CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread

[Grim.Reaper]

Is the Russian Metis/Saxhorn-2 ATGM available in game?

Weapon systems included......

United States:

Vehicles:

LMTV
M1064A3
M1126 Stryker
M1127 Stryker
M1128 Stryker
M1129 Stryker
M1130 Stryker
M1131 Stryker
M1132 Stryker
M1134 Stryker
M1151A1 Humvee
M1151A1 Humvee (Recon)
M1152A1 Humvee
M1167 Humvee
M1200 Armored Knight
M1A2 SEPv2 Abrams (APS)
M1A2 SEPv2 Abrams (ERA)
M2A3 Bradley (APS)
M2A3 Bradley (ERA)
M3A3 Bradley (APS)
M3A3 Bradley (ERA)
M7A3 Bradley (APS)
M7A3 Bradley (ERA)

Small Arms:

M107A1
M110
M110 CSASS
M249 PIP
M25 CDTE
M4A1
M4A1 w/ ACOG
M4A1 w/ grenade launcher + ACOG
M4A1 w/ M320A1 grenade launcher
M4A1 w/ thermal sight
M9A1
Precision Sniper Rifle (.300)
Precision Sniper Rifle (.338)
Precision Sniper Rifle (7.62)

Heavy Weapons:

FGM-148 Javelin
FIM-92 Stinger
M120
M224A1
M252A1
M136 AT4 CS
M240L
M2A1 .50cal
Mk.19
TOW ITAS M41

Artillery Support:

M109A7 Paladin
M119A3
M777A2

Air Support:

AH-64D Apache Longbow
AH-64E Apache Guardian
F-15E Strike Eagle
F-16CJ Fighting Falcon

UAV Support:

MQ-1C Grey Eagle
RQ-11B Raven
RQ-7B Shadow

Russia:

Vehicles:

2K22M-Tunguska
2S24
9K35 Strela-10M3
9P149-Shturm-S
9P157-2-Khrizantema-S
BMP-2
BMP-2K
BMP-2M
BMP-3
BMP-3K
BMP-3M
BMP-3M (Arena)
BMP-3M (ERA)
BMP-3M (Shtora)
BRDM-2
BRDM-2 (AT-5B)
BRDM-2M
BRDM-2M (AT-5B)
BRM-1K
BRM-3K
BTR-80 (1V152)
BTR-80A
BTR-80AK
BTR-82
BTR-82A
MT-LBM
MT-LBM-6MA
MT-LBM-6MB
MT-LBu 1V14 "Mashina" KSAUO
PRP-4M
T-72B3
T-72B3 (APS)
T-90A
T-90AM
T-90AM (APS)
Tigr
UAZ 469
Ural 4320

Small Arms:

AK-74M
AK-74M w/ GP-30 grenade launcher
AKS-74U
Makarov PM
PKP
SVD

Heavy Weapons:

2B11 Sani
2B14 Podnos
AT-13
AT-14
AT-4C
AT-7
Igla SA-18
Igla-S SA-24
PKM
RPG-26
RPG-7V2
RPO-M Shmel

Artillery Support:

2A65 Msta-B
2S1 Gvozdika
2S19 Msta-S
2S19M1 Msta-S
2S19M2 Msta-S
2S34 Chosta
2S3M1 Akatsiya
2S3M2 Akatsiya
2S7M Mialka
MT-12 Rapira

Air Support:

Ka-52 Alligator
Mi-24PN Hind
Mi-28N Havoc
Su-24M2 Fencer-D
Su-25SM Frogfoot
Su-34 Fullback

UAV Support:

Orlan-10
Yakovlev Pchela-1T
ZALA 421-08

Ukraine:

Vehicles:

9K35 Strela-10M3
9P149-Shturm-S
BM Bulat
BM Oplot
BMP-2
BMP-2K
BRDM-2
BRDM-2 (AT-5B)
BRM-1K
BTR-4E
BTR-70
BTR-70K
MT-LBM
MT-LBu 1V14 "Mashina" KSAUO
PRP-4M
T-64BV
UAZ 469
Ural 4320

Small Arms:

AK-74
AK-74 w/ GP-30 grenade launcher
AKS-74
AKS-74U
Makarov PM
RPK-74
SVD

Heavy Weapons:

2B11 Sani
2B14 Podnos
AGS-17
AT-4C
AT-7
Corsar
Igla SA-18
MT-12 Rapira
MT-12K Rapira
PKM
RPG-22
RPG-26
RPG-7V1
RPO-A Shmel
Skif
SPG-9

Artillery Support:

2A65 Msta-B
2S1 Gvozdika
2S19 Msta-S
2S3M1 Akatsiya
2S7M Mialka
MT-12 Rapira

Air Support:

M-24P Hind
M-24PM Hind
Su-24M Fencer-D
Su-25 Frogfoot

[Staggerwing]

AT-13

Looks like it's there. While not quite as capable as the Javelin, the AT-13 should give the Russians similar top-down kill capability. The Ukes are stuck with the older AT-7. Something for the modders to fix, making use of captured equipment possible.

