Scottish Independence

[bayonetbrant]

Divided we fall, united we stand.

seems I've heard this somewhere before ::)

[Boggit]

Just out of curiosity - and Smcuk can certainly weigh in here - but what were the mechanics of the Czech-Slovak split with regards to military, spending/currency, central banking, laws & courts, etc etc.

Are there lessons to be learned there?

It's certainly got to look better than the Yugoslavia-Croatia split!

This is a huge deal here. A UK with Scotland in it has existed for well over 300 years.

You had a war over secession in the States within 80 odd years from the birth of your country (itself created from a civil war for independence). Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia were created in 1919, doing their splits in different circumstances roughly 70 years after creation. The Union of the United Kingdom has existed long BEFORE any of these countries even existed!

As I write the Scots are my countrymen, and I would die in their defence. Tomorrow a small majority may make them foreigners, with their own agenda of national interest. I am desperately sad at the prospect of the split for lots of reasons. Fortunately the USA is not facing such a situation, but try to imagine what a huge deal it is for people in the UK, especially as we've had no say in it. If the vote is as close as it is now (and it's roughly 50/50) then 3m people will determine direction of the future for 63m people. It's a huge deal.

[Boggit]

don't break up the country for short term euphoria at scoring points over the Tories and the English whipping boy.

Isn't this pretty much the summation of every UK-wide "leave the EU" campaign?

It's a very different issue, although I readily concede at first sight that you'd wonder why. It's very different partly because the EU are NOT our countrymen. The Scots are. While some in the rest of the UK might say good riddance, there are a greater number of us who value the Scottish dimension to our culture. The Scots are a fundamental part of what it is to be a Briton. Scotland is a part of our identity, and especially so if you have Scottish ancestors, as many of us do.

[The Puss]

but try to imagine what a huge deal it is for people in the UK, especially as we've had no say in it. If the vote is as close as it is now (and it's roughly 50/50) then 3m people will determine direction of the future for 63m people. It's a huge deal.

I don't know how it will go tomorrow but no vote before has ever caught my enthusiasm for democracy. The last minute promises from Westminster politicians probably soured feelings all over the UK Boggit. I have no faith in anything promised there so I am voting YES. What a change when all this started, what a confirmed NO I was. Regardless of the result let's hope our snout nosed politicians start to realise that in this social media dominated world telling people, sorry threating people with what they will will lose is a turn off. Try a positive campaign on how you will improve things.

[Boggit]

Boggit, you have put exactly how I feel much more eloquently than I ever could have done.

Thanks Bob. :) While I hope that it turns out to be a "no", good will come from the Independence campaign as it has shaken the whole country, and l'd agree with JudgeDredd it's got the people out of bed and talking. If it turns out a "no" then we need people like JudgeDredd and the "yes" campaigners in the fold working with the rest of us to insist on better representation of all our interests.

[JudgeDredd]

I think the problem is Boggit that the British electorate (including the Scottish) have got lazy. They've let successive government after successive government just do what they wish.

I fear it's too late to save. If it isn't - if there's a NO vote on Friday - then the system HAS to change - because this will come back and it will be stronger next time. So the people of the UK (all just now and perhaps rUK after Friday) NEED to get back in the game - make these people accountable for the shambolic mess they've made over the last 30+ years that I've had an interest in politics (I couldn't vote until I was 23) and change the politics of the country. They have to be accountable.

I will say this - as much as I would like my country to be an independent, proud, upstanding beacon, standing on it's own two feet, not being able to blame England for it's problems and being wholly responsible for itself - I am genuinely deeply sorry for anyone who is going to feel the result of a NO vote has robbed them of their identity. I really am.

[BanzaiCat]

I think you hit the nail on the head, JD, insofar as calling the electorate 'lazy.' That's not a UK issue, either, of course. People are narcissistic assholes now for the most part and are 'meh' on anything that is outside of their vision and past their nose.

[Boggit]

but try to imagine what a huge deal it is for people in the UK, especially as we've had no say in it. If the vote is as close as it is now (and it's roughly 50/50) then 3m people will determine direction of the future for 63m people. It's a huge deal.

I don't know how it will go tomorrow but no vote before has ever caught my enthusiasm for democracy. The last minute promises from Westminster politicians probably soured feelings all over the UK Boggit. I have no faith in anything promised there so I am voting YES. What a change when all this started, what a confirmed NO I was. Regardless of the result let's hope our snout nosed politicians start to realise that in this social media dominated world telling people, sorry threating people with what they will will lose is a turn off. Try a positive campaign on how you will improve things.

The Westminster politicians are despised throughout the country, and like you I cringed when they backed the "no" campaign. It was a bit like Hitler, Mao, and Stalin presenting on behalf of liberal democracy. So if "yes" win instead of Westminster politicians shafting you, you'll be shafted instead by Alex Salmond and his crew, only with less political opposition in Scotland. Do you think we in the English regions trust Westminster any more than you in Scotland? Not at all. We have a huge affinity for what you are saying, but we should be pushing for change together, and there is a strength in numbers. The independence issue has changed the political dynamic, and although my hope is that Scotland stays within the United Kingdom, with the current political impetus we must work with Scotland for a better UK, not a separate one.

