Scourge of War

[Toonces]

^ Clicking on some of the links in your sig I hope I don't come across as condescending in any way.  You are clearly a more informed gamer than me.  I just hope you can see the brilliance of this game system.  If you zoom out the command level, you can really stop and enjoy the scenery much more than in many games of this type.

[berto]

I tend to like grand tactical and especially operational games -- stop and go, not so fast paced -- more so than low-level tactical. 

I think SoW's a brilliant game, just not quite to my taste, or playing style.

I'd like it much more if the jump map interface were better, so I could play the game more JTS ACW style.  Although I understand that would subtract from the game's "realism".

I've spent a considerable amount of time trying to like this game.  I haven't totally given up on it.  But in the end, it really doesn't suit me.  It's just a subjective feel thing.  What else can I say?  <shrug>

[Nefaro]

SOW is only frenetic for me when I'm running a Corps, or using extra micro-management with a Division. 

I've had many experiences just moving the camera about, watching the lines shooting at each other for long periods, after getting my orders issued.  Waiting for an opening.

[GJK]

I think that me and berto may be similar gamers.  Taking it in and stepping back and absorbing the entire experience is one of the big reasons why I prefer boardgames over computer games.  That said, this game totally frustrated me the first few times that I tried it (I remember a similar feeling with Combat Mission when it first came out).  I remember just selecting units and moving them in to the fight because there were just sitting there and then after a few moments I'd see regiment after regiment running for the hills.  I shelved the game for years (starting with TC2M) but I picked it up again, concentrated on its mechanics and am now completely enamored with it.  Yes, the key is to let your subordinates do their job.  You set the general area for defense or attack for the parent unit and then the subordinates will position within that area.  You can fine tune and micro-manage as much or as little as you need to achieve the objective.  One thing that you do have to watch is the breaking point of your regiments.  If they start to get close, pull them back and move in a fresh replacement.

[Father Ted]

I have to admit that I only got this because I wanted to understand the system before the Waterloo version came out (and in the cheeky hope that I might thus get a discount on same), but I'm enjoying it for what it is.  Having said that...

I of course initially chose the Grognard difficulty level, partly because I read/post here ;), but mainly because at that level you get the intriguing Headquarters in the Saddle (HITS)command system.  Through the manual and first tutorial I got a fair idea of what to do in terms of movement (though there are some non-intuitive aspects), but as soon as combat arrived I got absolutely smashed.  I then played a brigade-level scenario and fared even worse.  Now I'm no Napoleon, but I just could not see how my four regiments were supposed to prevail against a superior number which never seemed to waver, however much shot I poured into their line...So I took me to the SoW forums (not very lively btw) and found someone else with the same issue.  He had worked out that the difficulty settings not only restrict your views and map info as they get harder, but also progressively buff the AI opponents...I was somewhat relieved to read this, and also to find that there are custom difficulty settings, so you can have HITS without having to fight a bunch of T1000s.

So yes, maybe I should have RTFM more closely, but also this thing does have learning curve that sometimes resembles a brick wall.

[Nefaro]

Don't hamper yourself with HITS and high difficulty level right out of the gate.  Save yourself a lot of trouble.

Actually, I don't recommend using any of that until you're very good at using the normal RTS style command system.  Even then, using only couriers can be problematic & the mechanics rather picky.

[panzerde]

Yep. When you start to get bored doing it the "regular" way, give HITS a try. It's cool, but trying to grapple with HITS on top of trying to learn to command formations with leaders that won't always do what you've ordered them to do is probably a recipe for major frustration!

[JasonPratt]

All hail and thanks to Toonces!

Fortunately, I'm not worried about the gfx -- I've never played any of the games other than TC1 (through some tutorials which I thoroughly enjoyed but got distracted by other things and never came back to), and I was thinking about firing that up again for 1st Man.

Fortunately, I also already own TC2, from many years ago... if I can find it... (pondering)... so if I can get that installed, I'll be good to go with the megamod.

