Trouble in Mosul

[LongBlade]

At this point none. The point is to not step in it in the first place. Maybe the guiding principle is do not start what you cannot see the end of. Easier said than done I know.

In fairness the plan wasn't to abandon Iraq in haste. There were supposed to be some troops there to help bolster the Iraqis.

But someone was determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[JasonPratt]

when you get down to it we still havent seen the end results of WW1 or 2.

Economically either, at least for WW2. We're still basically geared for a wartime economy (minus some more obvious points like aluminum drives), and have been since the 40s.

But someone was determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

But he promised we could go home when the job wasn't done!

I guess more to the point, the only 'job' that could be feasibly 'done' was proper nation-state building, which would take a few generations of coherent effort. Coherent effort?? -- but that's politically un-possible!

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

At this point none. The point is to not step in it in the first place. Maybe the guiding principle is do not start what you cannot see the end of. Easier said than done I know.

In fairness the plan wasn't to abandon Iraq in haste. There were supposed to be some troops there to help bolster the Iraqis.

But someone was determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

I don't think so. It's easy to hand wave saying all would be well with some troops. It is pretty plain to my eye that it would take decades of real occupation to make some change to the long term culture of the region. How long did the UK control India? They now have a real democracy with many of the bad habits of their old culture. The caste system is still real there. The abuse/ rape of women is still rampant. They have not changed that much.

The only way to make an area like your culture is to have civilians (under protection) make a life there. Kind of like the chinatowns of our cities. You would need to make western towns.

Slightly OT
The more years of battling the extremists go by the more I think the Israeli settlements are the only way to have productive lawful areas in palestine.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

The decapitation of reporter James Foley by ISIS, or whatever the F they call themselves has me pissed off in case it is not apparent. I think it is pretty clear what has to happen to that group.

[LongBlade]

I don't think so. It's easy to hand wave saying all would be well with some troops. It is pretty plain to my eye that it would take decades of real occupation to make some change to the long term culture of the region. How long did the UK control India?

I fully agree. We should have stayed in Iraq for decades.

[GDS_Starfury]

hmmm   that one broke my sarcasm meter.

[LongBlade]

hmmm   that one broke my sarcasm meter.

Shouldn't have. I was being serious.

I guess it falls under the you-break-it-you-bought-it school, but really to me it only makes sense. If we really wanted to terraform the Iraqi culture we would need to be there controlling their society (schools, culture, etc) for a generation. Otherwise you just do a quick regime change and leave. There isn't much middle ground.

[Labbug]

One generation would not be enough.  My guess would be 3 to 5 generations.  If 20 years equals one generation, that would mean 60 to 100 years.

[GDS_Starfury]

Im still good with kinetic strikes from orbit.

[Airborne Rifles]

Im still good with kinetic strikes from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

[Gusington]

The above is part of the huge academic debate on whether America wants to be an empire, like the British before WWII. Yiu don't see Americans joining up n the foreign service, there is no American Commonwealth...we are poor at building overseas empires. And like Kev said, that is what is needed in Iraq and 100 other places. Otherwise these places are doomed to be crapholes. That said, who he hell would want to possess Iraq, even with the oil? It's a dante-esque level of hell on earth.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Is there a debate on that? How does it go?
Just the fact the US never made Puerto Rico or the Phillipines a state seems to show a lack of desire for empire.

The most successful method of the west seems to be the openness of the internet. When people admire something they tend to emulate it.

[Boggit]

The decapitation of reporter James Foley by ISIS, or whatever the F they call themselves has me pissed off in case it is not apparent. I think it is pretty clear what has to happen to that group.

I know there are mitigating reasons why it won't happen, but "extermination" was a word that crossed my mind. Am I going down a bad spiral? :o

[Anguille]

The decapitation of reporter James Foley by ISIS, or whatever the F they call themselves has me pissed off in case it is not apparent. I think it is pretty clear what has to happen to that group.

I know there are mitigating reasons why it won't happen, but "extermination" was a word that crossed my mind. Am I going down a bad spiral? :o

Nope...i think it's very normal reaction when facing such barbarism

[LongBlade]

One generation would not be enough.  My guess would be 3 to 5 generations.  If 20 years equals one generation, that would mean 60 to 100 years.

Could be. Germany was denazified in less than a generation. Difficult to say whether the same could be said of Iraq.