Marvel Cinematic Universe Running Thread

[bayonetbrant]

While that's mostly true, there's no canon that I'm aware of that contradicts Pym creating Ultron to show off.  Who he's showing off for may vary on occasion, but the fact that he is doesn't change.

[mirth]

While that's mostly true, there's no canon that I'm aware of that contradicts Pym creating Ultron to show off.  Who he's showing off for may vary on occasion, but the fact that he is doesn't change.

I hear ya. Personally I'd rather they keep the Pym creation story, but it's not a deal breaker for me if they don't in the next movie.

[MetalDog]

The Avengers is kind of a sore spot for me.  Of all the series I have read from Marvel, the Avengers has always been my favorite.  At various times I have had a hundred plus consecutive issue run and anywhere I happen to be that has back issues invariably has one or two that I don't have and get snatched up immediately.  So, when you start moving stuff around and blatantly disregarding what is already there, I get a little bent.  Which isn't to say that I don't understand why they do it.  The whole point of making the movie is for it to make bank and you have to appeal to the broadest possible audience.  But as a die hard fan, I would like to see my stories writ large AND intact.

[bayonetbrant]

I've got every Avengers issue from the original run starting at about 108 or so, until the end of the first edition.  I've got another 40 or so before 108, too.  I think my oldest one is #8 or so, but they're out in the man-cave and I'm not going digging for them.  I have every issue of WCA and SA, and most of the continuity-connected LS's too - Vision/Witch, Wonder Man, Hawkeye, etc.  Most of the rebooted Avengers stuff from the past 5 years I've got in the book collections b/c they're easier to store.

[MetalDog]

I've got every Avengers issue from the original run starting at about 108 or so, until the end of the first edition.  I've got another 40 or so before 108, too.  I think my oldest one is #8 or so, but they're out in the man-cave and I'm not going digging for them.  I have every issue of WCA and SA, and most of the continuity-connected LS's too - Vision/Witch, Wonder Man, Hawkeye, etc.  Most of the rebooted Avengers stuff from the past 5 years I've got in the book collections b/c they're easier to store.

If I ever get the time to, can I live in your garage for a few months and read them?

[JasonPratt]

Jason, have you read anything that indicates the alternate Ultron origins story? Or are you basing it on what you've seen from the films to this point? Everything you say makes sense, but I haven't seen it advanced anywhere else.

I have indeed seen it, but I don't recall where. Consequently, neither can I recall if what I saw was informed speculation, to be fair. Um, yay if Ultron isn't tied to anyone instead of to someone who only shows up after Av2??

I'd like to see them keep the Hank Pym/Ultron connection, but I'm terribly concerned about "canon" in comic-based movies. There are so many parallel universes, alternate timelines, reboots, etc. that idea of a definitive canon seems pointless.

Unless we're talking about history, or a single author (or group) making a (literally) authoritative declaration of what counts as canon in his/her/their own work, the idea of a definitive canon is pointless.

But Gundam would be an example of multiple strong definitive canons, most based on one superior originating canon (the Universal Century with the One Year War kicking off the storylines). Even if Tomino hadn't eventually taken an audacious step to gather all the alternate universe canons into one overarching canon (with his sole AU series Turn-A Gundam), the multiple canons would still work, each with some real respect to previous canons and to the originating canon.


(um, spoiler for Turn-A Gundam, I guess... ;) )

While that's mostly true, there's no canon that I'm aware of that contradicts Pym creating Ultron to show off.  Who he's showing off for may vary on occasion, but the fact that he is doesn't change.

I wouldn't call what he does in the EMH animated series "showing off" to anyone, but be that as it may. All that has to happen for that to be a factor, is for Jarvis to secretly hire Hank pretending to be Tony (and/or Pepper) to create a new adamantium body to inhabit and operate in. Pym doesn't even really have to appear in the movie for that to happen, just be a mention somewhere that he's the one who did it.

