Knights Templar vs ISIS

[Con]

I thought this article was interesting and worth a discussion here.

Its a bit simplistic and generalizes much too much but the basic presmis I think is accurate in order to push back ISIS there has to be a non state/government solution something that is quasi military/religious and autonomous but broadly aligned and supported by a nation state (or states) with training, equipment, funding and recruits.  Part of the difficulty will be how to control this after ISIS is defeated.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/knights-templar-maps-plan-fight-130000317.html

Con

[LongBlade]

Well, he's clearly suggesting that this will become a war of religion. I'm not sure it will become that or needs to become that but it is interesting as a thesis.

[MetalDog]

Beat me to it.  And used the same thread title I thought of, too ;)

So, if it's non-states fighting this, what's the outcome?

[LongBlade]

I'm not convinced the role of the state is over. Daish currently resides in Failed State Central. None states are succeeding because the states there were never really states - everyone agrees that the lines on the map don't correspond to natural, ethnic boundaries but arbitrary lines created a century ago by people half a world away. It's hardly a surprise that those lines are being erased...the surprise to me is that it took this long to happen.

[MetalDog]

So, does it settle around religious or secular /ethnic lines?

[GDS_Starfury]

Well, he's clearly suggesting that this will become a war of religion. I'm not sure it will become that or needs to become that but it is interesting as a thesis.

the problem here is that it already is a war of religion for the other side.

[Con]

I think that the ethnic lines will delineate the boundaries of the areas of control and provide a common unifying area to allow everyday life to continue (farming, buying bread, some industry, and some social services like police/courts etc).  The religious aspect will be used from outside groups to try and destroy these enclaves by a larger previously established system like a government/religious movement that wishes to maintain and or grow its power and sphere of influence.

[Steelgrave]

Well, he's clearly suggesting that this will become a war of religion. I'm not sure it will become that or needs to become that but it is interesting as a thesis.

the problem here is that it already is a war of religion for the other side.

Exactly. Obama and the French government can deny the role of Islam all they want, but when the terrorists are screaming "allahu akbar" before blowing up a bus full of schoolchildren or attacking a Jewish deli, it's obvious to anyone with eyes to see that this IS a religious war from their perspective. Not to mention the fact that THEY say it's a religious war....politicians simply choose to ignore that inconvenient fact.

[undercovergeek]

Why is it a bad thing for the west to acknowledge its a religious war

[GDS_Starfury]

the pc police would think that its racist.   ::)

[Steelgrave]

Why is it a bad thing for the west to acknowledge its a religious war

No one in politics wants to offend their own Muslim population by linking the two.

[Staggerwing]

Because declaring the conflict a religious war would reinforce what IS-Hole is saying to the the world's Muslim population and set the implication that both sides will now be killing folks just because what belief system they identify with. That is essentially what a religious war is- exterminate the Heretics and Unbelievers. We don't kill the IS-Holes because they are Muslim, we kill them because they are murderers and serial rapists.

And that is a different kind of war entirely.

[undercovergeek]

so if it isn't a war against Islam it's a war against naughty Muslims?

I had the misfortune to be sent a piece by someone who advocated a like for like policy - specifically it was linking the fact that we know where jehadi johns family live and probably now pay for his families protection whilst he beheads westerners - the point raised was that Isis wouldn't hesitate to kill as many family  members as they could - it's not something I'm sure I advocate but it made me think

A long time ago there was a newspaper article suggesting that the IRA were only brought to the negotiating table when the UDF and others started killing a catholic for every Protestant that was killed

[GDS_Starfury]

thats what the Linebacker raids did to the North Vietnamese.
the problem isnt so much the lable, its the spine to get really fucking dirty for a few weeks knowing that youll have decades of peace afterwards.

[undercovergeek]

thats what the Linebacker raids did to the North Vietnamese.
the problem isnt so much the lable, its the spine to get really fucking dirty for a few weeks knowing that youll have decades of peace afterwards.

one could do that without going too public surely?