Faux pas at The Wargamer?

[LongBlade]

Having said that, I suppose I fall into the side of, "I know this is wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway."

Nobody is judging anyone, nor are we looking down our noses at people.

What you do on your own time is your business.

Someone asked what had changed at WG, and that required an explanation of our policy here.

Beyond that, I'm not particularly interested in where folks stand on the issue. I can't stop you and I really don't want to. No one would have known about our policy if they hadn't asked. They asked. We explained.

I'm happy to drop the subject.

[Ubercat]

Most notably, however, how does one differentiate from those who actually purchased the software in 1993, as opposed to those who never did?

From a legal standpoint, I don't suppose you could unless someone could produce the receipt. My point has to do more with a persons ability to look himself in the mirror. He'll know if he's a crook or not.

[Philistine]

{snip}
Thus far in the thread, people commenting on what does or what doesn't legally constitute "theft" are immediately considered to be on a "high horse" and rambling about "moral standards".

I understand that people don't want to be called a thief, but what people think is completely irrelevant when it comes to how something is written down in the law. Moral relativism is the mortal enemy of any legal system.

Does downloading a game put you in the same moral position as someone who steals someone's car? Depends on who you ask, but not really I'd say. Are both thing legally considered to be theft? Most certainly. Stealing a pencil from a store is also theft just like stealing a computer from a store is. You're thinking in terms of value, which is why you shrug at stealing a pencil being called theft, but it's still legally theft.{snip}

To be fair.  Downloading of abandonware is not theft, nor is it a crime (at least in the US).

Copyright infringement (on the level of downloading abandonware) is a civil offense.

Also, Ubercat's point is a good one.  Downloading a game you own in an unusable format (say on 3.5" disks) to be able to continue to play it is (I would argue) a pretty clear example of fair use, negating any claim of  infringement.

Copyright infringement is still "against the law", but it's not a crime.   And it's certainly not "theft" under any legal definition. 

--Philistine

[GDS_Starfury]

Mix shades of gray and you still have gray.

theres warm grey, cool grey, french grey, battleship grey, haze grey, grey primer, light grey, dark grey, steel grey, blue grey, slate grey, panzer grey (which oddly is green) and concrete grey.  there are in fact way more then the 50 shades of grey known to Mirth (who is going grey).  one does not simply mix white and black to get Gandalf Grey.
and never bring up variations of grey with an artist who has a pantone book.

[Nefaro]

I'd only note that the justification most often used by publishers/developers for increasing levels of DRM is contained within this thread.

The primary use of the more draconian DRM is preventing the resale of their games.   Piracy is a convenient excuse.  If the console publishers could get away with it, they would enforce the same in order to squash the secondary market that so cuts into their profits.  Some of them openly admit how sore they are about it and how much they want to prevent it.   

They can't assume that someone who pirates a game will ever purchase the thing.  However, someone who's willing to pay for a used copy may well pay more for a new one if they are prevented buying the lower cost used copy from a 3rd party reseller.  Or just plain having it given to them by a friend who's done playing it.  There will always be a large amount of pirates who will never buy the things, no matter what.  A large proportion of them are located in China, Eastern Europe, etc and they will never go away.  They'll never buy the titles anyway, so it's stupid for developers to throw good money after bad and spend more resources on adding DRM in the hopes to force these people to buy their product.  Such DRM is there to prevent people from giving their games away and reselling them, thus losing money to 3rd party retailers and such.

This discussion probably shouldn't turn to yet another one about DRM but I just don't buy the whole "It's all about preventing piracy" schtick.  It's about forcing people to buy new copies at full price from the publisher.  Of course, such DRM circumvents old consumer resale rights established long ago, too, so technically what they're doing is illegal.  But nobody has spent the time and money to challenge it through the court system yet, and some of the larger companies are spending a large amount of effort to further circumvent such consumer rights via the US gov't on a regular basis.  Fortunately some other companies stand up to them and get the word out to the public when they're trying to sneak this stuff through, such as the last big episode a couple years ago.  They attempt it on a regular basis, though.

[Toonces]

^ That's close enough to what I was likely going to say that I'll just go with that.  I doubt I'd have been as eloquent, though.

[Bison]

Frankly I don't care if someone goes to a site and downloads something whatever that something is.  I personally prefer a Wild West internet to a government controlled/regulated one.  So it follows that if people want to download material that is "abandoned" or "free", what you do with your bandwidth is your responsibility in all forms personal, moral, legal regardless of what I think to be right, wrong, or am indifferent too.  Let's face it the overwhelming majority of all the music, books, movies that are loaded up to torrent sites are for sale somewhere by the actual owner of the IP.  Games may or may not have the same level of available retail means, but it honestly doesn't really matter to the greater point.   I will say that many people who download "abandoned" software also have a torrent download for something else going.  I'd also say that it's not the minority that do so.  I happen to believe in the slippery slope theory and the theory that locks only keep honest people honest.   I also know my personal boundaries for such things and what will or will not weigh on my conscience. 

[Swatter]

I understand Jarhead's argument, and I know that it is valid.

Having said that, I suppose I fall into the side of, "I know this is wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway."

If I wanted to play Civil War Generals 2, I wouldn't have any moral problem with downloading it from the provided weblink.  Just being honest.

That is totally fair. Its the refusal of some to acknowledge that what they are doing is wrong, or prejudicial to the rights of others, that irks me. That combined with the attitude that those of us who place our faith in the actual law, and think it serves a valid purpose are somehow chumps or suckers.

I'm going to assume that is partially aimed at me. I concede it is illegal. I see the need for IP laws and agree with them for the most part. I would even say it is wrong. My point is that the wrong, in this narrow case, is an insignificant wrong. There is no real harm, especially if the IP owners don't care or even aware they own the IP. Lets not go overboard and call each other names for a wrong as insignificant as going 56 in a 55.

