WITP-AE questions

[glen55]

I've been reading a little Guadalcanal naval history recently, and it got me itching to find some Pacific theater combat.  Really, there's no theater in history that combines major air, land and ground operations over a period of time between two well-matched foes (at least well-matched early on).  Against my better instincts, I picked up WITP-AE and was quickly reminded of why I had never bought this thing: no AI control of theaters. . . .   
:o

Anyway, a couple of questions.  I just read through an old thread from this site about how hard the game is to learn.  What if you have played WITP, knew it pretty well, and could knock out a normal turn in 15-20 minutes.  How much is that WITP knowledge going to help me with WITP-AE?  Is it so different that I should just try to start from scratch and learn it before playing, or can I dive in and do the same kind of stuff I did in WITP?

2nd question: I'm really really not interested in playing the Sino-Japanese ground war, especially in a game system that was designed to emphasize naval and air combat with ground war as the crazy aunt in the attic.  What are people's experiences with ignoring or half-assing China.  Will the other side gain a huge advantage from it in the real part of the war down in the SoPac and CenPac?

3rd question: This one is more specific.  In Uncommon Valour, which I think came out AFTER WITP (is that right), shore batteries were really OP at resisting invasions and your invasion escort would just sit there and let them pound your transports unless you specifically sent in bombardment TFs first (which, of course, didn't happen at all in the actual Operation Watchtower).  Do you still have to put in a major, massive effort against shore batteries before invading anywhere?

Those are my questions, and depending on the answers, I may never actually play this game - but I just might.

I'll throw in a quick story-time.  I actually played the War In The Pacific board game back in the '70s.  It was so big that the only way we could play it was to nail a big piece of tin on the wall, nail the map onto the piece of tin, and buy these little magnetized chit-holders to put all the pieces up on the wall.  We actually got through about September of '42.  My opponent had a clever strategy that he was going to bring the American carriers around through the Atlantic and hit Java with a surprise attack from the West.  His only little problem was that I totally guessed his strategy, based on how vital Java was to my war effort - and also based on how handy Djakarta was as a base, since you could draw a lot of your fleet oil straight from the horse's mouth instead of having to round-trip it through Japan.  When the American carriers showed up the whole Kido Butai and a buttload of land-based planes were sitting there waiting on them and sunk ALL the American carriers, while he barely even marred the paint job on my stuff. 


I couldn't really blame Mike for not wanting to go on after that.

[MengJiao]

Anyway, a couple of questions.  I just read through an old thread from this site about how hard the game is to learn.  What if you have played WITP, knew it pretty well, and could knock out a normal turn in 15-20 minutes.  How much is that WITP knowledge going to help me with WITP-AE?  Is it so different that I should just try to start from scratch and learn it before playing, or can I dive in and do the same kind of stuff I did in WITP?

2nd question: I'm really really not interested in playing the Sino-Japanese ground war, especially in a game system that was designed to emphasize naval and air combat with ground war as the crazy aunt in the attic.  What are people's experiences with ignoring or half-assing China.  Will the other side gain a huge advantage from it in the real part of the war down in the SoPac and CenPac?

3rd question: This one is more specific.  In Uncommon Valour, which I think came out AFTER WITP (is that right), shore batteries were really OP at resisting invasions and your invasion escort would just sit there and let them pound your transports unless you specifically sent in bombardment TFs first (which, of course, didn't happen at all in the actual Operation Watchtower).  Do you still have to put in a major, massive effort against shore batteries before invading anywhere?

Answers: WIPAE isn't fundamentally all that different from WItP. 

2:  I always ignore China as much as possible.  You could find a PBEM opponent who feels the same way and there is a "quiet china" scenario out there.  the Japanese can win the game there, but even when I was the Japanese (and with my Chinese name) I avoided doing much in China.

3:  Uncommon Valor came before WitP.  In WitPAE shore batteries and minefields can be brutal (eg. don't go near Corrigador if you are Japanese before you take it from the land side), but as a rule they are nowhere near as dangerous as Aircraft, ships and submarines most of the time.

