CM Red Thunder page is up

[Yskonyn]

Absolutely, but I was making a point about the current standpoint of the engine and CMSF.

[MengJiao]

I do think there is a point though where an engine that started development 10 years ago can only go so far.  Multi-core processing, OpenGL sunsetting, 64-bit Windows, etc. are things that are making the CM 2.0 engine seem very dated.  They also seem to have a new programmer who has a better understanding of modern 3D programming.  But he seems somewhat hamstrung by CM's current architecture.

They had to make that decision on CM1 and will have to make that decision on CM2 at some point.

  As I recall, one of the reasons they dropped CM1 was that it was too hard to modify the basic engine.  I would think the CMXX engine is easier to modify or why would they have bothered developing it?

[RyanE]

That is what they claimed, but look how long it was taking to develop new games.  It was two years between games for CMSF to CMBN.  It was only after they added a second programmer that the pace picked up.

In fact, the amount of time to build and release CMBN was no different then CMBO to CMBB.  I thnk it might have been a little longer.   ANd that was with a lot less scope and content.

[Zulu1966]

That is what they claimed, but look how long it was taking to develop new games.  It was two years between games for CMSF to CMBN.  It was only after they added a second programmer that the pace picked up.

In fact, the amount of time to build and release CMBN was no different then CMBO to CMBB.  I thnk it might have been a little longer.   ANd that was with a lot less scope and content.

Well, that's a little unfair - they are a small operation and when you say CMSF in one go like that you are forgetting it includes the original game, marines module, the british module and the nato module.

Granted they were pitched as "packs" but  I think there is a huge underestimation of the amount of sheer leg work it takes to generate all the content and  the scenarios and campaigns for these things. sometimes it appears to me people think all this stuff can be knocked up in a couple of days by a couple of modders.

[RyanE]

I'm not dissing them on how long it took.  CM1 and CM2 are big undertakings for a small company.  Its just that CM2 was supposed to be this huge advancement for them in developing content.  It didn't happen.  It was still five years between CM2 games, unless you count CMA and then its 2 years, for the same amount of content.  In all reality, it is less content.  But it does seem to have increased revenue.  Their pricing model has taken content like CMBO at $50 to a comparable of over $200 counting CMBN, its modules, and a future bulge game.  And even then, you might not get the same content.  Again, I don't hold that against BFC...I'm more than glad to pay.

It took them three years to build and launch CMSF from 2004.  It took until end of 2010 to complete it.  Then it was a almost four years after that for CMBN to get released, even though they had started working on it around 2009.  That is about the same timeframe from CMBO to CMBB, and then to CMAK.  And again, the scopes are narrower.  CMBB and CMAK covered almost the entire western hemisphere from late 1940 to May 1945.  CM1 averaged 2 years between releases.

So I don't think CM2 lived up to the expectations they initially had.  It took adding people to do it.  They seem to have added quite a few people to get anywhere close to what they claimed they would have.  IIRC, it was supposed to be two full games a year and a module every three months.  They have never hit more than a game a year.  In fact, until CMFI, they barely hit a module a year, let alone a game a year.  That's if you don't count CMA.  If you count CMA, they did CMSF Brits and six months later CMA.

Again, its good to see they were willing to adjust their plans and that they can make more money.  So the code reengineering wasn't the driver, it was being able to modularize the content and get the revenue to hire more people.  But the pace of content release is nowhere near what CM1 had, with all of its bad and difficult to work with code.

[Redwolf]

I do think there is a point though where an engine that started development 10 years ago can only go so far.  Multi-core processing, OpenGL sunsetting, 64-bit Windows, etc. are things that are making the CM 2.0 engine seem very dated.  They also seem to have a new programmer who has a better understanding of modern 3D programming.  But he seems somewhat hamstrung by CM's current architecture.

They had to make that decision on CM1 and will have to make that decision on CM2 at some point.

It is a bit of a mystery to me what Phil is actually doing. The Mac port and other tech things have additional programmers in the credits. I think he knowledge of computers such as about virtual memory isn't special. He certainly didn't help cleaning up the download and patch messes. To this day they have no employee who even considers what safe downloading and checksumming would mean.

