Scourge of War

Toonces · April 14, 2015, 03:02:33 AM

I just got done another battle in Scourge of War: Gettysburg. I took a ton of screenshots, but I'm too exhausted to post the AAR at this moment. It will have to wait until tomorrow.

I fought a Corps vs. Corps defend fight using the entire Gettysburg map. I fought as the Union First Division as Wadsworth under Doubleday, with the Iron Brigade and Second Brigade as my subordinate units. My task started as defending a victory point north of Gettysburg, but it eventually disintigrated into a melee in the actual town, followed by a desperate retreat to our VP rally point, and then finally being cleared off by Sesech artillery. The battle was still going on when I ended it, but we had generally bled both sides dry and I will concede that the AI Confederates probably won the VP area in the end.

The game time was about 4.5 hours and in real time was about 3 hours.

This game continues to amaze me with the absolute constant level of intensity it induces. I am mentally drained! If you can imagine a 3 hour long battle in Total War, that's kind of what it is like.

I've gone through the tutorials, and read the manual, but I still can't get some parts of the game to work like I want. Specifically, I can't seem to figure out the courier system, or else I am just doing it wrong. For example, in my game I was playing sandbox as a Division Commander, on normal difficulty without courier requirement (custom difficulty). When I gave orders to my Brigades using click commands I send out couriers, which was nice. However, when I composed courier messages to request support to adjacent Divisions or to Doubleday, I'm not sure they were complied with. Also, while I intercepted a few enemy courier messages, beyond my initial message I didn't receive any additional messages from Doubleday. i would have liked some guidance once battle was joined. Requests for information were ignored.

In singleplayer, will the AI commanders respond to courier requests?

More to follow...

Iron Brigade rushing to support Union infantry in Gettysburg town:

Toonces · April 14, 2015, 03:22:50 AM

My goal, something I have always wanted to master with this game, is to be able to play using HITS (Headquarters in the Saddle) using only couriers to command. I'm not there yet, but ultimately I'd like to be able to master a Corps command in this manner. I'm trying to wrap my head around how to do this...it's quite a learning curve.

Anguille · April 14, 2015, 03:24:54 AM

It's a great game indeed that require a lot of investment. Thanks for sharing your impressions. O0

jomni · April 14, 2015, 03:53:43 AM

Quote from: Toonces on April 14, 2015, 03:22:50 AM
My goal, something I have always wanted to master with this game, is to be able to play using HITS (Headquarters in the Saddle) using only couriers to command. I'm not there yet, but ultimately I'd like to be able to master a Corps command in this manner. I'm trying to wrap my head around how to do this...it's quite a learning curve.

The biggest problem is resisting the urge to watch the action.

Nefaro · April 14, 2015, 04:40:07 AM

Quote from: Toonces on April 14, 2015, 03:02:33 AM

In singleplayer, will the AI commanders respond to courier requests?

They will respond to requests for reinforcements, but they often refuse. After battle is joined, your couriers often get intercepted by the enemy if they have a long distance to travel. Which is often the case when it comes to your superior since they are so far away and the courier pathfinding can often be suicidal at longer distances. So they may not even arrive after being captured, or the same for any response coming back.

The courier commands to your own subordinate units can be fun but you have to learn what each does and the ideal order in which to list them on each command. It can also be frustrating, when your subordinate actually follows your order, to still fail in doing exactly what you wanted (leaving too large a gap in your line or not holding part of his brigade/division in reserve, for example). The direct orders system can be difficult enough to control and there is a notable loss of precision when you switch to courier message only, so I don't recommend it for the micro-managers and OCD people.

Rayfer · April 14, 2015, 07:29:02 AM

I share your feeling toonces...this remains one of my all time favorite games that I go back to time and time again. I've never come close to mastering the command aspects to a point where things go reasonable close to how I wanted them to go. Subordinate commanders will inexplicably go on the offensive at the most inopportune time or do other such things I never wanted them to do. Perhaps that's the way it was back then and this is realistic. Regardless, it is a remarkable game.

Slick Wilhelm · April 14, 2015, 08:36:11 AM

Quote from: Toonces on April 14, 2015, 03:02:33 AM
When I gave orders to my Brigades using click commands I send out couriers, which was nice. However, when I composed courier messages to request support to adjacent Divisions or to Doubleday, I'm not sure they were complied with. Also, while I intercepted a few enemy courier messages, beyond my initial message I didn't receive any additional messages from Doubleday. i would have liked some guidance once battle was joined. Requests for information were ignored.

It could be argued that this is a brilliant recreation of the same frustration real commanders had during the war. It seems that every battlefield commander of the real war would agree that they didn't get enough information from their subordinates, and HQ. Likewise, many commanders' plans failed to due to local commanders not obeying orders, or not receiving orders, etc.

It would be nice if there were two options regarding AI: Historical, where not all orders are carried out as ordered; Fantasy, where all orders are executed precisely as written.

It is a brilliant game series. I'm kind of sad they went the Waterloo route instead of continuing on to do other battles like Shiloh, Chickamauga, et al.