The personal stake in what happens with Ultron, is what counts to me more with Hank's personal story. I'm worried they aren't going to be able to get that into the movie series now. It also worries me that they're going straight for the Ant-Man equipment-theft origin story in his origin/solo movie after Av2, since that by its nature tends to marginalize Pym again.

Nevertheless, if they change the Ultron connection largely to Tony, that does fit my criteria for accepting a legitimate canon change.


It just occurred to me that the writers might not have wanted to emphasize two (or three now with Banner) super-smart scientists on the team, and didn't want to expose themselves to Pym's notorious baggage of being a wife-beater (undeserved though that largely is).

[Centurion40]

I'm with Pratt on this one.

If Marvel, in print, can change the "canon" to reboot a comic franchise to increase consumption and sales, than why can't they do/ allow it in film?

So long as the story flows and provides entertainment, I'm fine with it.

That being said, except for buying 2 comics this past summer for 40Jr., I haven't bought a comic since 1974.  Therefore I have no vested interest in the canon.  But I do have a vested interest in being entertained at the movies.  Everything I know about Ultron I've read here, in entertainment news websites, or in Wikipedia.

[OJsDad]

Doh!!, wrong thread.! :o

[JasonPratt]

I just learned some interesting Marvel canon history yesterday while catching up with CinemaSins on YouTube; some other channel has gotten popular recently discussing superhero and supervillain origins, so YT figured I'd be interested and showed it on the sidebar. Hey, there's Ultron! Out of curiosity I clicked it, since while I know the "canon" origin of Ultron I was curious how far back it went in Avengers history.

Turns out, the original canon origin of Ultron was that Jarvis the butler built him as a henchman after secretly turning supervillain! (Using Iron Man technology apparently.)

Not. Kidding. And this is long after Henry Pym (and Janet for that matter) had joined the team.

Then toward the end of that story arc, the writers decided the fans weren't happy with Jarvis having suddenly turned supervillain, so they tweaked the story to have Jarvis brainwashed by Ultron. (Ultron also originally appeared in that story arc as the Crimson Shadow or something like that, a mysterious figure who looked a lot like the Phantom Stranger except the outfit was red. So keep an eye out for that in the next movie, as it might be an original continuity nod.)

But that left Ultron without an actual origin explanation. Some issues later the writers decided that Pym had originally built Ultron, but that the reason Pym didn't remember is because Ultron had given him amnesia.

In other words, what we all think of (and technically is) official canon about Pym and Ultron, was itself an official retcon of original canon -- the original canon being that Jarvis had betrayed the team and built Ultron as his minion to wipe them out (disguising Ultron as a crimson human supervillain of some sort. I'm not going to be overly surprised if this is how James Spader will get to play "human" in the movie, introducing Ultron.)

[Centurion40]

The dickens you say??!!  :o

[mirth]

Paul Rudd will be Ant-Man  :o

http://marvel.com/news/movies/2013/12/19/21669/paul_rudd_set_to_star_in_marvels_ant-man

[BanzaiCat]

Most of the Marvel castings are meh to blah...but Robert Downey Jr as Tony Stark...that was a slam-dunk.

[mirth]

Mark Ruffalo, Tom Hiddleston, Clark Gregg were all great casting choices. I recently rewatched the first Tobey Maguire Spiderman and the casting in that was solid. Wilhem DaFoe was a pretty awesome choice for Green Goblin.

I like Paul Rudd. He seems like an odd choice for Ant-Man, but I could work.

[MetalDog]

As an unqualified Avengers fanboi, I say that Hank Pym's character should be well captured by Rudd.  As long as they aren't playing it for laughs.

[Centurion40]

Mark Ruffalo, Tom Hiddleston, Clark Gregg were all great casting choices. I recently rewatched the first Tobey Maguire Spiderman and the casting in that was solid. Wilhem DaFoe was a pretty awesome choice for Green Goblin.

I like Paul Rudd. He seems like an odd choice for Ant-Man, but I could work.

Agreed, although I've hated Tobey since Spidey 3.  Worst actor since Hayden Vader.