CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread

[mikeck]

Interesting -- although in this case, the javelin missile followed its usual top-armor-penetrating parabolic trajectory...to take out single grunt.  Seemed like a bug... or at least, an incredibly boneheaded tactical decision.

Anyway, good solution you propose.

Also, re: the TOW2, I was amazed the other day when one of my Bradleys took out a T-90 using this method... I thought he was toast...

I believe the direct attack flight path of a Javelin still causes it to elevate a little above the target.  Just not as high as in the top-attack mode.

Maybe, but not enough that it can't be put through the window of a building in Iraq or the mouth of the cave in Afghanistan

[mikeck]

No offense taken at all.  O0

But I can see where jomni comes from. Especially in the Quick Battle system. Ideally you want to play an opponent and have similar chances to win a battle.
Once people know that every APC has the 'cane of doom' equipped, it'll quickly make for unbalanced matches if they resort to Javelin spam.

I am not sure how widely available Javelins are in US platoons, but in CM:BS they aren't rare at all and so not really expensive to purchase. While this may be reality, I do agree with jomni that this can be a game killer between two human players.

CM players value realism. I do too, but I also value a fair fight in terms of it being a game and all. There is no skill needed for Javelin spam.

If players do not want javelin spam then they can set a house rule. But I would hate to see the cost of the javelin be increased in the game because players can't figure out how to defeat it.

[jomni]

I am also against increasing the price because javelin dominance is only applicable when the opponent adopts a vehicle-dependent strategy.

Well I can accept the presence of advanced US equipment and I will use them as well in my PBEM games.  O0
Another argument about cost and real life.  I'm pretty sure a Javelin is relatively expensive. http://www.bga-aeroweb.com/Defense/Javelin-Anti-Tank.html
It is there because the Department of Defence spent money (purchase points) on it.  So the player should by right spend "money" on it too if they want to perform a javelin spam.

BTW, Javelin has a weakness = minimum range.  So all in not lost.  The Russians just have to use a lot of infantry to counter the Javelin.

[mikeck]

A well placed sniper and observer with some artillery do wonders as well. Javelin crews have to move to get into position. When I see one fired (which inevitably kills me), I call in mortar/arty strike heavy with short duration. While suppressed I rush up. It's tough to time. not sure it would work against a human opponent as they would likely move after firing

[jomni]

A well placed sniper and observer with some artillery do wonders as well. Javelin crews have to move to get into position. When I see one fired (which inevitably kills me), I call in mortar/arty strike heavy with short duration. While suppressed I rush up. It's tough to time. not sure it would work against a human opponent as they would likely move after firing

Not just Javelin crews.  Every US solder can become a Javelin crew by picking one up from dead bodies or from their APC's.  A full US squad with a Javelin soldier is more deadly.

[Tinkershuffle]

You should try some of the mods already released - the background one that adds electricity pylons and a TV antenna are great - such a small change such a big difference.

What's the name of that mod? For some reason I can't find it in the repository..

[jomni]

How much will you pay BF for them to update the AI?

http://community.battlefront.com/forum/99-combat-mission-black-sea/

I say zero! Good AI should be given to us for free! It should be there in the first place. Lol. But hey, those hard core fans are willing to pay top dollar. BF is really in a good financial position with these guys around.

[JudgeDredd]

^ I agree...a competent AI should be in the game. Of course, competent could be measured differently depending on how good you are as a player.

Personally I'm reasonably happy with the AI and I wouldn't pay a single penny.

[MikeGER]

You should try some of the mods already released - the background one that adds electricity pylons and a TV antenna are great - such a small change such a big difference.

What's the name of that mod? For some reason I can't find it in the repository..

its called:
Kieme CMBS reworked horizons.rar  :)

and can be found with alot of other of Kiemes OUTSTANDING  O0 work at the upper half of "Kieme's modding corner " thread over in the Battlefront forum
http://community.battlefront.com/topic/117795-kiemes-modding-corner/?p=1577808

link to his file
https://app.box.com/s/qcxm6o3sx6wztbtreszl3cd0qamdkrm8

[Nefaro]

How much will you pay BF for them to update the AI?

http://community.battlefront.com/forum/99-combat-mission-black-sea/

I say zero! Good AI should be given to us for free! It should be there in the first place. Lol. But hey, those hard core fans are willing to pay top dollar. BF is really in a good financial position with these guys around.

