World in Flames (Matrixgames) looking for beta testers (multiplayer)

[Grim.Reaper]

I honestly think if you were to request a refund Matrix would consider it. They have admitted themselves the issues are worse than they imagined.

I would've thought a voucher for those that bought would be the least they could do - instead of excuses about "scale of development" or how long it took to make!

I think what complicates a refund in this case is the physical manuals.  I can't see them paying us to return those, but I could be wrong.  Maybe a nice compromise is that when the paid ai module cones out, people who invested early get for free.  If that was the case, I would probably hang on.

[Arctic Blast]

My biggest concern with the state of things isn't the fact there are bugs since every game has them to some degree, it's just the continued bill of goods we kept getting sold that we are buying some superior 'premium' product based on the large costs and the company saying we are.  What exactly are we getting more of with these 'premium' titles?  They seem to have the same amount of bugs (if not more) as other games and the same support.   In fact I think the support by the company has been less.  When other games are released like distant worlds, it seems like Erik and the company are constantly posting and answering questions in that forum.   For wif, I don't think they have posted much of anything.   I do think the developer has at least been active, but it comes across as a one man show for a 'premium' product.

So again, besides the fact this was a huge board game conversion and has been in development for 10 years, why is this a 'premium' game again?  Doesn't feel like it to me at this point based on feedback in the forums, since I can't play myself until Xmas.

Yeah, I tend to feel the same way about this. And yet, there doesn't seem to be much flak. Can you imagine the Internet sh*tstorm that would be going on if this had been a Paradox or Battlefront release?

[jomni]

It is a Premium game because it is based on a Premium board game which can range from $200 to $500

[Arctic Blast]

It is a Premium game because it is based on a Premium board game which can range from $200 to $500

I don't dispute that it's an impressive offer. The problem is that when you label something Premium, you increase people's expectations of that product by a significant amount. So when that product doesn't work properly, the disappointment also tends to be more substantial.

[Grim.Reaper]

It is a Premium game because it is based on a Premium board game which can range from $200 to $500

I don't dispute that it's an impressive offer. The problem is that when you label something Premium, you increase people's expectations of that product by a significant amount. So when that product doesn't work properly, the disappointment also tends to be more substantial.

Agreed +1.....it is semantics, but when you have a high price and sell it as Premium, people are naturally going to assume the product is higher quality, support is better, etc. than their other products not labeled Premium.  It seems some of their other games not labeled Premium have turned out to be more stable and enjoyable products such as Flashpoint Germany, then the premium ones and they cost a lot less.  Maybe I need to stay away from anything they list as premium:)

[jomni]

True.  Unlike cars, premium does not mean better in this case. It is just "Branded".  For example, an expensive Swiss automatic watch is not as accurate and durable as a Japanese quartz watch. In fact among quartz watches that have equal level of quality, some command a higher price just because of the brand (ex. Tag Heuer). You pay for the Swiss branding and craftsmanship but it does not mean it is superior to other alternatives.

So for matrix games, if a game is tied to a very highly regarded brand, (WiF, Gary Grigsby, Harpoon, Panther Games?) then you get premium pricing.

We just have to learn to set our expectations properly as we are beginning to see a pattern here.

[BanzaiCat]

That's funny if WiF (the board game) is $2-300. I picked up the original in 1986 or so for about $40-50. Still have it too.

Back on track, as far as marketing is concerned, as you guys have said, if you slap a Premium label on anything you're saying it's better than a 'regular' version. Premium means additional content, for the most part - at least in my mind. You absolutely cannot have a Premium version if you don't have something to compare it to! If there's not a 'basic' WiF version to compare to the 'Premium' (I have no idea as I've not looked into this game at all), then that's disingenuous. Marketing a product as a Premium, to me, should not be done unless there's a 'basic' version that it improves on.

You certainly do pay a higher price for labels (slap a Nike label on a cheap POS shoe and the price quadruples). But, just because there's a label on it doesn't mean it's actually any better than anything else. It's all about the buyer's perspective and whether or not they think the price tag is worth it. Some people are pretty much sheep when it comes to buying a certain brand, and that's why good marketing people get paid so well, to keep up that perception of their BS. If it works, they buy it, obviously. And if they buy enough of it, the seller might jack the price up on not just that, but all their products that sell well. One thing about Matrix is, they certainly sell a huge range of good game products, but their prices are ridiculously high and don't seem to go on sale all that often. There's games years old on their site that haven't seen a price break. While I complain about that, it's actually good business practice if people continue to shell out that money for their products, so I can't disparage them from that standpoint. From my wallet's standpoint, though, I certainly can. :(

[Keunert]

did someone say something bad about swiss watches?

the same can be said about a Bentley compared to a Subaru. you either go class & style or you buy affordable quality.
that's why i got a Casio watch. cool as hell but doesn't make me very attractive to all the hot female bankers around here.