[jomni]

Is the Russian Metis/Saxhorn-2 ATGM available in game?

Russians have these ATGM's.  But these are dedicated ATGM teams.  The American Javelin can be found in the APC's.  So any squad can become a lethal tank killer by just picking this up.
As for the Russians, the APC's only carry disposable tubes of RPG26 and extra rockets for the reloadable RPG7.  None of them gets a guided missile for free.

[mikeck]

I think this is my favorite Combat Mission game to date. Just plays really well as it really seems to capture the pace and lethality of modern warfare. I've never used smoke so much in my life. Bradley's with the improved "top down attack" TOWs are deadly. Pop up, fire, pop smoke (they are radio guided) and reverse back down. I enjoy using the Bradley's and infantry with Javelins more than tanks which is a change from previous games. I used to be all about the armor

The Javelin is a cheat.  The Russians don't have an equivalent weapon.  >:(  Wonder if people complain about it in PBEM or are there "no Javelin" house rules.
If there aren't any restrictions, I will use Javelins all the time.  Haven't done PBEM yet.

Well it's an actual weapon system so it can't be a "cheat". In other words, it's not an exploitation of a game bug or a hypothetical weapon. If you want to play the Russians, better figure out how to deal with then like the real Russian army has to. It isn't easy...only way I have found is to watch where the missle comes from and start sending rounds there to supress further shots.

Tell you what though...give me a platoon with some javelins and 2 M3 Bradley's with ToW2b's and I can wreck crap against the AI. I'm sure I wouldnt find it so easy against a human.

Edit: also use a ton of smoke. Doesn't help once a javelin has locked you up but keeps it happening to begin with. Smoke, stay behind hills and use woods with infantry support

[Sir Slash]

STOP tempting me to buy this game dammit!!!

[Grim.Reaper]

Me and this game (and the other series) have a love/hate relationship, I really can appreciate what JH said earlier in this thread about not being patient and not doing the right things to be successful because it seems like work.  We are given a lot of options to plan our missions, but I mentally break down and fail to use all the resources (i.e. fire support, smoke, LOS, etc.) to my advantage.  And because of that, I end in defeat.  My mind just can not comprehend the correct tactics for some reason and/or I fail to be patient enough to execute them.

Using an example, I have been trying to play the tiny battle "August Morning"....I play as the blue force, which I only have something like five units to control which one would think is manageable.  The main mission is to recon a bunch of knocked out vehicle locations that were hit in a previous strike.  My units start concealed in the woods on top of a hill, overlooking a valley that leads up to the enemy positions.  In order to get at any of the enemy locations, I have to cross this wide open valley with my limited troops.  It seems no matter what I do, I can't get my soldiers safely across this valley without getting many casualties, which pretty much render my force useless to continue with the mission.  I have tried prep fire on some of the locations, which seem ineffective and then I run out of ammo for it.  I am guessing I need to make more use of smoke and other tactics to make it across, but that is when I end up losing my patience.

Just curious, anyone else play this battle with any success?

Even with my own personal frustrations, I think it has great potential once I figure out making things work for me.

[JudgeDredd]

The timer keeps ticking - that's part of the problem. The other part is sitting there doing sod all. It's counter intuitive to some (myself included) to sit there and do nothing for 4,5,6,8 minutes until the smoke lands. So you do get impatient and end up putting your troops in danger.

I'm having a blast at the moment moving through the second mission of the Dnieper crossing. Quarry is secured. Cattle Sheds secured. Beach A secured. All Phase Lines have been crossed. Just Beach B and the end target to go.

[Jarhead0331]

You know its a great game when a successful plan gives you a tremendous sense of accomplishment, while on the other hand, failure brings you a troubling sense of loss. 

[Con]

Me and this game (and the other series) have a love/hate relationship, I really can appreciate what JH said earlier in this thread about not being patient and not doing the right things to be successful because it seems like work.  We are given a lot of options to plan our missions, but I mentally break down and fail to use all the resources (i.e. fire support, smoke, LOS, etc.) to my advantage.  And because of that, I end in defeat.  My mind just can not comprehend the correct tactics for some reason and/or I fail to be patient enough to execute them.

