Scottish Independence

[JudgeDredd]

I've no idea.

Personally I think he is (was?) a great actor who opens his mouth before thinking - and does so the more he gets older.

As for the historical accuracy of Braveheart - well, it was all over the place - but at least people found out who William Wallace was and, more importantly, got them looking. That was a good thing

[bayonetbrant]

http://news.yahoo.com/fear-loathing-sully-debate-scottish-independence-104115437.html

Retired military general Norman Arthur represented Queen Elizabeth in his Scottish neighborhood and is passionate that the country should remain part of the United Kingdom. Stuart Campbell, a pro-independence campaigner based hundreds of miles south in England, disagrees fervently.

But both men have one thing in common: They have called in police after being threatened for their views.

The sinister side of the debate on Scotland's Sept. 18 referendum is coming to the fore as opinion polls narrow on the outcome. The "Better Together" campaign is particularly keen to draw attention to this: Its leader has likened independence champion Alex Salmond to Kim Jong-il, the North Korean autocrat, blaming Salmond for a "culture of intimidation" in Scotland.

"I did hope the campaign would not get hotheaded and beastly," said 83-year-old Arthur, in front of an open fire in the sitting room of his country estate home, framed photographs of the royal family on the windowsill. "But it has. But I won't stop."

Nationalists argue that oil-rich Scotland should be in charge of its own decisions and not have policies it opposes imposed by politicians in London. The rest of the United Kingdom says the union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is strongest and best together.

On average, the latest polls show support for independence - the "Yes" vote - has risen to about 35 percent from 30 percent six months ago, while opposition has dropped to 46 percent from 50 percent and a significant number of voters remain undecided.

But as the poll nears, voters say the atmosphere is making it harder to discuss the issues.

Hostilities have intensified online, some cinemas have pulled campaign ads after viewers complained, posters are being defaced, neighbors have engaged in graffiti wars and the row has resulted in at least one pub brawl.

Pro-unionists have said a Yes vote would be "cataclysmic", feeding the "forces of darkness" at a time when stability is needed. Independence campaigners accuse rivals of "the most miserable, negative, depressing and thoroughly boring campaign in modern political history."

Some verbal attacks have been so vitriolic that the Church of Scotland has intervened to call for calm. Queen Elizabeth also supported church efforts to heal rifts, whatever the outcome.

"I have had the odd abuse but ... they are not going to stop me from speaking and they know it, so what they go after is the softer targets," politician Alistair Darling, head of the Better Together campaign, told Reuters recently. "It really reflects very badly on Scotland."

more at the link

[JudgeDredd]

It IS a very hot subject and like everything involving opinions, can get nasty.

The important thing I think is to just acknowledge that people will vote based on what and who they believe.

From the YES individuals perspective, they can't understand why the NO individuals can't see why Scotland would be better off...and likewise - NO campaigners can't understand why YES campaigners want to break up the union.

The poor people caught in the middle are the people I feel for. I think people have to make up their own minds. No amount of shouting or goading from either side will sway them...and in fact likely have the opposite effect.

[undercovergeek]

clients here have already cancelled conferences at the SECC in september and october and moved them south - not because of business but because theyre advised of an upswing in nationalism if the yes vote comes in September - their advisors (whoever they are) have stated union jacks flying in glasgow will not go down will the morning after

[bayonetbrant]

good to know that the US 'tradition' of overly-divisive rhetoric isn't limited to our shores...

[OJsDad]

good to know that the US 'tradition' of overly-divisive rhetoric isn't limited to our shores...

Where do you think we got it from.   

[Staggerwing]

Apples do land close to the trees.

[JudgeDredd]

Well - there's a debate on STV (Scottish Television) tonight between 8pm and 10pm GMT.

I find it breathtaking that such a HUGE debate - and make no mistake, Scotland's position within the United Kingdom is of huge concern to both Scotland and the rest of the UK - is being shown on a channel in Scotland and not across the rest of the UK.

I know it's for the people of Scotland to decide...but some people may not be in Scotland during the debate.