Skoop · April 14, 2015, 10:52:12 AM

I'm sure they will go back to the civil war at some point, this is a new engine they are doing after all. I'm happy to see them go napoleonic for a change of pace.

Father Ted · April 14, 2015, 01:21:59 PM

Just bought this, but I'm being old-fashioned about it and reading through the manual before trying to play. It was the idea of the HITS system that drew me as (being from across the pond) the ACW in itself doesn't hold a lot of interest per se.

mikeck · April 14, 2015, 03:53:12 PM

Just remember that sometimes commanders do not respond to your orders by design. They have certain levels of initiative and competency and sometimes they simply don't follow what you say or they don't do it properly. I know this is frustrating because when it happens to me I'm yelling at the screen wondering whether he's just not listening to me or whether I'm doing something wrong

jomni · April 14, 2015, 05:05:49 PM

Quote from: Father Ted on April 14, 2015, 01:21:59 PM
the ACW in itself doesn't hold a lot of interest per se.

This is what's stopping me from playing much of this game.

Nefaro · April 14, 2015, 05:47:10 PM

Quote from: Father Ted on April 14, 2015, 01:21:59 PM
Just bought this, but I'm being old-fashioned about it and reading through the manual before trying to play. It was the idea of the HITS system that drew me as (being from across the pond) the ACW in itself doesn't hold a lot of interest per se.

I highly suggest playing through the Tutorials in order, whether a beginner reads the manual or not. There is a lot to learn from them, and they are actually quite fun too.

Quote from: mikeck on April 14, 2015, 03:53:12 PM
Just remember that sometimes commanders do not respond to your orders by design. They have certain levels of initiative and competency and sometimes they simply don't follow what you say or they don't do it properly. I know this is frustrating because when it happens to me I'm yelling at the screen wondering whether he's just not listening to me or whether I'm doing something wrong

It can be frustrating, but at the same time it is a nice feature. Your (in?)subordinate generals each have their own style, so giving your headstrong all-in attacker a regular Hold Position order isn't enough to keep him from eventually pushing forward (or just ignoring it if the enemy is near) so you may need to issue a Hold At All Cost to get your point across and make him listen, for example. On the other hand, the slow & methodical type may never leave his position, even when a good opportunity to rout his immediate opponents with a charge is as obvious as daylight.

So sometimes you'll have to gauge their mindset and re-issue a stronger order if they're being too hesitant or too aggressive. Gauging such things is just one part of SOW that makes it such a great wargame. There were many cases of ACW generals doing their own thing, despite orders to the contrary, in the battles so it certainly deserves a place in such a sim.

mikeck · April 14, 2015, 07:48:07 PM

Agree 100%. But I'm still yelling. I'm sure McClellan felt the same way about Burnside at Antietam. Told him 3 times to launch his assault...nothing. Finally he did and it was a massacre because Lee could reinforce my that time

So it's frustrating but exceptionally realistic

Toonces · April 15, 2015, 01:43:58 AM

I posted the AAR in the AAR forum here: http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=13318.0

I spent a lot of time trying to make it easy to keep oriented but let me know if you have any questions. The fight was pretty confusing and reconstructing it was a bit tough...so if I get a 1st mixed up with a 2nd from time to time, just flow with it.

Toonces · April 16, 2015, 12:51:07 AM

Oh man, what a can of worms I opened tonight. So I browsed on over to the Norbsoft site and took a peek at the mods available. Then I downloaded some. Then I installed and enabled some. It's like Skyrim all over!

Some of the ones I was checking out tonight:

Flags and Bugles: adds a bunch of new flags for both sides, lots of state and regimental flags now. Also overhauls the UI and adds a bunch of different orders toolbars. I'm still wrapping my head around them.

Realistic smoke: Creates a ton more smoke on the battlefield. I'm not sure how I feel about this one because it is really a lot of smoke. I might pull this one; I need to experiment with it some more.

Courier mod that supposedly increases the courier flexibility, but I still haven't quite figured couriers out. I'm still doing it wrong. I need to read some more threads on this.

Some of the mods I'm really stoked on are: Pea Ridge which adds a new map and several new battles. I just goofed off a bit with this and it's pretty amazing.

Red River Campaign: Again, just took a look at this. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with this campaign at all so the battles are a mystery to me. Gives you some new maps and has a bunch of scenarios. The first 4 are as Army command, and I am totally not skilled enough to command an army, especially if I can't get couriers to work properly, so I need to wait on this one a bit. The maps and OOB are available for sandbox skirmishes, though!

Three Days of Gettysburg. Basically it links a bunch of battles where your casualties and positions carry over from one battle to the next, so you can fight the whole three days of the battle. I haven't even opened this one yet.

Bloodbath IV: Changes the blood graphics to look a bit more realistic.

Random Wilderness maps: Random maps for skirmishes; haven't opened this one yet.

I think that's it. Gosh, with all of the stuff available for sale and for mods, I really have got my hands full! And with the sandbox, this game essentially has infinite replayability. I can't even imagine how much fun this must be with teams in MP, with an Army commander, subordinates, couriers, and HITS...it's probably a simply sublime gaming experience.