any suggestions on a very complex war game?

[jnpoint]

Right now Matrix has released "Lock 'n Load: Heroes of Stalingrad" - that looks kind of interesting. So I'll look into it.

[Toonces]

Although WitP is al about that, then it's just to much of a monster for me :) I know I ask for a complex game, but wow WitP looks sooo huge, I would never be able to finish it.

You make Toonces sad.   :(

Seriously, though, you do need to get into the weeds with WitP, and it might not be the right game.  But, you can skip some of the BS, and such.  However, no matter how you slice it, it IS a very long game to finish the main campaign.

Be sure to let us know what you decide on, and how that fits the bill for you.   This isn't an uncommon question among wargamers.

[Wolfe1759]

yes, I might not have been so precise. English is not my primary language so it's somehow difficult to be precise, but I'll try harder this time.

Yes I like micromanagement a lot and complex rules too (love chess). Although WitP is al about that, then it's just to much of a monster for me :) I know I ask for a complex game, but wow WitP looks sooo huge, I would never be able to finish it.

For me it is not important if it's squad level or not, but I like games that gives you time and/or opportunity to prepare a good defense and room to choose between several tactical considerations.   

If you are looking for complex decision making against an AI that can do the same i.e. you can spend more time thinking about and planning your move as actually making it (as in chess) then I'll agree with those that have already recommended Command Ops. Also if you like micromanagement in Command Ops you play a Corps level game and micromanage down to the individual Company.

[sandman2575]

I have dreams of a War in the Pacific 2.... Even if 2by3 just took the existing WitP:AE and gave it a modest graphical face-lift, with improved UI, I would happily pay top dollar for that. 

As much as I think WitP is an amazing game -- WitE is a pale, disappointing shadow in comparison -- I do increasingly find the outdated graphics and somewhat frustrating UI more and more of a barrier and disincentive to play...

[GDS_Starfury]

women are pretty frakin complex.  you could try one of them.   ;)

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I wonder why people think complex is better. I find there is little insight in micromanagement based games. In the real world many complexities usually mean many approximations to fix a misunderstanding. Maybe what you seek is not what you want. Try Go, looks simple.

[Bison]

yes, I might not have been so precise. English is not my primary language so it's somehow difficult to be precise, but I'll try harder this time.

Yes I like micromanagement a lot and complex rules too (love chess). Although WitP is al about that, then it's just to much of a monster for me :) I know I ask for a complex game, but wow WitP looks sooo huge, I would never be able to finish it.

For me it is not important if it's squad level or not, but I like games that gives you time and/or opportunity to prepare a good defense and room to choose between several tactical considerations.   

Command Ops Battle of the Bulge.  Seriously.  You can plan out very complex operations from as high or low on the organizational chart as you want.  Then make adjustments as the times for your operations slip or the AI makes counter moves. 

[JasonPratt]

One thing about WitP:AE and Command Ops which hasn't been stressed is that you don't have to be as complex as the games allow. You can adjust how much complexity you want to play with -- moreso with CO than with WitP, due to the very different way the game plays.

Another option would be to try WitP: Warplan Orange, which isn't as complex as even the original WitP, much less AE; and still allows scaling how much of the war you'd like to manage. Plus it has a unique alternate history story, with WW2 starting early in the Pacific while technology isn't much more advanced than WW1.

[jnpoint]

i was looking for something similar, but me, i like gary's games very much, though... anyway, i thought i had found it with world in flames - but since the ai-opponent is far from finished and the single player experience is still missing something, i found lot's of challenge with tiller's panzer campaigns - yes, old stuff... no 'new' game but still.
if you have the time and patience you should try the mius-demo! hoi3 with the latest dlc 'their finest hour' is great, too - not turn-based... you should check paradox-forum and search for the black-ice mod, that's something special!! ;-)

good luck!
chem!

I tried the mius demo. Is the graphics the same level in John Tiller's games as in that one? If the graphics is better than in the demo I think, I will get Red victory.

[Bison]

Tiller's graphics are the same as the demo.  I'd look at Decisive Campaigns too especially since Warsaw to Paris is on sale for $20 at Matrix at the moment.

[z1812]

So jnpoint which game did you decide upon?

[Philippe]

Tiller's graphics are not very good, which is a shame because the games deliver an experience that is worth having.


Here's a link to some mods for the Panzer Campaign series


http://tfe4.wordpress.com/graphics-and-sound-mods/panzer-campaigns-and-other-hps-titles/


The last mod on the list of East Front Panzer Campaign games improves the 2D graphics of the Mius mod.  Most of the other mods on the list require that you install Volcano Man's mod first (which you should always do if available because his _alt scenarios are more realistic than the out of the box versions.

Operational games are not everybody's cup of tea.  I happen to like them because I grew up playing board games where a division was represented by a single counter.  In the Panzer Campaign games you get a better sense of what a division really is.