But more than that, Westminster has time and again got the leaders of all 3 parties (Tories, Liberal Democrats and Labour) to stick their head above the parapet and and shout about staying part of the UK and keeping Westminster as it's governing body and then ducking down again. There's also a very recent call from Mr David Cameron himself to ask the people of the UK to call their friends in Scotland and tell them to stay part of the Union - and yet the debate is not shown on national TV.

Meanwhile, Cameron will not debate will Alex Salmond, saying Alex Salmond is "First Minister" of Scotland and Cameron is "Prime Minister" of the UK - which I feel is a very comprehensive snub.

Anyway - anyone who wishes to watch can actually do so online here
http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/284650-how-to-watch-stvs-alex-salmond-vs-alistair-darling-referendum-debate/

[Barthheart]

What's yer take on this JD? Is it likely to be a close vote either way?

[JudgeDredd]

It'll be close - but (to my personal dismay) Better Together will win on the day....there's too much fear and uncertainty for people to take the chance.

I believe more people will vote no to independence because it's better the devil you know

[Staggerwing]

Assuming independence, just out of curiosity, what would Scotland have for an at-home military capability? Would there be Scots-based units of the current UK that would fall under Scottish control or would there be a need to create a 'national guard' type apparatus to handle any issues such as home-soil terrorism threats or widespread natural disaster since the current regular army units answer to the current UK gov't?

What about coastal and air defence?

[Barthheart]

Another question if I might: Is this a vote for a total break from the UK? Separate economy, money, armed forces/defence etc. or less extreme than that?

I ask because over here we get the Quebec separation thing every 10 to 15 years or so. To try and make it more palatable to the masses in Quebec the separatists try using tactics like "Well, we'll still use theCanadian dollar, and the Canadian Forces will still defend us." Mostly that just infuriates the rest of Canada. But really how can you run a separate country when you economy it directly tied to another through the money and major expenditures?

The last vote here was very close, 51% for staying in Canada. I'm glad it turned out that way but I'm on the other side if the fence from your position.

[JudgeDredd]

Assuming independence, just out of curiosity, what would Scotland have for an at-home military capability? Would there be Scots-based units of the current UK that would fall under Scottish control or would there be a need to create a 'national guard' type apparatus to handle any issues such as home-soil terrorism threats or widespread natural disaster since the current regular army units answer to the current UK gov't?

What about coastal and air defence?

The White paper suggested a small force for self defence and external humanitarian/UN operations. Any scots personnel in the UK armed forces I believe will be given the opportunity to transfer to a Scottish unit, should one of the correct arm be available with recruitment spaces

Coastal and air defence would be under Scottish control and be part of the Scottish Forces.

I'm not sure of the details.

There is unlikely to be any nuclear deterrent based in Scotland. Quite aside from the people that work in the industry, generally the Scots have never really wanted nuclear weapons.

I'm certainly not speaking for everyone here though.

[bayonetbrant]

don't you guys have all (or most) of the UK's shipbuilding capacity?  You could always build aircraft carriers for export :)

[JudgeDredd]

Another question if I might: Is this a vote for a total break from the UK? Separate economy, money, armed forces/defence etc. or less extreme than that?

I ask because over here we get the Quebec separation thing every 10 to 15 years or so. To try and make it more palatable to the masses in Quebec the separatists try using tactics like "Well, we'll still use theCanadian dollar, and the Canadian Forces will still defend us." Mostly that just infuriates the rest of Canada. But really how can you run a separate country when you economy it directly tied to another through the money and major expenditures?

The last vote here was very close, 51% for staying in Canada. I'm glad it turned out that way but I'm on the other side if the fence from your position.

No - it's that extreme...a break from the UK. Money is a sticking point Alex Salmond (SNP for Independence and current Scots First Minister) has suggested Scotland will continue to use the pound. Westminster and all 3 parties (in a totally uncharacteristic union) said NO rather resoundingly.

I agree about Salmonds currency union and I think it was a mistake for him to suggest it.

Forces will be separate.