CM Red Thunder page is up

[Zonso]

I think the time has come to stop comparing the present Combat Mission products to the old Combat Mission games.   These are clunkers now and relegated to a box in the corner.  They seem to play more in people's minds than on their computers.

Sure, I think that was shot and buried a long time ago, just those remaining who think feature 'x' is more important than the sum. I would like to see the latest effort from Achtung Panzer reviewed and put through the paces to see if it has improved the simulation and UI aspects, as that seems to be the only potential competitor on the horizon.

[Dolan50]

I would like to see the latest effort from Achtung Panzer reviewed and put through the paces to see if it has improved the simulation and UI aspects, as that seems to be the only potential competitor on the horizon.

If you were to look at the original Achtung Panzer and the new and improved version:Graviteam Tactics Operation Star, you would barely recognize it as the same game.

Over the last 2 years Graviteam has improved upon the series by leaps and bounds and a lot of the things that the CMRT crowd are fawning over now have been standard items with the GTOS series for years.

As far as I'm concerned CM is trying to compete with Graviteam, not the other way around.

[Cyrano]

Fearing a full-on thread hijack, but also knowing that the folks following THIS thread would be the most likely to know:

How soon is MP expected in the Graviteam products?

It's the only thing that keeps me out, although I think comparing that system to CM is a bit appley-orangey; different itches and audiences.

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)

[Zulu1966]

I would like to see the latest effort from Achtung Panzer reviewed and put through the paces to see if it has improved the simulation and UI aspects, as that seems to be the only potential competitor on the horizon.

If you were to look at the original Achtung Panzer and the new and improved version:Graviteam Tactics Operation Star, you would barely recognize it as the same game.

Over the last 2 years Graviteam has improved upon the series by leaps and bounds and a lot of the things that the CMRT crowd are fawning over now have been standard items with the GTOS series for years.

As far as I'm concerned CM is trying to compete with Graviteam, not the other way around.

Well I find that comment a bit odd. I have all the graviteam games and all the DLC - and frankly they seem exactly the same game to me then as now. Still the same UI and poorly written manual and still essentially an RTS game not a wargame as such - which to my mind is the gaping chasm between the two.  I would be interested to know what these game changers have been as I struggle to see them myself.

[Michael Dorosh]

As far as I'm concerned CM is trying to compete with Graviteam, not the other way around.

Fans tend to be fans of genres rather than individual games, which means competition between games and publishers in the same genre is really kind of illusory. I bought the majority of Combat Mission titles and also the Panzer Command series.  Similarly, there are board gamers who will play ASL as well as Combat Commander, Band of Brothers, Fighting Formations, etc. because they appeal in different ways or provide different experiences. Mainly, though, I'm not sure many of the publishers would ever openly admit to actively "competing" against the others.

[Dolan50]

Well I find that comment a bit odd. I have all the graviteam games and all the DLC - and frankly they seem exactly the same game to me then as now. Still the same UI and poorly written manual and still essentially an RTS game not a wargame as such - which to my mind is the gaping chasm between the two.  I would be interested to know what these game changers have been as I struggle to see them myself.

Odd....?

What's so odd about it?
If you played the original APK43 and have followed the developments from that game to the present(GTOS) you will see an immense difference.

Here are just a few since I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest.

1)The UI is completely revamped-go back and look at the old APK43 and earlier versions of APOS.
2)The graphics have been improved immensely also along with a multitude of weather varieties.
3)No more 1 platoon per SqKm.
4)The modern and WW2 DLC content can be used together in QBs.(No family of games that aren't compatible).
5)The AI uses cover and concealment when attacking or counter attacking objectives when triggered instead of making a straight beeline assault.
6)There is now a command and control bar when issuing orders.

I could go on and on,but it's pointless if you haven't played this game as long as I have and played APK43 and taken notice of how far the game has matured since the beginning. If I really thought that CM was the better game I would be playing it instead GTOS.
Next up is Mius Front43 with a completely different UI and game engine and a bunch of other features that will take the game into a whole new era of improvements and new ground breaking ideas.

As far as I'm concerned Graviteam is looking at CMRT in the rear view mirror.(already been there and done that).

My biggest concern right now with this game are the problems in the Ukraine presently and how it will effect if the game will be released in the west.
I am not looking forward to CM as my only choice for this type of game in the future.

With that I'm going to refrain from posting in this thread anymore.  Way too much disinformation concerning Graviteam posted here that is getting bothersome and irksome to reply too.
Those of us who have played both CM and Graviteam and Squad Leader and ASL from the get go and have made the switch to Graviteam no exactly why we prefer Graviteam over CM.

[RyanE]

I play both games pretty extensively in single player.  Graviteam appears to me a much better simulation of tactical combat on the eastern front.  It provides so many tools and tweaks to realism and gameplay that it can really span all levels of experience and levels of play.  It really sucks in the patching process and dealing with the devs.  But BFC is only slightly ahead in both of those categories.

I find the interface no more cumbersome than CM for learning...its just as quirky and non-standard.  In fact, there are many areas where it is significantly better than CM.  The big gameplay downsides are no full replay and no wego.  The game is pausable and orders can be issued.  The pace is no faster than CM, but can be sped up at boring points.  There are things in Graviteam that have been requested for years in CM: live OOBs lists, jump to action, time acceleration, mini-maps, etc.  The one main thing that is better than CM is the TacAI.  It is just awesome. 

