News from Ukraine Conflict

JasonPratt · February 03, 2015, 01:34:04 PM

Quote from: LongBlade on February 03, 2015, 01:06:31 PM
Quote from: Gusington on February 03, 2015, 10:44:37 AM
I guess at the end of the day I am just not convinced that we have any business mucking around in what has been a Russian sphere for a long, long time.

With all due respect, that sounds like an echo of how the world viewed the Sudetenland.

Arguably the world was quite correct to view it that way, compared to going to war over it. Which doesn't absolve Hitler and his crew from abusing and exploiting the situation.

Gusington · February 03, 2015, 06:37:55 PM

Remember LB that the Sudeten crisis was in 1938, just as Nazi war crimes were getting started. IIRC that was also the same year that Hitler was Time's Man of the Year. If Hitler died that year he would probably be remembered like Bismarck...as a "great German" and not a monster.

That's where Putin is at right now in Russia...he's their great savior, consolidating the Russian population the world over. If you're Russian, living in Russia, with little to embrace as far as patriotism...I think it can be intoxicating.

What right did the UK or the US or France have in deciding the fate of Sudeten Germans? Or Austrians? Or Germans in the Saar basin? Or Germans anywhere? Would it not be the same as the UK or France intervening in the US Civil War? Unwelcome meddling?

The Russians do not belong in Ukraine. But NATO certainly does not belong there either. And I say that having Eastern European [and Ukrainian] ancestry and some sort of mental connection to the place.

I hope that I am not coming across as a Russophile or a Russian apologist because I am not either. I just believe that going to war over Ukraine (from the US perspective) would be a [potentially very costly] mistake.

BanzaiCat · February 03, 2015, 06:41:28 PM

Russia keeps pushing. Con posted a story in another thread about those asshats getting ready to demand a blunt-ton of money from Germany for WWII reparations.

Gusington · February 03, 2015, 06:43:11 PM

They don't belong in Ukraine. If they keep pushing they should get pushed back. By Ukraine and Germany.

BanzaiCat · February 03, 2015, 06:44:46 PM

We shall see. The audacity of the Russian Parliament...my God.

Gusington · February 03, 2015, 06:46:00 PM

They're thugs that are reaching for a re-imagined Soviet glory.

Mr. Bigglesworth · February 03, 2015, 07:18:07 PM

Quote from: Gusington on February 03, 2015, 06:37:55 PM
Remember LB that the Sudeten crisis was in 1938, just as Nazi war crimes were getting started. IIRC that was also the same year that Hitler was Time's Man of the Year. If Hitler died that year he would probably be remembered like Bismarck...as a "great German" and not a monster.

That's where Putin is at right now in Russia...he's their great savior, consolidating the Russian population the world over. If you're Russian, living in Russia, with little to embrace as far as patriotism...I think it can be intoxicating.

What right did the UK or the US or France have in deciding the fate of Sudeten Germans? Or Austrians? Or Germans in the Saar basin? Or Germans anywhere? Would it not be the same as the UK or France intervening in the US Civil War? Unwelcome meddling?

The Russians do not belong in Ukraine. But NATO certainly does not belong there either. And I say that having Eastern European [and Ukrainian] ancestry and some sort of mental connection to the place.

I hope that I am not coming across as a Russophile or a Russian apologist because I am not either. I just believe that going to war over Ukraine (from the US perspective) would be a [potentially very costly] mistake.

As always, your post is well considered.

We still have to try to understand what they want. iirc Hitler told his generals after meeting the allies something along the lines "they are spineless". He was more beligerent after getting what he said he wanted than before. What is the human factor with putin? It doesn't have to be rational.

Gusington · February 03, 2015, 07:44:00 PM

Good question. I don't know what he really wants. What it looks like is that he wants to reanimate the USSR.

Mr. Bigglesworth · February 03, 2015, 07:48:42 PM

So in game theory terms the decision point do not get involved in Ukraine does not have to result in do not get in a fight with Russia.

If the goal is restore the greatness of Rusia, it may in fact need a conflict. > fear of Russia = > greatness of russia(in their minds)

OJsDad · February 03, 2015, 09:08:03 PM

Quote from: Gusington on February 03, 2015, 06:37:55 PM
Remember LB that the Sudeten crisis was in 1938, just as Nazi war crimes were getting started. IIRC that was also the same year that Hitler was Time's Man of the Year. If Hitler died that year he would probably be remembered like Bismarck...as a "great German" and not a monster.

That's where Putin is at right now in Russia...he's their great savior, consolidating the Russian population the world over. If you're Russian, living in Russia, with little to embrace as far as patriotism...I think it can be intoxicating.

What right did the UK or the US or France have in deciding the fate of Sudeten Germans? Or Austrians? Or Germans in the Saar basin? Or Germans anywhere? Would it not be the same as the UK or France intervening in the US Civil War? Unwelcome meddling?

The Russians do not belong in Ukraine. But NATO certainly does not belong there either. And I say that having Eastern European [and Ukrainian] ancestry and some sort of mental connection to the place.

I hope that I am not coming across as a Russophile or a Russian apologist because I am not either. I just believe that going to war over Ukraine (from the US perspective) would be a [potentially very costly] mistake.

Italy invaded Ethiopia in '35. Perhaps if the British/French had stood up to Italy then, especially after they used chemical weapons, the Sudetenland would not have come to pass.

Gusington · February 03, 2015, 09:48:47 PM

^IMHO there was a racist mentality to foreign policy in that era that is an additional factor. Western leaders considered Ethiopia strictly of 2nd class importance [if that] when compared to the Sudetenland. I hesitate to drag racism and ethnicity into this, at it will only make things murkier and uglier, but there you have it.

Mr. Bigglesworth · February 03, 2015, 10:43:52 PM

Funny thing about history, you can often find a grudge created earlier. Didn't the Etheopians castrate some Italians prior? or was that somalis?

GDS_Starfury · February 03, 2015, 10:48:26 PM

Quote from: Gusington on February 03, 2015, 09:48:47 PM
^IMHO there was a racist mentality to foreign policy in that era that is an additional factor.

and that mentality is alive and well today. make no mistake about that.

Mr. Bigglesworth · February 03, 2015, 11:19:56 PM

On the other hand, many writers have pointed out how this battle was a humiliation for the Italian military. One student of Ethiopia, Donald N. Levine, points out that for the Italians Adwa "became a national trauma which demagogic leaders strove to avenge. It also played no little part in motivating Italy's revanchist adventure in 1935"

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adwa

MetalDog · February 03, 2015, 11:51:05 PM

Quote from: Gusington on February 03, 2015, 09:48:47 PM
^IMHO there was a racist mentality to foreign policy in that era that is an additional factor. Western leaders considered Ethiopia strictly of 2nd class importance [if that] when compared to the Sudetenland. I hesitate to drag racism and ethnicity into this, at it will only make things murkier and uglier, but there you have it.

To your point, and now I wished I had posted it, there was an article on Yahoo yesterday that said the Russian seperatists in Ukraine were calling the leaders of Ukraine, "dirty Jews." The unfortunate thing that history has taught us is that mankind will lose the thin sheen of 'civilization," at the drop of a hat to drive home the differences between us.