The 64 bit windows port is probably all done, as the basic code needs to be 64 bit clean for Mac anyway. They don't want to release three binaries for each patch. That's why we don't have a 64 bit windows build.

[Redwolf]

That is what they claimed, but look how long it was taking to develop new games.  It was two years between games for CMSF to CMBN.  It was only after they added a second programmer that the pace picked up.

In fact, the amount of time to build and release CMBN was no different then CMBO to CMBB.  I thnk it might have been a little longer.   ANd that was with a lot less scope and content.

It is a classic case of Second System Effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect

Overall that is too bad. Charles is clearly an outstanding programmer. I think there would have been better way to get more of his work to more people.

[Elvis]

  IIRC, it was supposed to be two full games a year and a module every three months. 

My personal feeling is, regardless of whether they are able do it or not, that there would be diminishing returns if they released that many titles per year. At it is now, most real fans of the game get everything that comes out (or close to it). If you were to release 6 titles a year, even some of those diehards would pass on a lot of things.

[RyanE]

I'm not saying its not the right thing, for many reasons.  But that was stated as one of the few key reasons for the complete rebuild.  My point was it wasn't the code, it was the number of people.  I suspect that comes down to the effort of modeling being way underestimated, as it was in CM1.

[Elvis]

I'm not saying its not the right thing, for many reasons.  But that was stated as one of the few key reasons for the complete rebuild.  My point was it wasn't the code, it was the number of people.  I suspect that comes down to the effort of modeling being way underestimated, as it was in CM1.

I didn't mean to imply that you thought it was a good idea. That comment just stood out to me because I always wondered if it was the right course of action.  I think the current pace is the right one. A good example is how many people here have posted that they got Red Thunder and we're still going strong with Market Garden.  I can only imagine what it would be like if Market Garden came out then 2 months later CMRT then 2 months later a pack for CMFI then 2 months later the Bulge game etc. etc.........

I can't see even the most devoted buying everything. 

[panzerde]

A good example is how many people here have posted that they got Red Thunder and we're still going strong with Market Garden.  I can only imagine what it would be like if Market Garden came out then 2 months later CMRT then 2 months later a pack for CMFI then 2 months later the Bulge game etc. etc.........

I can't see even the most devoted buying everything. 

I can tell you that although I have MG and pre-ordered RT (and think it's the best CM yet), I haven't played a single MG scenario. I didn't have time to get to them because I was still working my way through the FI scenarios!

Now I'm working on my own ideas for scenarios, and I suspect my pace of play will slow even more. If the stuff came out any faster at some point I'd probably start skipping releases or would at least be slower to buy them.

Of course, if CMSF2 or CM:Black Sea were released tomorrow, I'd go buy them despite what I've just said!

[RyanE]

That is what BFC's market boils down to...the majority at this point are almost collectors.  And guessing at the average age of players, BFC might want to accelerate production before its most common customer address is a nursing home.

[TacticalWargames]

Well I'm really pleased we have a developer like Battlefront out there making these types of wargames. Tactical wargames are what I love and my hobby would certainly be alot poorer if they weren't around.

I hope they they are around for a long time yet making the type of game I love.

[Con]

Based on the current situation I bet that they would realize a lot more sales of the Combat Mission Modern Black Sea game set in Ukraine if they released it now!

Battlefront allowed that CMRT has taken more out of them and slipped the Black Sea release from Spring to late Summer.  Still if they threw more resources at it to release it early I think that would be money well spent based on their potential sales having a synergistic pull from real life events and constant media attention to the potential conflict.

Con

[MikeGER]

Based on the current situation I bet that they would realize a lot more sales of the Combat Mission Modern Black Sea game set in Ukraine if they released it now!

Yes,
but Battlefront is known for being shy of releasing stuff that slides to close from fictional to current military history in the making.
That's why CMSF was located in Syria (a good trick to have 'Iraq-style' settings and equipment, without someone can claim to be offended by the game, in a world of ubiquitously political correctness madness)
That's why an IDF module for CMSF was often asked for ....and of course never got produced
(so no user-build 'Gaza strip, drive Terrorists into the sea'-scenarios could surface in the repository)

... I would not be surprised if the "CMSF2"  get delayed until crisis in RL is solved (contained political) or a little shift in theater location/time is also possible.