[Toonces]

Hey Glen-

1.  Agreed.  WitP isn't all that different from AE.  AE just has many more details and more minutia. 

2.  I think you're ok with half-assing China.  Although I've never played more than about a full year of AE, I never spent too much time in China.  I guess you do have to spend some time moving things around, though, or you're going to lose a lot of points for lost troops, planes, and ships.  Maybe give it a little attention- like 10% or less of any given turn and I suppose you should be alright.

3.  UV came out before WitP.  And sadly I don't know the answer to your question.

AE is a fantastic, but thorough game.  I think you'll appreciate any time invested in getting good at it.  It seems to be pretty well received at Matrix.

[MengJiao]

Hey Glen-

3.  UV came out before WitP.  And sadly I don't know the answer to your question.

  In WitPAE, amphibious task forces will not only fire to suppress shore batteries, but smaller ships of the task force will go in close with each landing waves to suppress even field guns, possibly depending on their skill.

[BigBlueFleet]

I've been reading a little Guadalcanal naval history recently, and it got me itching to find some Pacific theater combat.  Really, there's no theater in history that combines major air, land and ground operations over a period of time between two well-matched foes (at least well-matched early on).  Against my better instincts, I picked up WITP-AE and was quickly reminded of why I had never bought this thing: no AI control of theaters. . . .   
:o

Anyway, a couple of questions.  I just read through an old thread from this site about how hard the game is to learn.  What if you have played WITP, knew it pretty well, and could knock out a normal turn in 15-20 minutes.  How much is that WITP knowledge going to help me with WITP-AE?  Is it so different that I should just try to start from scratch and learn it before playing, or can I dive in and do the same kind of stuff I did in WITP?

2nd question: I'm really really not interested in playing the Sino-Japanese ground war, especially in a game system that was designed to emphasize naval and air combat with ground war as the crazy aunt in the attic.  What are people's experiences with ignoring or half-assing China.  Will the other side gain a huge advantage from it in the real part of the war down in the SoPac and CenPac?

3rd question: This one is more specific.  In Uncommon Valour, which I think came out AFTER WITP (is that right), shore batteries were really OP at resisting invasions and your invasion escort would just sit there and let them pound your transports unless you specifically sent in bombardment TFs first (which, of course, didn't happen at all in the actual Operation Watchtower).  Do you still have to put in a major, massive effort against shore batteries before invading anywhere?

Those are my questions, and depending on the answers, I may never actually play this game - but I just might.

I'll throw in a quick story-time.  I actually played the War In The Pacific board game back in the '70s.  It was so big that the only way we could play it was to nail a big piece of tin on the wall, nail the map onto the piece of tin, and buy these little magnetized chit-holders to put all the pieces up on the wall.  We actually got through about September of '42.  My opponent had a clever strategy that he was going to bring the American carriers around through the Atlantic and hit Java with a surprise attack from the West.  His only little problem was that I totally guessed his strategy, based on how vital Java was to my war effort - and also based on how handy Djakarta was as a base, since you could draw a lot of your fleet oil straight from the horse's mouth instead of having to round-trip it through Japan.  When the American carriers showed up the whole Kido Butai and a buttload of land-based planes were sitting there waiting on them and sunk ALL the American carriers, while he barely even marred the paint job on my stuff. 


I couldn't really blame Mike for not wanting to go on after that.

1. Past WITP knowledge should get you off and running.  My advice as I give all just starting the grand campaign is play the first 30 days saving your first turn and then start over until you understand most rules.  Playing as the Allies you can make mistakes and still get after it when all your new toys come online.

2. One of the patches introduced quiet China if that's not your cup of tea.  Keep in mind small islands and atolls have troop restrictions unlike WITP.

3. It all depends on the size of the shore batteries. If heavy guns are encountered you definitely need counter fire.  When I expect heavy resistance I have bombardment TF & CA's or antiquated BB's embedded with the invasion TF as they tend to soak up more fire and of course are better armored.