Using an example, I have been trying to play the tiny battle "August Morning"....I play as the blue force, which I only have something like five units to control which one would think is manageable.  The main mission is to recon a bunch of knocked out vehicle locations that were hit in a previous strike.  My units start concealed in the woods on top of a hill, overlooking a valley that leads up to the enemy positions.  In order to get at any of the enemy locations, I have to cross this wide open valley with my limited troops.  It seems no matter what I do, I can't get my soldiers safely across this valley without getting many casualties, which pretty much render my force useless to continue with the mission.  I have tried prep fire on some of the locations, which seem ineffective and then I run out of ammo for it.  I am guessing I need to make more use of smoke and other tactics to make it across, but that is when I end up losing my patience.

Just curious, anyone else play this battle with any success?

Even with my own personal frustrations, I think it has great potential once I figure out making things work for me.

Real world tactics work best in this game. 

First assess the terrain.  Where would you put troops if you were the Russians.  Those buildings on the ridge look like they would have a good field of view.
2. Formulate your plan - In this case you need to recon those vehicles, your forces are 1 platoon of infantry a command unit and two MMG companies plus a FIST team.  Split the platoon into two squads to give increased flexability.  Put the automatic weapons where they will be able to fire into suspected enemy positions (if you cannot do it in setup area put them as close as possible and have them go SLOW to the spot). 
A good tip on determining line of site is to take a unit and issue a move command to where you think the enemy are located).  Then click on the white ball where the move command terminated and issue a combat target command.  Now where you move your cursor the game will draw LOS from the end of that move command at potential enemy positions.  I use this to try and scout out where are good potential LOS areas to move to.  Doing this you will notice that along the hedge below the second blue setup area there are some good spots where LOS is available from your side of the valley to those houses.
3. Move your split squads in overwatch positions.  Wait until the heavy weapons are setup and sighted.  Try and use as much cover as possible.  Along the hedgerow of the sunken road is a good start.  Dash (FAST) move between gaps in the hedges but dont worry about time its more impt to set up your squads in overwatch.  Use you HQ unit to help keep all of them in Command and Control.  If you are getting fired upon know that in this game Arty will be raining down on that position in 5-10 minutes so be ready to move dont get into a stand up fight with your squads.
4. Get into the valley and leap frog to the houses.  A good tip with houses is to move a squad at hunt to the outside of the building and issue a cover fire arc into the building.  Wait a turn or two and if there are any unfriendlies in there your guys will at least have some cover from the walls of the building etc.
5. Be patient and paranoid.  When you rush to something thinking its unguarded is where a good scenario designer always has an unpleasant surprise waiting for you.  Always think LOS and cover

Doing this I got my guys out with three wounded 1 dead and Total US victory

Con

[Grim.Reaper]

Thanks for the tips con, I will give them a try tonight...I always forget about splitting the squads:(

[Con]

Honestly the best teacher is playing PBEM games

Those are way more unpredictable and brutal in a fun way then playing the AI.  As Hans said "Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, that's something else."

Con

[jomni]

Honestly the best teacher is playing PBEM games

Those are way more unpredictable and brutal in a fun way then playing the AI.  As Hans said "Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, that's something else."

Con

Yeah. Both sides are impatient and prone to error.   O0 who ever wants a quick battle, just send me a PM.

[mikeck]

I cheat. I play and if something goes REALLY wrong (I lose 2 m1's from a 3 tank platoon), I reload the previous turn and try again. I do this for about 3 scenarios and then about 4-5 quick battles. Did it in previous CM games too. This way, I learn how to overcome various problems using the game system. I find I don't really learn by taking a drubbing and then playing again. I learn by trying move "a". If I lose my arse, I change something up and then try "b" and so on. Really gives me a chance to see what types of things work and what don't. Then I fire up the campaign and never reload

I just find that I learn much more about the way the game works this way instead of playing through the whole thing at once...there are so many things I do wrong that i can't remember when I try the scenario again.

Anyway, my two cents
(Even reloading 5-6 times a scenario after a big mistake, I still only manage tactical victories against veteran AI).

[Skoop]

That sounds like a pretty reasonable method of self tutorial.

[RyanE]

I think there was some skepticism about how popular a new modern title would be over on the BFC forums.  But I don't think I have seen that much activity and that much new blood brought into the forums since CMSF days.  I hope it was as commercially successful for BFC as it looks.   I also hope they can pace the CMBS modules to take advantage of it.