out. 1 guy in a free (lets just say that means less regulated than a communist party-state) economy can invent something and capitalize on it fairly quickly. Multiply that a million times in a year and you got some heat in your economy... somehow I just can't see an inventor in a state controlled economy, being able to sell the idea to bureaucrats that a chain link fence bottom trim that's easy to install/looks nice (and most importantly allows for weed whacking with minimal string breakage) as a big thing.

I would never say state control is better than market driven as a generalization.

Having said that I find certain aspects of state control very appealing ... QA/QC, safety, etc. I will admit that its pretty impeding if done wrong (and we seem to like regulations that are punitive rather than effective).

[Steelgrave]

Oh man....a very timely "must read" article from the producer of "The Wire". Here's an excerpt, but don't be lazy....the article is worth a read.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/08/david-simon-capitalism-marx-two-americas-wire

And that's what The Wire was about basically, it was about people who were worth less and who were no longer necessary, as maybe 10 or 15% of my country is no longer necessary to the operation of the economy. It was about them trying to solve, for lack of a better term, an existential crisis. In their irrelevance, their economic irrelevance, they were nonetheless still on the ground occupying this place called Baltimore and they were going to have to endure somehow.

That's the great horror show. What are we going to do with all these people that we've managed to marginalise? It was kind of interesting when it was only race, when you could do this on the basis of people's racial fears and it was just the black and brown people in American cities who had the higher rates of unemployment and the higher rates of addiction and were marginalised and had the shitty school systems and the lack of opportunity.

And kind of interesting in this last recession to see the economy shrug and start to throw white middle-class people into the same boat, so that they became vulnerable to the drug war, say from methamphetamine, or they became unable to qualify for college loans. And all of a sudden a certain faith in the economic engine and the economic authority of Wall Street and market logic started to fall away from people. And they realised it's not just about race, it's about something even more terrifying. It's about class. Are you at the top of the wave or are you at the bottom?

[Silent Disapproval Robot]

But why shouldn't wealth be redistributed?  Is it right that it be so highly concentrated when the impacts of it are clear?

I personally find it morally wrong to take something from someone else simply because you don't have it and you want it.

That isn't to say we shouldn't take care of the poorest amongst us - somehow. But that is to say that just because you have a Jeep Willies and I don't, I should get yours? No way.

But isn't that exactly what the 1% are doing?  Using the power and influence their wealth buys them to subvert or the rule of law and rig the system so that they can transfer wealth from the lower and middle classes to themselves. 

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

But why shouldn't wealth be redistributed?  Is it right that it be so highly concentrated when the impacts of it are clear?

I personally find it morally wrong to take something from someone else simply because you don't have it and you want it.

That isn't to say we shouldn't take care of the poorest amongst us - somehow. But that is to say that just because you have a Jeep Willies and I don't, I should get yours? No way.

But isn't that exactly what the 1% are doing?  Using the power and influence their wealth buys them to subvert or the rule of law and rig the system so that they can transfer wealth from the lower and middle classes to themselves.

Yes. With zero accountability. You have democracy in name only. Even the ownership of the companies loses control. They are represented by a board. The board appoints executives. In small or medium sized companies all is fine. In really big companies you get a group of people making policy for the nation. Then for groups of nations.

[LongBlade]

But why shouldn't wealth be redistributed?  Is it right that it be so highly concentrated when the impacts of it are clear?

I personally find it morally wrong to take something from someone else simply because you don't have it and you want it.

That isn't to say we shouldn't take care of the poorest amongst us - somehow. But that is to say that just because you have a Jeep Willies and I don't, I should get yours? No way.

But isn't that exactly what the 1% are doing?  Using the power and influence their wealth buys them to subvert or the rule of law and rig the system so that they can transfer wealth from the lower and middle classes to themselves.

Yes. With zero accountability. You have democracy in name only. Even the ownership of the companies loses control. They are represented by a board. The board appoints executives. In small or medium sized companies all is fine. In really big companies you get a group of people making policy for the nation. Then for groups of nations.

If it has been done it has been done with the permission of the people.

I'm far more concerned about the expansion of the number of people receiving government payments and are becoming dependent on the state for some/all income than I am about the perceived destruction of our society by "the 1%" or whatever bogie man we wish to call them.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Well, chances are all our kids will spend 50 years in a cubicle doing the work for the 1%.

Lets put the logical extreme on the table. Power accumulates so the extreme is actually a path of least resistance. What do you get, you get a hidden power structure that makes all the elections, news, sports, etc grand theatre for the working masses.

[OJsDad]

When the SEIU was organizing their protests against the fast food companies, it was pointed out that there are over 3 million jobs unfilled.  Some unions and companies try to bring people in for apprenticeship programs to train people but they get get their positions filled.

I was talking to a friend at church today that works at a factory.  He has 30 maintenance position open.  These jobs pay $50k/year plus overtime.  He looked at trying to get an apprenticeship program going to fill these jobs, but the union blocked him.

Before we talk about wealth redistribution, perhaps those crying about their low wages should actually put some effort into getting a good paying job and not just expect one handed to them.

[Silent Disapproval Robot]

If it has been done it has been done with the permission of the people.

I'm far more concerned about the expansion of the number of people receiving government payments and are becoming dependent on the state for some/all income than I am about the perceived destruction of our society by "the 1%" or whatever bogie man we wish to call them.

But isn't that also done with the permission of the people?

[LongBlade]

Well, chances are all our kids will spend 50 years in a cubicle doing the work for the 1%.

So what?

What is wrong with making a living, even if it means working for someone else?

You guys sound like work is a Bad Thing. WTF?

[LongBlade]

If it has been done it has been done with the permission of the people.

I'm far more concerned about the expansion of the number of people receiving government payments and are becoming dependent on the state for some/all income than I am about the perceived destruction of our society by "the 1%" or whatever bogie man we wish to call them.

But isn't that also done with the permission of the people?

Yes it is. However, I'm not ready to surrender my democratic roots. Or rights.

[Dolan50]

I guess your OK with living in a 3rd world country run by a corporate aristocracy. Some of us aren't.

Some of us remember what it was like to live in a real democracy that served the people not the corporate interests of the 1 %.

I for one do not welcome our new slave masters who have bought off our polticians in an effort to exploit the majority of us for their own personal gain and I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one of them.

I'm pretty sure none of us have a problem working for a living either,what we do have a problem with is slaving for a living.
I've been in the workforce for over 30 years and I am not looking forward to leaving the ranks of the middle class to join the poor and exploited so a bunch of greedy fat cats can act like royalty.

Most of us expect to at least attain the living standards of our fathers and grandfathers,not the living standards of the illegal 3rd world workers that were invited here by these so called patriotic corporations and politicians to exploit and undermine the standard of living that most of us worked all our lives to attain.

You may be happy licking the boot of the corporate elite,but I don't expect everyone shares your opinion.

[Steelgrave]

"I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one of them."  LMAO!

[mirth]

"I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one of them."  LMAO!

+1

[LongBlade]

"I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one of them."  LMAO!

+1

Yes, that's funny, but the government can and does put corporations out of business when do wrong.