[Yskonyn]

I'd say 'premium' does not have to stand for additional content. Premium stands for top quality or luxury in my view.

[JudgeDredd]

I'd say 'premium' does not have to stand for additional content. Premium stands for top quality or luxury in my view.

+1

[Grim.Reaper]

I'd say 'premium' does not have to stand for additional content. Premium stands for top quality or luxury in my view.

+1

That is my thoughts too....when I hear premium, means we are getting the best of the best, including quality and post support.  Typically you do pay a higher cost for it, but in most cases the product is supposed to live up to that label...of course it does not always happen that way.

By the way for those interested, I believe I saw a post in the official forums from Erik that a comment/decision on the physical products is expected this week (he posted on 12/17).

[JudgeDredd]

I saw his post. I'm watching - but god alone knows why.   :-\

There are way too many bugs in the game at the moment and with no AI, no working netplay to speak of and an expensive AI when it does come, this boat has sailed for me.

I think (read hope) I am just staying interested to see what the outcome is - as I was initially interested.

[Grim.Reaper]

I saw his post. I'm watching - but god alone knows why.   :-\

There are way too many bugs in the game at the moment and with no AI, no working netplay to speak of and an expensive AI when it does come, this boat has sailed for me.

I think (read hope) I am just staying interested to see what the outcome is - as I was initially interested.

Yep.  If I didn't make the purchase right away for my xmas gift (stupid me), I wouldn't make the purchase until the current version is clearly stable.  I am not too upset about it since it is a gift and I don't feel I wasted my personal money, would have gotten some useless gift anyway:)  I hope to use the next year until hopefully an AI is available to really understand the rules, that is about it.

[Grim.Reaper]

Well JD, I think at the end of the day you made the right move in holding off on this game....at least for now.

Got the game for Xmas and really haven't felt compelled enough to really give it much of a try right now for a number of reasons....

-  Been following the Matrix forums and just seems like there is one issue after another being reported...hard to want to jump in when a game is under change like that.
-  I just fired up the game to see what it looked like and the map is really great looking....BUT....seems like a lot of different windows/forms load that really confuses the user interface.  Just sat there with a dumb look on my face as to what to do.
-  Although I knew this heading in, not sure I fully grasped how much you really have to know this game before jumping in....going to have to spend a ton of time learning the rules, reading manuals, and watching the tutorials....this might turn out to be too big of a monster for me in the end.

I will say the manuals are very nice and I am actually looking forward to reading them...been a long time since I sat down and read a war game manual.  Even if I never play the game, I actually think reading them will be entertaining in its own right.  However, don't get me wrong, I still don't believe the physical user manuals should have been forced on people.  Its even kind of funny that in the opening pages of the manual the author talks about how printed manuals get out dated pretty quickly and that errata is required.  Kind of states the argument of having physical manuals for something that might change often.  Regardless, I personally would have still gotten the physical manuals, but it should have been a personal choice.

I am not completely throwing in the towel.....I'll just be taking my time in learning the rules and systems until an AI module is available, likely trying to learn through solitaire play.  Not at all angry with my purchase since I knew it was going to be a monster, although I didn't think it would have the amount of reported issues, especially for a game labeled as "Premium" and the forums are a very quiet place compared to their other products.

Only time will tell...

[JudgeDredd]

I still look at it with great fondness. I love the map and chit art...but I too am watching the Matrix forums and it seems the only really active threads are in the Tech Support forum.

as an impulse buyer, I certainly think I dodged a bullet. I have no idea how much the AI add-on will be, but it would likely be expensive...so I'm pretty sure I'm out the running for this totally. I wouldn't discount a price of £40+ for the AI...and with the game already costing £130, I'd just never pay that.

seems plenty of people are paying up though if the Buy Now count is anything to go by...that's nearly at 1000

I think the people that bought this ought to get the AI add-on for free...I really do.

anyway I hope it turns out good for you...but when netplay is working I wouldn't bother looking for me in the lobby.

I really hope you get to enjoy this bad boy.