[JasonPratt]

Wait, go back a minute: no theater AI?? Not sure what that means; I've never cracked open the AE, but WitP (and even Warplan Orange, which I played more) had the ability to assign operations for any region to the AI, as many as one wanted.  ???

Did AE get rid of that, or did you mean something else, Glen?

[BigBlueFleet]

Wait, go back a minute: no theater AI?? Not sure what that means; I've never cracked open the AE, but WitP (and even Warplan Orange, which I played more) had the ability to assign operations for any region to the AI, as many as one wanted.  ???

Did AE get rid of that, or did you mean something else, Glen?

Hi Jason.  No theatre specific (or better yet , region specific) AI at your disposal.

[JasonPratt]

Weird. They must have taken it out because of difficulties having it mesh with whatever region the player wanted to manage.

[glen55]

Yes, for some reason they have said it's impossible to assign theater control to the AI with the new global AI.

Thanks to all for the answers, they are encouraging. I'm especially going to look for that quiet China variant. Still probably not going to rush into anything, but considering I just started a new WITP history last night (Shattered Sword, highly recommended by a groggy friend), my interest can only build.

[jomni]

Weird. They must have taken it out because of difficulties having it mesh with whatever region the player wanted to manage.

They say the AI in AE is more cunning because it is not broken down  into regions.

[Toonces]

My understanding is that the theater AI didn't really work very well in vanilla WitP anyway.  Certainly none of the serious players on Matrix used it (from what I've read).

[glen55]

My understanding is that the theater AI didn't really work very well in vanilla WitP anyway.  Certainly none of the serious players on Matrix used it (from what I've read).

I'm sure if you were in a competitive PBEM game against a veteran, you have to do what you can unless you're playing with house rules, but I sure used it in single-player, and not having it is a serious consideration in playing WITP-AE.  I was interested in the naval war in the south & central Pacific, and still am.  The Sino-Japanese war and even the Brit-Japanese conflict in SE Asia and Burma are of markedly less interest because they're entirely different sorts of wars. 

The point of turning part of the war over to the AI is to just get a relatively neutral result from that sector.  Sure, the islands in the South China Sea are of great strategic importance, but so long as the AI is running both sides of the struggle over them, it is going to produce a result that doesn't massively impact the U.S.-Japanese naval war.  In my game, the Japanese swept through that area in '42 just as in reality.

[jomni]

Which leads to another approach...
those not interested in managing every theater or micro details can also enjoy Vanilla WITP instead. No need to jump to AE.

[MengJiao]

My understanding is that the theater AI didn't really work very well in vanilla WitP anyway.  Certainly none of the serious players on Matrix used it (from what I've read).

I'm sure if you were in a competitive PBEM game against a veteran, you have to do what you can unless you're playing with house rules, but I sure used it in single-player, and not having it is a serious consideration in playing WITP-AE.  I was interested in the naval war in the south & central Pacific, and still am.  The Sino-Japanese war and even the Brit-Japanese conflict in SE Asia and Burma are of markedly less interest because they're entirely different sorts of wars. 

  You can always rationalize that as the Japanese are really the Japanese Navy -- who thought the whole China and Russia orientation of the Japanese Army was a huge waste of time.  All the Navy wanted was the Dutch East Indies and Singapore and Manila and Cam Ran Bay.  The Army wanted to conquer China or at least keep a lot of puppet states there as well as eventually crushing Russia (a bad plan -- let's face it).

   Anyway, I've been the Japs in WitPAE and Witp so much that I long ago took the (paradoxically chinese I guess) game-name MengJiao and I always neglected China and I always lost.  There's a lesson there somewhere.

   So: don't play the Japs if you want to neglect China.  My current formula for PBEM victory is: Number One: Don't be the Japs; Number Two: Neglect China  which enables Number Three: keep the turns simple enough by neglecting China so that you play the game long enough to win as the Allies.

[jomni]

The war in the Pacific was waged to support the war in China anyway.