[The Puss]

The Westminster politicians are despised throughout the country, and like you I cringed when they backed the "no" campaign. It was a bit like Hitler, Mao, and Stalin presenting on behalf of liberal democracy. So if "yes" win instead of Westminster politicians shafting you, you'll be shafted instead by Alex Salmond and his crew, only with less political opposition in Scotland. Do you think we in the English regions trust Westminster any more than you in Scotland? Not at all. We have a huge affinity for what you are saying, but we should be pushing for change together, and there is a strength in numbers. The independence issue has changed the political dynamic, and although my hope is that Scotland stays within the United Kingdom, with the current political impetus we must work with Scotland for a better UK, not a separate one.

Wee Leck is far from perfect and so are his sidekicks. Politicians are seldom are. I would stay if there was a federal UK on the table.

[Boggit]

I think the problem is Boggit that the British electorate (including the Scottish) have got lazy. They've let successive government after successive government just do what they wish.

I fear it's too late to save. If it isn't - if there's a NO vote on Friday - then the system HAS to change - because this will come back and it will be stronger next time. So the people of the UK (all just now and perhaps rUK after Friday) NEED to get back in the game - make these people accountable for the shambolic mess they've made over the last 30+ years that I've had an interest in politics (I couldn't vote until I was 23) and change the politics of the country. They have to be accountable.

I will say this - as much as I would like my country to be an independent, proud, upstanding beacon, standing on it's own two feet, not being able to blame England for it's problems and being wholly responsible for itself - I am genuinely deeply sorry for anyone who is going to feel the result of a NO vote has robbed them of their identity. I really am.

You and I are not so far apart in our opinions - save for the independence bit. The irony is that since we've locked horns over this our opinions turn out virtually identical despite being in different camps on independence. If it turns out a "No" then get in touch with me again on this matter. The times are changing and we owe it to our families, and our to our country to see that the changes happen for our country's needs. It's a critical time in history, and the opportunity to change our country for the better can't be let slip. If it's a "yes", well good luck, but I have severe concerns that it will be a very painful transition after over 300 years of being one country.

[Boggit]

The Westminster politicians are despised throughout the country, and like you I cringed when they backed the "no" campaign. It was a bit like Hitler, Mao, and Stalin presenting on behalf of liberal democracy. So if "yes" win instead of Westminster politicians shafting you, you'll be shafted instead by Alex Salmond and his crew, only with less political opposition in Scotland. Do you think we in the English regions trust Westminster any more than you in Scotland? Not at all. We have a huge affinity for what you are saying, but we should be pushing for change together, and there is a strength in numbers. The independence issue has changed the political dynamic, and although my hope is that Scotland stays within the United Kingdom, with the current political impetus we must work with Scotland for a better UK, not a separate one.

Wee Leck is far from perfect and so are his sidekicks. Politicians are seldom are. I would stay if there was a federal UK on the table.

That could work. It works in Germany. I'd need to know more about what is entailed, but in principle that could be the compromise that satisfies everyone. At least it doesn't break up the country. Lead on McDuff... ;) :)

[The Puss]

This should have been on the table 2 years ago but the NO were so confident of success they probably never considered it. At times England is just as divided as Scotland. I am sure  those in the north east/west feel disenfranchised from the south east. Hasn't Cornwall always thought itself separate and Yorkshire is a world apart. Tomorrow rolls on regardless. Whether it is YES or NO questions need to  be asked about a centralised government. Just because it suits for 100's of years does not make it the way forward.

[Boggit]

This should have been on the table 2 years ago but the NO were so confident of success they probably never considered it. At times England is just as divided as Scotland. I am sure  those in the north east/west feel disenfranchised from the south east. Hasn't Cornwall always thought itself separate and Yorkshire is a world apart. Tomorrow rolls on regardless. Whether it is YES or NO questions need to  be asked about a centralised government. Just because it suits for 100's of years does not make it the way forward.

I pretty much agree with you. I have two cousins on my Mum's side who are Cornish first, English/Welsh second (my aunt is English/Scots, my uncle is Welsh and speaks Welsh too), British third (and that's without mentioning the Scottish part of their family!). I have no problems whatever with regional loyalties within our nation, and it makes it more interesting to have such a diverse culture. I don't think within families in the UK those regional origins being particularly odd either - on the flip side 2/3 of my Dad's family are Yanks, Canucks, and a few Kiwi's! :o If I add my wife's family ties to it, it all gets even more complex!

I agree with you that whatever happens tomorrow happens. Your point on centralised government is valid, and I think if there is a "no" then as a country we should be seriously looking at Federalisation as an option. I would prefer that to a break up of the country.

[Gusington]

The UK is going to hold a referendum to leave the EU in 2017?? Who knew...

[LongBlade]

The UK is going to hold a referendum to leave the EU in 2017?? Who knew...

I didn't think they ever joined. It's why they have their own currency and not the Euro.