Pike and Shot

[Bletchley_Geek]

Keep in mind that an infantry unit almost always consisted of three parts: a big pike formation in the center, and two smaller blocks of muskets attached to either flank.  So even in the lucky circumstance in which you managed to get both musket blocks to fire together, the effect is still nothing like an eighteenth century volley because the lead simply isn't going to be travelling forward all down the line -- only down parts of it.  The block of pikes in the center of each formation was there because pikes were the main event and did most of the serious dismounted fighting.  When cavalry threatened (usually trotting or walking forwards unless they were Swedish), the musket blocks on the flanks of each formation would disolve and the musketeers would hide in or behind the pikemen. The most fashionable thing to read in military circles of the day were illustrated Greek and Roman treatises on Macedonian phalanx tactics (which may explain why Asclepiodotus survived to modern times).   

That's precisely one of the reasons this period is so interesting. To a great degree, the military thinkers and leaders of the day looked back on the Ancient Greeks for inspiration. I think that has been greatly overlooked on "classical" treatises on the 17th and 18th century.

[DennisS]

I was digging around on Slitherine's website, essentially reading every single bit of information on there.

One comment was interesting..the idea that the Steam price for this game would be inline with the other new Battle Academy titles.

The newest one (which looks pretty darned good, btw) is $39.95, download only.

If this game sells on steam for $40, I am one happy Tercio Commander.

[Cyrano]

OK, because this sort of thing is an obsession of mine, I did some range checking across systems:

Hull's games use 100 yards per hex and require all fire, foot or mounted, to be at one hex range.  One caveat, though, is that his "advancing" fire rule (at a -3 DRM) seems to permit fire at somewhere between one and two hexes of range.  Certainly these rules, given the morale effects of salvo fire particularly, take musket and other small arms' fire to have been quite effective when well employed.

Tiller's Renaissance uses 100 meters per hex and permits fire by muskets out to 4 hexes and hackbutts out to 2.

I can't for the life of me find a stated scale for Pike and Shot, but hackbutts fire out to 2 squares and muskets call 2 short range and 4 long.  The latter halves combat value which would seem similar to the Tiller approach as, in those systems, everything at the longer ranges is, at best, salutory fire which, in games that have ammo limits, forces the player to decide whether they really need to fire at long range.

In all three games artillery is mobile, can be limbered, and is certainly slow moving.

I forgot how much I really do like this period.

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)

[Philippe]

Keep in mind that an infantry unit almost always consisted of three parts: a big pike formation in the center, and two smaller blocks of muskets attached to either flank.  So even in the lucky circumstance in which you managed to get both musket blocks to fire together, the effect is still nothing like an eighteenth century volley because the lead simply isn't going to be travelling forward all down the line -- only down parts of it.  The block of pikes in the center of each formation was there because pikes were the main event and did most of the serious dismounted fighting.  When cavalry threatened (usually trotting or walking forwards unless they were Swedish), the musket blocks on the flanks of each formation would disolve and the musketeers would hide in or behind the pikemen. The most fashionable thing to read in military circles of the day were illustrated Greek and Roman treatises on Macedonian phalanx tactics (which may explain why Asclepiodotus survived to modern times).   

That's precisely one of the reasons this period is so interesting. To a great degree, the military thinkers and leaders of the day looked back on the Ancient Greeks for inspiration. I think that has been greatly overlooked on "classical" treatises on the 17th and 18th century.

I think there is a more practical side to this period's interest in classical warfare.  By the end of the Middle Ages it had become clear that a well-ordered pike formation could probably stand up to just about anything that it came up against (except a Spanish Tercio).  This quibble asside, it was clear to anybody involved in the military that if you were going to raise an army, especially if you were raising it from scratch, you needed training manuals.  Those ancient texts actually tell you in fairly minute detail how to put a bunch of pikemen through their paces, and exactly what those paces were.  Many of the sixteenth and seventh century editions are illustrated, and, not surprisingly, they don't show pictures of antique Graeco-Roman pikemen, they usually show pikemen carrying halberds and wearing morions and breastplates.  The Laconian counter-march did not just live in the ancient texts, it was probably practised on the drilling fields and battle fields of 16th and 17th century Europe.

And when Delbrueck was reconstructing what went on in ancient battles by having German high school students march around their football fields in close formations, guess which texts he was using to figure out how they should do it?

[Bletchley_Geek]

I think there is a more practical side to this period's interest in classical warfare.  By the end of the Middle Ages it had become clear that a well-ordered pike formation could probably stand up to just about anything that it came up against (except a Spanish Tercio).  This quibble asside, it was clear to anybody involved in the military that if you were going to raise an army, especially if you were raising it from scratch, you needed training manuals.  Those ancient texts actually tell you in fairly minute detail how to put a bunch of pikemen through their paces, and exactly what those paces were.  Many of the sixteenth and seventh century editions are illustrated, and, not surprisingly, they don't show pictures of antique Graeco-Roman pikemen, they usually show pikemen carrying halberds and wearing morions and breastplates.  The Laconian counter-march did not just live in the ancient texts, it was probably practised on the drilling fields and battle fields of 16th and 17th century Europe.

And when Delbrueck was reconstructing what went on in ancient battles by having German high school students march around their football fields in close formations, guess which texts he was using to figure out how they should do it?

With my previous post I wasn't saying that this was just a theoretical exercise - they were aware of the Ancients ways' and probably used treatises "rediscovered" during the 15th and 16th century as inspiration. To what degree they adhered to the same drills used by Alexander's phalangites, I can't say  :)

[Jack Nastyface]

In addition, Peter Wilson (Europe's Tragedy) and Ben Hull (the Musket and Pike games) think that musketry was relatively effective and that matchlocks were relatively reliable.  We know that during the 30-years war the loses when infantry fought infantry were pretty big and all armies steadily increased their muskets and steadily reduced their pikes.  Plus musketry was what made entrenchments a common tactic and made it very costly to assault entrenchements.

FWIW...I am currently reading Diane Purkiss' excellent The English Civil War: A People's History and it is filled with accounts of wounds & deaths from musketry, pistol and cannons.  Of course, much of the fighting that occurs during the ECW is either "skirmish level" or seige stuff than large set-piece battles, so this will have a profound impact on the kind of fighting and therefore weaponry that one sees used.

[Apocalypse 31]

If this game sells on steam for $40, I am one happy Tercio Commander.

I think it's kind of expensive for a  Battle Academy mod

[Cyrano]

With absolutely no knowledge of the circumstances, I'll predict it sells for less.  This is a niche product if ever there was one and they know they must compete on price.

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)

[jomni]

I'll probably end up buying this despite my criticism.  Found myself reading up on the 30 years war for the past few days.

[Nefaro]

With absolutely no knowledge of the circumstances, I'll predict it sells for less.  This is a niche product if ever there was one and they know they must compete on price.

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)

Well.. it's also Slitherine.  :P

[Tpek]

I didn't bother reading the rest of the thread, but has anyone picked this up yet?
(Seems to have been released today via Matrix)

[jomni]

Supposed to be today but I don't see it in the store.

[Tpek]

My bad, guess it's still unavailable. :(

[Tpek]

Now it is available:
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/537/details/Pike.&.Shot

http://www.slitherine.com/games/pike_shot_pc

[jomni]

Now it is available:
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/537/details/Pike.&.Shot

http://www.slitherine.com/games/pike_shot_pc

Yep.  USD30.  I bought it.  Waiting for the Steam version to activate.