I'm thinking of running a Confederate AAR campaign starting as a brigade (?) commander, or regimental -- can't recall how far down the chain of command the game goes -- at 1st Manassas, possibly while learning how to spell that name in a way the forum engine recognizes  :P , and then working my way forward with occasional promotions through the war. I'm certainly willing to play the major SoW battles (which I now own) instead of TC2, but obviously TC2 mods in some battles that aren't available yet for SoW. (Shiloh for example, which I live only about an hour and a half from. My brother and his wife lived only about 30 minutes from Pea Ridge for a few years, too, so Dad and I got to visit with Bro out there one day.)

[JasonPratt]

Ha! Found the box after about 15 minutes digging around; STILL SHRINKWRAPPED! Published at the time by Paradox. Bet they regret letting this one go. (Well there were sad legal issues involved, maybe they didn't have a choice...)

[JasonPratt]

So, last night installed TC2 plus the megamod found by Toonces, all of which work perfectly fine on my Win 8.1 system by the way.

Played the first (brigade) tutorial to reacquaint myself with the system, or rather I played it up to the point where I'm supposed to join the main division and hold the left wing, which I'm saving for tonight/later. This first tutorial mission was all I ever ended up playing on my other two or three times messing with TC1 (simply because I get too distracted with other shiny things), and if I can trust my memory it's set on the same portion of the map, down the same roads and nearby props, as the TC1 brigade tutorial. But I think I ran into enemy brigades at places differently than in the TC1 tutorial -- at least I recall fighting in a peach orchard off to the left of the road in TC1, but didn't do so here. Yet I do recall the TC1 tutorial enemy being the same mix of mostly Tennessee regiments! 

Anyway. I had enough sense not to try to slug out the fight against the first brigade with its four regiments (against my two, but I think they were half strength so we had about parity of troops), but promptly looked around for better terrain and marched my regs over to a wheat field behind a fence. Unfortunately, I didn't have enough sense to double-time it for the short jog there, and the AI did have enough sense to double-time it, so they caught me just before I could reach the fence (much less cross it)! Fortunately I was able to nurse my regiments over the fence anyway, though under fire, before all the other reb regiments could arrive and line up. After that my main problem was that one of my regiments didn't quite want to get up close enough to the fence for it to count as a terrain defense bonus. Still, we drove off the rebs, without taking many losses (under the circumstances), and I rested the troops in the field while waiting for the courier to arrive with new orders -- somewhat perversely curious to see how well the computer could 'drive' him over the fence to us! (Answer, not well, and he zigzagged across the grass about 50 yards in front of us looking for a way in,  I guess, but he did get there eventually. ;) )

[JasonPratt]

After that I gathered the regiments on the road, which was very clumsy, partly due to me still needing reacquaintance with the system, and partly because (as I often experimentally verified later going up the road) the computer tends to run rear regiments up to the arrow of the lead regiment, not to their own plotted arrows, and then turn them around to march BACK to where they were supposed to go in the first place.  ??? I don't recall this being a problem in TC1 at all, and now I'm curious whether this was a problem endemic to TC2 or whether the megamod pack caused it somehow.

At any rate, I eventually realized that if I plotted an assault column advance (where everyone arrives in column next to one another) but told everyone to keep to the road, this bug would be avoided, and if I wanted them to stop on the road sooner than that (rather than get off the road to stop) I could just order a brigade halt.

Around this time I realized the tree transparency distance was really too large (at the default 200 yards... not sure if that's diameter or radius), which was reducing my immersion factor quite a bit, but there's no way to fix this from within a mission once it starts. But I'll dial that back later for other missions.