BFC is convinced that nobody would pay an economically sustainable price to make spending a lot of development time on AI improvement to the detriment of new features. I'm thinking that if the game is largely feature-complete (what's missing? Flares and proper nighttime illumination sources; environmental fire; mast-mounted vision equipment... can't think of anything else immediately) and they're working on a UI improvement already, perhaps an AI upgrade might be next if there's enough support for it. Whadday'all think?



Edit: by "Nobody" I mean "insufficient people".

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/118805-how-much-would-you-pay-for-an-improved-ai-upgrade/

Man.. I just don't know what to say.  Would this mean that they want extra money and the AI work would cost dev time on new features? 

The randomized skirmish maps in CMx2 definitely need improved AI.  Whether that should be some costly DLC is a pandora's box, especially with BF.  That's the real question in the poll.  Will you CM die-hards be forced to pay for extra AI DLC (or the like) from now on, if this becomes a thing?

Sounds like they don't want to do it, despite all the requests, unless they get paid extra.  Am I misunderstanding that BF post in this sense?  Offering it is nice.. but asking for extra money to change their priorities?  *shrug*

Would I be willing to pay an "economically sustainable price" to improve the CMx2 AI?  I'll answer that with a statement:  I'd be more inclined to actually purchase new versions if the AI was improved, especially for skirmishes. 

[Pete Dero]

[

Sounds like they don't want to do it, despite all the requests, unless they get paid extra.  Am I misunderstanding that BF post in this sense?  Offering it is nice.. but asking for extra money to change their priorities?  *shrug*

As I read it "BFC is convinced that nobody would pay" is the opinion of the forum member who started the poll.   Maybe somebody can confirm if this is also BFC's opinion.

Paying extra for a working AI, wait until Creative Assembly hears about this.

[RyanE]

Isn't the poll by a customer?  I didn't think it was BFC who did it.  I its a customer trying to convince BFC to add features to the upgrade.

One huge feature not in the game is any real engineering capability.  They actually have engineering vehicles, but there are just window dressing.  No fast scrapes for tanks.  No quick foxholes.  No real breaching of obstacles.  Adding mineclearing vehicles is step in that direction, but not very far.

LOS is still wonky through vehicles. No friendly fire or fire lanes.  Night illumination capability is still not very capable and its a hugely important part of even modern combat.  Tank gun depression and elevation is still a little laughable, considering the agonizing detail in other parts of the game.

I know there are reasons for all of these and those reasons are more than acceptable to me.  So there is plenty of stuff to work on and I am sure my list is only a small part of the list BFC has for themselves.

[jomni]

It's a customer poll.  They are more than willing to throw money at BFC for development of the AI.

[jomni]

Isn't the poll by a customer?  I didn't think it was BFC who did it.  I its a customer trying to convince BFC to add features to the upgrade.

One huge feature not in the game is any real engineering capability.  They actually have engineering vehicles, but there are just window dressing.  No fast scrapes for tanks.  No quick foxholes.  No real breaching of obstacles.  Adding mineclearing vehicles is step in that direction, but not very far.

LOS is still wonky through vehicles. No friendly fire or fire lanes.  Night illumination capability is still not very capable and its a hugely important part of even modern combat.  Tank gun depression and elevation is still a little laughable, considering the agonizing detail in other parts of the game.

I know there are reasons for all of these and those reasons are more than acceptable to me.  So there is plenty of stuff to work on and I am sure my list is only a small part of the list BFC has for themselves.

A lot of these are old engine issues as a result of the design.  They are just busy adding new toys and theatres.

[Yskonyn]

The poll is not as outrageous as you might think, considering BFC only have 2 or so programmers.
AI is a very hard thing to code well and the simple fact is that a Tiny studio just doesn't have the manpower to spare to dedicate to special missions like this.

The guy who created the poll is not a BFC employee. He is just gauging wether the argument he mentions stands up to the community and if not, the community could show willingness to pay extra for extra advanced AI. Maybe BFC can expand if it turns out the community would pay up for such things. Its all speculative and 'feelie-touchy'. :D