The Uber Warhammer 40,000: Armageddon Thread!

[jomni]

As I haven't read the manual, there is an option for "rest and refit" and "replacements". 
When are these different actions used?  I think fatigue is in the game am I not mistaken.

[JasonPratt]

Of course, the only reason one can get away with it in the tutorials is that (so far for me anyway) the training guards don't initiate shootbacks or maneuver!

First, you've got to decide what range to move your unit into because different platforms have different ranges or composite ranges depending on the weapon system and a main part of this game is trying to shoot at the other people from standoff distance if possible. But picking good cover to fire from is important, too. But that cover could screw with your line of sight -- but that might be a defensive bonus for you as well. (In some ways the game plays like everyone has Panzer General Arty capabilities! -- though that's still not true, only true arty can shoot over blocking terrain, though some units other than arty can support nearby units defensively. Other units will charge in for a melee attack after the ranged shooting, and possibly only have a melee attack -- this is rather abstracted in the game but it's similar to FantasyWars/ElvenLegacy mechanics.)

Then moving the unit there might not be entirely safe because there are two somewhat subtle terrains which will damage most units crossing them.

Once you've figured out the range you want to fight at, your unit may fail a morale check and not attack at all. (Or possibly not move either, I haven't been able to determine that or not.) That's rare and tends to happen only under certain situations, but if the game follows codex enough that's just about the only purpose for flamer units for example since they only have a zero-range (melee) attack. (The game isn't clear about whether they specially eat enemy morale. But the game mechanic is there. One mode of rest which uses no requisition points recovers morale a bit.)

Is the target in LOS? If blocked nothing happens. Otherwise any shot has a percentage chance of hitting the blockage instead.

Is the target in a fortification? Then that increase the chance the shot bounces off the fort armor. (I don't know if there's any way of reducing fort armor per se in the game.)

Is the target in cover? That increases the chance of a miss.

Your unit's intrinsic aim (ranged and melee for appropriate weapons on your unit) affects chances to miss, too.

So does the specific aim percentages of each weapon.

Some weapons negate some percentage of the target's armor resistance. Otherwise the armor may absorb any hit on target by any weapon. (Again, armor doesn't seem to be destroyable per se; maybe in a future game.)

How many individuals are in the unit? I think they all take a shot, which means large groups of infantry with mere lasguns can be important.

Oh, and then that particular weapon may shoot multiple times. So those 20 weak troops with lasguns are hitting their target 60 times!

Each shot that punches through all that to land a damaging hit damages health of a unit first; so a group of 20 orcs with 3 health are going to be a lot harder to knock out than a group of 20 humies with 1 health, even assuming parity of weapon, environmental factors, skill, etc.

Does your unit have two or three different weapon types? They get to attack, too.

Wait -- does your target have higher initiative? He may get to shoot first on the defensive! And however many of your unit this kills, won't be contributing to your attack after all! Congratulations, you were just murdered by the eldar. (Not in this game, but I expect that's how that would work.)

Then factor in the usual PGish defensive support shooters, including whether they have initiative enough to hit you first.

So, it's a lot more complicated than most PG variant games.

One thing I haven't seen in the game yet is resupply for fuel and ammo, which is a major tactical factor for most PGish games.

[JasonPratt]

Jomni,

replacements is the usual PG command. I notice that "elite replacements" doesn't seem to be an option; I don't know if that's automatic or just not included as an option. My guess at the moment is that it just isn't included; but this kind of setting tends to be very meat grindery anyway.

Rest and refit brings morale back up a bit and {checking} also replenishes ammo. Huh. So ammo is a consideration. This could stand to be A LOT more obvious: running out of ammo is dangerous, and so for most PGish games being clear on your ammo reserves and managing resupply is utterly crucial.

[Jarhead0331]

So I'm enjoying the game, BUT it is not without its faults. i believe the fact that it is a WH40K game is a significant part of what is keeping it afloat, and what is also dragging it down.  On the one hand, I like seeing the 40K units. The models are really well done and the OOB is impressive. It will make any 40K fan smile.  However, on the other hand, the battles do not feel like 40K.  The campaign is pretty weak. Your actions in the field have no impact on the path of the campaign. I'm victorious in every mission, yet hive after hive still falls and the situation continues to deteriorate rapidly. WH40K battles are epic, and this game fails to convey that. i have three tanks, 4 or 5 infantry units, some artillery, assorted vehicles and an airplane. Hardly an epic fighting force. Combat just washes across the relatively small maps without conveying any sense of battle on a massive scale. If we were talking about small units and tactical battles, this wouldn't be such an issue, but there are cities depicted on the map and the story is talking about thousands and thousands of units battling for hives which house untold millions.  Perhaps even worse, the AI seems to be pretty brain dead. I'm on the 4th or 5th mission of the main campaign and I'm yet to be challenged. In fact, I haven't even lost a unit. According to the story, Imperial units are being wiped out, yet my battalion is yet to lose a single squad. If this situation doesn't change, this issue will haunt this game and prevent non-40K fans from finding any enjoyment here.