CM's mapmaking and scenario builder is a big plus on the CM side.  But Graviteam counters with the operational level that CM can't come close to.  Graviteam's scenario builder is not as powerful, but the game is pretty moddable with the right skill set.

After playing Graviteam in a long session, CM always seems a little bland.  It also runs a lot better and looks somewhat better in my opinion.  There is a pretty significant amount of content out there for it, but nothing on the western front WW2.

[Bletchley_Geek]

Well I find that comment a bit odd. I have all the graviteam games and all the DLC - and frankly they seem exactly the same game to me then as now. Still the same UI and poorly written manual and still essentially an RTS game not a wargame as such - which to my mind is the gaping chasm between the two.  I would be interested to know what these game changers have been as I struggle to see them myself.

Odd....?

What's so odd about it?
If you played the original APK43 and have followed the developments from that game to the present(GTOS) you will see an immense difference.

Here are just a few since I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest.

Dolan, you come to this thread to piss on Combat Mission, not substantiating what you claim, and then you say you retreat because you lack the 'numbers' to 'win' the discussion. That's not a very constructive attitude, I'd say.

I bought GTOS - or APOS to be more exact, since it was rebranded, back in November 2011 from Gamersgate. I even posted a mini-AAR on Gamesquad back in Christmas 2011. Never played the old Kharkov 43 game, though.

I could go on and on,but it's pointless if you haven't played this game as long as I have and played APK43 and taken notice of how far the game has matured since the beginning. If I really thought that CM was the better game I would be playing it instead GTOS.

...

With that I'm going to refrain from posting in this thread anymore.  Way too much disinformation concerning Graviteam posted here that is getting bothersome and irksome to reply too.
Those of us who have played both CM and Graviteam and Squad Leader and ASL from the get go and have made the switch to Graviteam no exactly why we prefer Graviteam over CM.

This attitude I tend to see in some 'fans' of GTOS makes a huge disservice to the game by making statements like "I could go on and on,but it's pointless if you haven't played this game as long as I have and played APK43 and taken notice of how far the game has matured since the beginning". If you want Graviteam products to be more successful, then making a comparison between CMx2 and GTOS is far from pointless. It also bothers me these claims about "disinformation about GTOS". Indeed, there are some people out there who have been writing stuff like "I will never put Russian (sic) software in my computers", which is a bit like saying "I will never buy products from the corner shop because the shop owner speaks funny".

I'll be kickstarting a thread making a comparison of GTOS versus CMx2, which I think it will be interesting and should present an opportunity to compare both offerings for those interested in high-fidelity WW2 tactical wargames.

[RyanE]

Frankly, all you have to do is show the patching process and that will turn most people off.

[Elvis]

Very interesting post by the user "von Albert" on Battlefront's forum for CMRT to increase your frame rate performance for CMx2.

He posted to do the following for your video card:

1) Sett the Vertical Sync Tear Control to Adaptive
2)  and the Frame Rate to half the refresh rate of 60 Hz.

I have a 660 Ti and did the above using nVidia Inspector and wow! What a difference.

Now CMBN, CMFI, CMA and even CMSF run at a smooth 30 fps with even shadows on. Before I was lucky to hit 30 fps with my 660 Ti and more like 17-20 fps in the very large scenarios. After this change, I now run locked at 30 fps and CMx2 looks great.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=114616

When I get home I am going to post an article in the Knowledgebase recommending this for people that struggle with frame rate. But their will be a caveat about a possible side effect that we are aware of.

I get pretty good frame rate myself on my non sexy laptop.  But I might give it a try anyway. :)

[RyanE]

I still find it both bizzare and disappointing that CM2 runs better on some older and low-end computers than on some pretty stoked rigs.  I went out and bought a brand new laptop that benchmarked almost 40% on Rise of Flight and Arma2 than on my older laptop.  CMBO runs 20% slower on the new one.  I have tried everything, including overclocking and nothing helps.

I am never quite sure what laptop to buy for CM.  It seems completely unpredictable.

btw, the above trick is only for nVidia, not AMD as far as I can tell.

[WallysWorld]

btw, the above trick is only for nVidia, not AMD as far as I can tell.

Yes, I probably should have posted that it appears to be only for nVidia cards. I don't know if AMD cards have an Adaptive Vertical Sync setting.

[RyanE]

Not stock.  You have to use a 3rd party app like RadeonPro, but I have seen issues with those apps.

I don't think we are too far away from BFC having to re-engineer CM.  They are stringing the OpenGL thing along too long and support for OpenGL as a modern platform is getting more and more limited.  Its the compromises they have to make to stick with OpenGL that hurts performance on modern PCs and video cards.

[Redirected]

Does one have to set the monitor to 60 Hz?  Seems like an eye-bleed hack.

[MengJiao]

I still find it both bizzare and disappointing that CM2 runs better on some older and low-end computers than on some pretty stoked rigs.  I went out and bought a brand new laptop that benchmarked almost 40% on Rise of Flight and Arma2 than on my older laptop.  CMBO runs 20% slower on the new one.  I have tried everything, including overclocking and nothing helps.

I am never quite sure what laptop to buy for CM.  It seems completely unpredictable.

btw, the above trick is only for nVidia, not AMD as far as I can tell.

  Having problems with high-end rigs seems to be pretty common these days.  Actually, I think it has been true for the last decade at least that buying a mid-range, two-years-behind-the-cutting-edge machine has been a better strategy for getting less frustrated in one's gaming experiences.