Ill admit my argument is weak, its simply based on personal belief. I never pretended otherwise. I simply wanted to field a few arguments that might challenge my view on the ethics of downloading abandonware. I suppose I didn't even understand the popular definition of abandonware, since someone earlier in the thread defined at as games 4 years or older, not sold and are unsupported. I think that definition, if sites claimed games based on that criteria could cause more than a theoretical harm. I think that could be problematic.

I guess that makes me guilty of not being a black and white thinker (in addition to being a criminal and a thief). I guess if you ever see me in public, you can point your finger at me and comment to your friends "That guy, he's a fuzzy thinker" and let the ridicule begin.

[jomni]

Piracy is also free advertising. Those pirates will turn into fans if the game is good. They may potentially buy the sequel and support the developer.

I heard that there is this band (Megadeth? ) who made a list of countries where they were pirated the most and toured there. Of course, leading to sellout concerts.

[Darkspire]

I fall into the category of owning a couple of games on 3.5 floppies, still have them in my systems disks box with a few prehistoric CPU's (P133 etc). The funny thing is that one of the game is Pirates! ;D I did buy them from a computer store, think it was either 15 or 25 pounds each, in a box (how I miss the boxes games used to come in, like opening a treasure chest with maps, keyboard overlays, new smelly manuals etc).
So would I be able to obtain it as abandonware? I have never looked for it, but could get it to work I imagine with DOSbox. I used to put into most of my machines once the OS was on the system then floppy drives disappeared.
A question that has not been asked but I should imagine amounts to the same is what about manuals? I can only presume that they must have the same problem as the games for being in a grey area?

Darkspire

[MikeGER]

Mix shades of gray and you still have gray.

theres warm grey, cool grey, french grey, battleship grey, haze grey, grey primer, light grey, dark grey, steel grey, blue grey, slate grey, panzer grey (which oddly is green) and concrete grey.  there are in fact way more then the 50 shades of grey known to Mirth (who is going grey).  one does not simply mix white and black to get Gandalf Grey.
and never bring up variations of grey with an artist who has a pantone book.

a 'weiße Weste' (a clean slate) is boooring  ;D   

...when, i look in my shaving mirror today i probably see Flecktarn 8) not shades of grey ;) 
(well, most of the dots where collected in the early decades of my computer enhanced life)


;)

[Ian C]

arguing with a lawyer is like boxing with a boxer.

^ you guys can quote this, but remember the ip of this is mine.

Looks like Abandonquip to me.

Nearly choked on a muffin when I saw this.

[Grim.Reaper]

I guess if we go to the original post about CW2 being reviewed over at Wargamer, I think that brings up bigger questions for me.  Why was a "retro" review even created and posted about a game that is technically no longer available for anyone, besides the methods discussed in this thread which is questionable to some?  What were they hoping to accomplish?  Only people that currently have the game could really benefit from it, unless they are encouraging people who don't have it to find questionable means to obtain it?  And if people already have it, why do they care about the review since they already own it?  This "review" seems to be encouraging intentionally or unintentionally people to get interested in the game to find a means to get it whether questionable or not.  Just can't see any value or good coming out of it.

Now if they would have had an article that was more about "let's go back in time and just talk about one of our favorite games of the past", than that is something different.  Labeling it a "review" makes it feel different to me.  And whether it is legal, moral, or questionable to download this game, I do think it was wrong for an organization/writer/editor to post the links with the article itself, simply encourages people to do it and most people probably aren't aware of the issue.  They aren't helping to protect their own customers or clearly stating what the risks may be before downloading it.  If people want to search it out on their own time, that is their option since it probably takes a 1 second google search to find it.

Just my two cents....

[Jarhead0331]

I'm going to assume that is partially aimed at me. I concede it is illegal. I see the need for IP laws and agree with them for the most part. I would even say it is wrong. My point is that the wrong, in this narrow case, is an insignificant wrong. There is no real harm, especially if the IP owners don't care or even aware they own the IP. Lets not go overboard and call each other names for a wrong as insignificant as going 56 in a 55.

...and all I'm saying is the wrong is not as insignificant as you may think. Your single act of downloading a file is not necessarily a tremendous wrong. However, multiply that download by 100, by 1,000, by 10,000 and you see how it becomes more problematic. You are only seeing the tree in front of you. Try seeing the forest around you, instead. Its the bigger picture that matters here...potentially.

Ill admit my argument is weak, its simply based on personal belief. I never pretended otherwise. I simply wanted to field a few arguments that might challenge my view on the ethics of downloading abandonware. I suppose I didn't even understand the popular definition of abandonware, since someone earlier in the thread defined at as games 4 years or older, not sold and are unsupported. I think that definition, if sites claimed games based on that criteria could cause more than a theoretical harm. I think that could be problematic.

Fair enough.

I guess that makes me guilty of not being a black and white thinker (in addition to being a criminal and a thief). I guess if you ever see me in public, you can point your finger at me and comment to your friends "That guy, he's a fuzzy thinker" and let the ridicule begin.

Oh stop it. Now you're just being a silly goose. I do not equate the act of downloading "abandonware" to the act of say, murder or rape. I promise I will not publicly subject you to ridicule.

[bbmike]

I guess if we go to the original post about CW2 being reviewed over at Wargamer, I think that brings up bigger questions for me.  Why was a "retro" review even created and posted about a game that is technically no longer available for anyone, besides the methods discussed in this thread which is questionable to some? 

You can still buy it from Amazon sellers used for about $25. Didn't check eBay but it's probably there as well. Not to mention that some people designing games could benefit from reading a retro review or two.