So far, it just doesn't feel very strategic. There is really only one tactic that is necessary to win...concentration of firepower. Keep your units in fair sized groups and they can wear the enemy down every time. Sure, its nice to take positions on the map that appear to strengthen your defense, but its hard to tell how much of a difference this is really making. Find the enemy, group your units, concentrate firepower, etc. This will get old for those who don't care to follow the story or who do not have any strong feelings toward the 40K universe.

The game is not bad...its the first turn based wargame set in the 40K universe that we have had in a very long time. For that, I'm thankful, but this game could have been so much more than it is.

[Grim.Reaper]

Thanks for the detailed impressions JH, that helps a lot, along with everyone else's thoughts.  I have been following along in the official forums and it seems like the discussions sway back and forth about it.  Stepping on my soapbox for a moment......I said "forums", which continues to drive me crazy that Matrix and Slitherine continue to operate multiple forums to discuss their games!  Now with them releasing on Steam, it adds a third forum for game discussions.  I know they can't do anything about the Steam forum, but it is about time they figure out how to consolidate their forums and web sites...can't figure out for the life of me why it needs to be separate....believe they mentioned it would be hard to do, but come on they are not the first company to have a merger that requires their technology assets to be combined.

Back to the game....the other thing I have noticed (granted it is me just observing what other people say) is it seems the game was released without the normal polish....not sure if these are all true, but seems people discussing things like.....

-  Hotseat mode is advertised as included, but as of right now I believe they took it out from the release to fix it....if that is the case, probably a good idea to remove it from the product description until truly available.

-  People seem to mention that ammo management was discussed as part of the game, but was not included in the release because of issues...not sure if true or not

-  When people are creating their own scenarios, appears to be an issue where there is no way to load them in the game....I am sure can be taken care of in a patch but I saw a post by the publisher that basically acknowledged they likely didn't spend enough time testing it because they were focused on other things.

-  In the published user manual, it says the game is compatible with Windows XP, but on the product pages it isn't listed and the game won't work.  Not a big deal for me since nobody should use XP anymore since unsupported, but still shows a little slippage on quality control.

-  Seems like folks are largely put off by the lack of information included in the game and manual on the mechanics and such...especially harder for non-warhammer experts

The developer/publisher has acknowledged these issues and basically said this is just the start and they will continue updating for years to come...I am sure the issues/bugs will be worked out.  In the end these things are not game killers by any means, especially for me, so still a good chance I'll jump in at some point since looking for something a little different to play.

[Grimnirsson]

The game is not bad

Well Jar, first you start listing some severe issues (brain dead AI, no epic battles, no thrill because you haven't lost anyone, narrative vs actual gameplay, one winning tactic, repetitive battles etc.) which count double for someone loving the W40k lore...and then your bottom line is...it's not a bad game? Actually it sounds like a pretty bad game to me based on the negative points you made...  ???

[Jarhead0331]

The game is not bad

Well Jar, first you start listing some severe issues (brain dead AI, no epic battles, no thrill because you haven't lost anyone, narrative vs actual gameplay, one winning tactic, repetitive battles etc.) which count double for someone loving the W40k lore...and then your bottom line is...it's not a bad game? Actually it sounds like a pretty bad game to me based on the negative points you made...  ???

You are only reading what you want to and selectively quoting. You started off talking trash about the game before it was even released. So I'm not surprised you are looking for reasons to hate on it. In truth, what I said, if you read it again, is I'm enjoying the game, I like the 40k units and I am impressed with the OOB. I love wh40k and being able to play with the units brings me enjoyment. I also enjoy moving through the campaign to see what new units get unlocked. Therefore, for me, it's not a bad game.

But don't quote me selectively and then insinuate that I'm not being honest in my assessment, that is not fair to me or the game.

[MikeGER]

in the editor under the unit editor menu is a Combat Simulator where you can test one units against another with a given set of parameters

here i let 7 Walkers attack 7 Walkers in a crater


it does 100 fights and the you can check each of the rolls for the result in detail with the Combat Log



there is a tremendous detail hidden under hood.... :)


For my immersion i see the units shown on the map as Miniatures with a plexi-baseplate, so the map shines through.
A Miniature can be up to 30 squads/firegroups/or individuals soldiers if you like to immagine in case of a footunit-Miniature 
or just a maybe 7 Walkers, or just a few small tanks, or one big tank or Titan

Now those components in a unit-group (represented by the miniature) has different number of hitpoints to get degraded to kill the unit ...a single walker has two hit points.       

