News from Ukraine Conflict

[Gusington]

In Russia, mortgage devours you after 30 years.

[pawelj]

On a different subject, and I know that this may not be popular, the Russians actually have legitimate interests in Ukraine, however thuggishly and inappropriately they are going about pursuing them. 70 years ago parts of Russia had just been liberated from armies sent from the rest of Europe who had killed 20 MILLION Russians. Now, the Russians weren't saints themselves, but you can imagine the impact on their national psyche, especially because it had just happened first 25 years previously. And they have been saying since the end of the Cold War that they wouldn't tolerate the advance of NATO to their borders, meaning Ukraine and Belarus, so the current conflict shouldn't come as a real surprise once Ukraine started getting too cozy with the west for moscow's liking. Again, not justifying, just explaining their perspective.

And on another note, there have been people In this discussion who have suggested the Ukraine deport rebels/ethnic Russians from eastern Ukraine as part of a solution to the conflict. If the Russians did that I imagine there would be a lot of accusations of ethnic cleansing, etc. Don't forget that Ukraine is fertile ground for Russian meddling because they are such a disfunctional, corrupt state themselves, one that is so disfunctional that It has a significant population of people who are willing to fight and die to break away from it.

Better to understand your enemy and his motivations then to simply dismiss them.

Having legitimate interests does not justify sending tanks. They do not have a say what sovereign states do as far as the joining NATO or not.
If Russia were not aggressive maybe there would be no need to for NATO, but as it is it is no surprise they all want to join.
Russia needs a serious punch in the face, and the sooner the better. It is unfortunate that the only person who seems to have any balls in the White House is named Michelle.
And lets no play into this "we were attacked and lost 20 Million" crap. Soviet Union is just as responsible for starting the war as Nazi Germany, and the only reason there were as many Soviet killed is because Stalin was anxious to capture as much of Europe as possible before Germany collapsed, thus chucking masses of troops with inadequate support at the Germans. It would have been better for everyone concerned if the Soviets stayed behind Urals. All those trucks sent to the Soviets would have been better serving on the Western Front, when there was a shortage, preventing the Allies to advance on whole front, due to lack of transport of supplies.

[endfire79]

Disagree.  They needed the soviets back then.  It was a deal with the devil and it sucked for eastern Europe but otherwise I think that war would have dragged on longer.

[endfire79]

As for now, putin is full of bs and riding on it.  He will hit a brick wall if he threatens nato treaty states.  If not, then not good for NATO s reputation. 

[bayonetbrant]

NATO reinforcements in Eatern Europe

http://news.yahoo.com/nato-units-set-baltics-poland-romania-bulgaria-121819032.html

NATO will deploy small units in six Eastern European nations to help coordinate a spearhead force set up in response to Russia's actions in Ukraine, the alliance's secretary-general said Friday.

Jens Stoltenberg said the units in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Bulgaria and Romania will be the first of their kind there.

Defense ministers from the 28-nation military alliance will discuss the full force, which can react quickly to any hotspots in Europe, when they meet on Feb. 5.

Stoltenberg said countries responsible for providing the several thousand troops to the force should be known next week.

The forward units will comprise a few dozen personnel only. They will plan and organize military exercises, and provide command and control for any reinforcements the force might require.

"They're going to plan, they're going to organize exercises, to provide ... some key command elements for reinforcements," Stoltenberg said.

France, meanwhile, is pledging tanks and armored vehicles to bolster NATO forces in Poland, where leaders are increasingly uneasy about Russia.

The French military equipment is expected to remain in Poland for two months.

As tensions increased in 2014, NATO forces conducted about 200 military exercises, and Stoltenberg vowed this would continue as the alliance adapts to the increased presence of Russian warplanes in European skies. NATO intercepted Russian aircraft more than 400 times last year.

Stoltenberg also warned that Russia has continued to build up its military, as European NATO allies cut budgets again last year.

"It is not possible to get more out of less indefinitely. That is the reason why we have to stop the cuts and gradually start to increase defense spending as our economies grow," he said.

"Despite the economic crisis, despite the financial problems they are facing, Russia now is still giving priority to defense spending."

[panzerde]

Maybe I can pick up a nice dacha on the Black Sea cheap after the Russians get done screwing themselves again.

[OJsDad]

"It is not possible to get more out of less indefinitely. That is the reason why we have to stop the cuts and gradually start to increase defense spending as our economies grow," he said.

Unfortunately, NATO economies are not growing either.

[panzerde]

There's a pretty significant difference between "not growing" and the emerging train wreck that Putin is creating.

[LongBlade]

There's a pretty significant difference between "not growing" and the emerging train wreck that Putin is creating.

Emerging? He's managed to devalue his currency to 1:1 for a Weimar Reichsmark.

[Staggerwing]

^Over 40% at last count.

Supposedly Russia has enough of a currency hoard to survive another two years or so before either the price of oil goes up sharply or sanctions are lifted and the Russian Gov't can borrow on the world market. Absent either (or both) of those occurring it will need to cut services by a lot. The Babushkas will know what comes next...

[panzerde]

Emerging? He's managed to devalue his currency to 1:1 for a Weimar Reichsmark.

Emerging only in the sense that I think he's still at the front end of how bad this is going to get for them. I think he, combined with falling oil prices, are going to trash the Russian economy a lot worse than it already is.


Damn shame the Germans don't have any spare Russian ex-pat revolutionaries laying around they can stick on a train headed east.

[Staggerwing]

Maybe those goatees are already in Moscow, checking their texts and biding their time.

[LongBlade]

Emerging? He's managed to devalue his currency to 1:1 for a Weimar Reichsmark.

Emerging only in the sense that I think he's still at the front end of how bad this is going to get for them. I think he, combined with falling oil prices, are going to trash the Russian economy a lot worse than it already is.

I was just kidding. Indeed it will get worse. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Damn shame the Germans don't have any spare Russian ex-pat revolutionaries laying around they can stick on a train headed east.

I'm with Stagger. There might be a few over there. Problem is our current fearless leader seems more afraid of domestic political cooperation than external threats.

[GDS_Starfury]

"It is not possible to get more out of less indefinitely. That is the reason why we have to stop the cuts and gradually start to increase defense spending as our economies grow," he said.

Unfortunately, NATO economies are not growing either.

shit... most NATO countries weren't even spending what they were obligated to by treaty before the financial crisis.

[Gusington]

So clearly NATO means well but without the money and hardware to back up their guarantees...how will this work?