Around 9:45 am (I played in 1:1 time so far by the way), I brought my troops up to meet and attach two depleted regiments waiting for me on the way to the division; and then just as I was plotting the next marching waypoint, here comes another mostly Tennessean brigade  out of the woods far ahead. (Ultimately with five or six regiments to my four.) I promptly ordered my brigade to run for a large wooded area to our right, so we could set up to receive an attack in good terrain (and also a little higher than approaches to us, which would give us another advantage); but the rebs chose to take up a blocking position on the road. So we stared at one another for a few minutes while I rested my troops a bit and watched to see if they had any other thoughts.

Seeing that the rebels looked content to simply block us from reaching the main division fight, I ordered my brigade to column up for a march back into the woods, hoping/betting that when we lost sight of each other they wouldn't try to come in after us. At this point I could have simply marched around them, but I had orders to disperse any rebs trying to control the road (in-story this was due to it being our main supply route, though in-game I'm doubtful that's a real effect), so I took my strongest single regiment, and parked them at some distance down the treeline to keep watch on them, while I marched the other three regs over to where we could exit the woods behind a small rise in the land (out of sight) and then approach their battle line at a 90 degree beam behind the cover of a smaller copse of woods.

Having set in position for this, and being glad that they hadn't reoriented to face my one 'showing' regiment, I rested my troops as long as I dared, and then quick-column marched them through the copse to take up line positions just inside the trees, able to 'T' the rebel line!

That didn't last long naturally, but I had achieved both surprise and a total dominance of relative advantages: they had to pull their one wooded regiment out (from trees across the road) to reorient to face us, and were downhill in open land near the road at close range. Naturally I put my colonel in the middle of the regiments for the best morale boost and kept them close together for a line boost, although due to the shape of the copse I had some trouble maneuvering my lines so as not to be in the way of fellow regiments (while still being under cover).

Once things got going, I ordered (not with 'orders' unfortunately; not sure that's even possible at regiment level) my strongest regiment to double-time column march out of their own trees to take up a quick line position on the left flank of the enemy line (their right flank I mean). By the time they trotted into position, one of the rebel regiments had started routing THROUGH OUR BATTLE LINE! (I thought they were advancing for a charge, and maybe that was the original desperate intention.) So I probably didn't even need to re-cap the T there, but I'm sure it helped make the fight shorter. The closest enemy regiment to the top of the new T, felt like they had no option but to turn their backs on my main line to fight; and that ended poorly for them eventually. ;) Meanwhile on my right, my smallest regiment found themselves with no one in range anymore, so I risked marching them out of cover to flank the enemy on that side, too. Which worked well enough; soon after the remaining three enemy regiments ran for home, along with their commander, though one of the regiments chose to stop running past my left side and just surrender outright.  :o

I'm still completely unsure of what I'm supposed to do with surrendered troops (if anything) in this game, so I called everyone together (reattaching my strongest regiment) to rest up in assault column for a few minutes and then resumed our march having met the goals for this part of the mission plan.

And that's where I'm at when I saved for the night, having arrived (just about, still taking position) in sight of the Union division, and having gotten orders to move up to support their left. :)

[Asid]

Great read JasonPratt

Thanks for posting

[Toonces]

I had a lot of trouble getting regiments/brigades to follow my orders in TC2.  I'd give them orders to march somewhere and they'd self-motivate to change direction, stop, march somewhere else, etc.  I am pretty sure there is some user-error going on; I might need to RTFM. 

It is one reason that I really prefer the courier system in SoW.  If you get it to work properly you don't have to worry about all the clicky stuff.  You can actually use words to tell your men where you want them to go, and how you want them to behave when they get there.

[JasonPratt]

Thanks, Asid. Once I start doing something like a campaign, I'll post a proper AAR with screenies in the AAR section. :)

[JasonPratt]

Toonces, I'll be curious to see how much of a problem that is, then. The only real problem I've had so far has been a pretty obvious bug (not a design flaw per se), and some fiddlyness in being able to properly get close to a fence. I don't recall the tutorial mission from TC1 being any worse.

But then I'm nowhere NEAR ready to try to do division, corps, or army work. Very likely by the time I 'level up' in the war to those points, I'll be playing SoW missions anyway.