[Grimnirsson]

Well,  I am rather confused about your aggressive reply and I don't understand it, it was not my intention to rain on your parade here, but ok, here we go.

You are only reading what you want to and selectively quoting. You started off talking trash about the game before it was even released. So I'm not surprised you are looking for reasons to hate on it. In truth, what I said, if you read it again, is I'm enjoying the game, I like the 40k units and I am impressed with the OOB. I love wh40k and being able to play with the units brings me enjoyment. I also enjoy moving through the campaign to see what new units get unlocked. Therefore, for me, it's not a bad game.

Excuse me?? Talking trash about the game? Which means if I understand this correctly, to talk nonsense, to utter complete fabrications, especially when one knows them to be untrue. Where did I do that? I'm not reading what I want to read and I don't quote selectively, I read what you wrote and quoted the issues you pointed out which in your text make up 90% of what was written. I see more red (negative) than green (positive) comments here, so who is selective?

So I'm enjoying the game, BUT it is not without its faults. i believe the fact that it is a WH40K game is a significant part of what is keeping it afloat, and what is also dragging it down.  On the one hand, I like seeing the 40K units. The models are really well done and the OOB is impressive. It will make any 40K fan smile.  However, on the other hand, the battles do not feel like 40K.  The campaign is pretty weak. Your actions in the field have no impact on the path of the campaign. I'm victorious in every mission, yet hive after hive still falls and the situation continues to deteriorate rapidly. WH40K battles are epic, and this game fails to convey that. i have three tanks, 4 or 5 infantry units, some artillery, assorted vehicles and an airplane. Hardly an epic fighting force. Combat just washes across the relatively small maps without conveying any sense of battle on a massive scale. If we were talking about small units and tactical battles, this wouldn't be such an issue, but there are cities depicted on the map and the story is talking about thousands and thousands of units battling for hives which house untold millions.  Perhaps even worse, the AI seems to be pretty brain dead. I'm on the 4th or 5th mission of the main campaign and I'm yet to be challenged. In fact, I haven't even lost a unit. According to the story, Imperial units are being wiped out, yet my battalion is yet to lose a single squad. If this situation doesn't change, this issue will haunt this game and prevent non-40K fans from finding any enjoyment here.

So far, it just doesn't feel very strategic. There is really only one tactic that is necessary to win...concentration of firepower. Keep your units in fair sized groups and they can wear the enemy down every time. Sure, its nice to take positions on the map that appear to strengthen your defense, but its hard to tell how much of a difference this is really making. Find the enemy, group your units, concentrate firepower, etc. This will get old for those who don't care to follow the story or who do not have any strong feelings toward the 40K universe.

The game is not bad...its the first turn based wargame set in the 40K universe that we have had in a very long time. For that, I'm thankful, but this game could have been so much more than it is.

So in total you are talking about rather severe issues that in my book count as negative points and then you say, "but I think it's a good game" because you like the theme and are happy with the OOB? I'm not insinuating you are dishonest, I was only mightily confused about this conclusion after reading what you don't like about the game. In a review that would come across a bit strange...

And what about this nonsense that I need reasons to hate this game? Who is insinuating something here? I don't hate the game, I am disappointed that they used this way to represent the W40k universe for us wargamers, that's what I was saying even before release and have I not the right to do so? That's trash talking for you? I see... I don't look for reasons to hate games, what do you think how old I am? I just might have an opinion on a game just like everybody else and yes, that can include games that I didn't play but of which I know enough to build an opinion on. And if someone writes a text with more negative than positive points mentioned I am confused if the résumé is a positive one, it's simple as that.

[undercovergeek]

so theyve got the OOB and the GW 'figures' right? its very, nearly almost enough to purchase but if the underlying game as everyone suspected, doesnt represent a GW universe i dont think its a buy

putting space marines in a game isnt enough reason to make me buy it

almost but not enough

[Jarhead0331]

Well,  I am rather confused about your aggressive reply and I don't understand it, it was not my intention to rain on your parade here, but ok, here we go.

My reply wasn't aggressive. But the nature of your heated and completely unnecessary response proves the very point I was trying to make. You are looking for excuses to hate this game.

Excuse me?? Talking trash about the game? Which means if I understand this correctly, to talk nonsense, to utter complete fabrications, especially when one knows them to be untrue. Where did I do that? I'm not reading what I want to read and I don't quote selectively, I read what you wrote and quoted the issues you pointed out which in your text make up 90% of what was written. I see more red (negative) than green (positive) comments here, so who is selective?

You're excused. Yes, you've been trash talking the game...no, it does not mean "nonsense" or "utter complete fabrications..." It means simply being negative. Where did you do that?  How about here:

It seems so and I am underwhelmed by the gfx...these little men look like...I dunno...not like SM or brutish Orcs. There might still be a good game in there, but the pics don't make me grab my CC.  ???

How about here?

The trailer says nothing actually about the game, just a few images and some narrative, no ingame stuff, not very convincing...

And the 'preview' is not much better, description how the most basic features of any Panzer Corps game work...I dunno, nothing so far really makes me want to buy this game although I'm a huge W40k fan...

Want more? Here:

Yeah, without a demo and the still extremely PC gameplay feel from the trailer and the fact it's 30€ over here...I'll pass

Still not convinced? Here:

>Would be better if the engine was enhanced to make the unit icons animated.

That's why I never understood why they didn't use the Battle Academy engine for this...it would have been just perfect but no, the PC engine it had to be.  >:( And even if the game has new features it's still looking like a PC mod to me, just with new units and new features. But the game can't deny who it's daddy is...and for a mod like game like this, it's too expensive.

Jury still out? Here:

If you never played PC before it's a new experience then for you, so I suppose you might be happy with the game. Personally I love PC for what it is and have all the games here on my HDD but as a W40k fan I was simply expecting something more fresh than that.

Sure...you've been entirely impartial...and I'm the Pope.

So in total you are talking about rather severe issues that in my book count as negative points and then you say, "but I think it's a good game" because you like the theme and are happy with the OOB? I'm not insinuating you are dishonest, I was only mightily confused about this conclusion after reading what you don't like about the game. In a review that would come across a bit strange...

I don't need to argue with you about MY feelings on the game. I'm sorry you can't handle the fact that simply because I point out faults, its not ok for me to still enjoy myself in a game I already have close to 5 hours invested in. This only points to the fact that you want this game to fail and do not want anything positive posted about this. Are you trying to convince yourself not to buy it? Either way, too God damn bad. Yes, the game has problems, but yes, I'm still enjoying it. Get over it.

And what about this nonsense that I need reasons to hate this game? Who is insinuating something here? I don't hate the game, I am disappointed that they used this way to represent the W40k universe for us wargamers, that's what I was saying even before release and have I not the right to do so? That's trash talking for you? I see... I don't look for reasons to hate games, what do you think how old I am? I just might have an opinion on a game just like everybody else and yes, that can include games that I didn't play but of which I know enough to build an opinion on. And if someone writes a text with more negative than positive points mentioned I am confused if the résumé is a positive one, it's simple as that.

Based on your response, I'd guess you're about 12 years old. Am I close?

[Gusington]

Looks I will be waiting a bit for a price drop.

[Yskonyn]

JH in all fairness, your quotes don't really support your claim towards him trash talking about the game. His comments were just sceptical and he is free to do so. If being sceptical is regarded as trash talk then there is a lot of trash talking going around here. :)
I am a neutral party here, but I also got the feeling you came down on him a bit agressively.
I have no idea if you two had a beef before, but he doesn't particularly come across as looking for a reason to hate on the game no matter what.

Perhaps its a lost in translation thing or something, but you two should grab a virtual cold one and drink together.
I really dont think there is ill wished intent here from either of you.

[Jarhead0331]

JH in all fairness, your quotes don't really support your claim towards him trash talking about the game. His comments were just sceptical and he is free to do so. If being sceptical is regarded as trash talk then there is a lot of trash talking going around here. :)
I am a neutral party here, but I also got the feeling you came down on him a bit agressively.
I have no idea if you two had a beef before, but he doesn't particularly come across as looking for a reason to hate on the game no matter what.

Perhaps its a lost in translation thing or something, but you two should grab a virtual cold one and drink together.
I really dont think there is ill wished intent here from either of you.

Thanks for your opinion. There certainly isn't any ill intent on my part. But his response was a bit too off putting for me. I don't have to tolerate that on my own site.

Oh, and I would like to add that I am entitled to my opinion, as well. I do not appreciate the insinuation that I am being dishonest in my assessment of the game because I point out faults. I do not need to be told that I can't possibly enjoy the game because of the problems I have noted. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

[Grimnirsson]

My response wasn't 'heated' I simply explained why for me your conclusion is not in harmony with the description of your actual game experience, that's all. But I don't think I want to waste my time with your silly assumptions anymore what my motivations regarding this game are or might be and for the record you are aggressive and insulting.

But his response was a bit too off putting for me. I don't have to tolerate that on my own site.

Oh, the owner is speaking, admin mode on now...ok, you are of course right, you don't have to tolerate my opinion on your site.

Good bye.