New Wargame from Matrix

[GJK]

Peter started working on this in '07 or '08 as computer ASL for himself.  I have the early builds of it from then and he had scans of ASL counters in there and the turn structure was ASL and he had a good many details from the ASL rulebook (but not all of them...what other game could include all of them??).  He had a really good start for making the vaulted "computer ASL".

At some point recently, this little homemade project drew the interests of the folks at Matrix.  Not sure who approached whom (Peter talked about it quite a bit on their forums as linked to above). 

Of course now if it goes from a homemade project to something commercial, you have licensing issues if you make it "ASL" (Hasbro).  So now the ASL counters are replaced by what you see in the screenshots.  Missing is any reference to ASL, including the stats on the counters and the charts and tables used to resolve combat.  You'll see the results of the combat but not how those results were obtained.  However, the sequence of play still follows ASL.  It looks like a duck.  It walks like a duck.  It's just hiding the duck's shit to fool you in to thinking that it isn't a duck.  I'm not convinced that Hasbro won't see it as a duck once people start saying "computer ASL!".

This is very moddable.  It's a single graphic file that has all the units and terrain pieces.  I've modded it by using VASL counters and yes, it looks very much like the duck. 

Game play is a bit quirky.  Ok, it's really quirky right now but manageable (talking about the UI).  The game does play like ASL but it's missing quite a bit out of the ASL rulebook.  It's missing some key concepts that even the Starter Kit rulebook has but is it a good substitute for ASL?  I'll let you all decide but give me the boardgame any day.  It's not bad though if you want to play a 'pickup' game that is close to ASL. 

[dinsdale]

I'm not convinced that Hasbro won't see it as a duck once people start saying "computer ASL!".

From what I understand, this doesn't matter. ASL trademarks and assets are protected, but the rules themselves are not. Provided he's not cut/pasting the ASL rulebook, or any of the source material he should be fine.

[RyanE]

Keep in mind that it doesn't matter if he's right or wrong.  Hasbro has a lot of lawyers I bet.  They could crush him on look and feel only.

[GJK]

I'm not convinced that Hasbro won't see it as a duck once people start saying "computer ASL!".

From what I understand, this doesn't matter. ASL trademarks and assets are protected, but the rules themselves are not. Provided he's not cut/pasting the ASL rulebook, or any of the source material he should be fine.

My understanding (from MMP) is that Multiman Publishing has exclusive licensing rights for ASL material, including the rulebook, modules, scenarios, etc. for the tabletop components and Hasbro maintains ALL the rights for any electronic/digital stuff from the old Avalon Hill catalog. 

Now that said, did Critical Hit obtain any type permission to make ASL "clone" maps/counters/scenario/modules?  I don't know.  Conversely, did Rodney Kinney and the VASL/VASSAL team get any kind of permissions to distribute electronic formats of ASL (sans rules)?  That too I don't know (other than the disclaimer on the VASSAL website).  I do know that Peter has stated that he doesn't want to risk any litigation from rights owners were he to show dice rolls and combat results where it would be simple enough to figure out that he's using the IFT from ASL for the combat resolution.  Is that alone enough?  Dunno.

[RyanE]

VASL, in its early years, had some brushes with right holders. 

And I think Hasbro holds the rights to computer-based ASL.  Not sure what the definition is though.

[dinsdale]

ASL rules are not patented, there is no protection for turn sequence or rules if they are re-written and not branded; otherwise there would be only 1 boardgame with a CRT and 1 boardgame which ever used a hex map.....plus of course the entire PC industry :)

Hasbro's lawyers could probably stop me from getting a drivers license renewal if they put their mind to it, but I doubt they would bother with me, or with a niche-within-niche pc game with a passing resemblance to ASL and no overt copyright violation.

[Zulu1966]

Peter started working on this in '07 or '08 as computer ASL for himself.  I have the early builds of it from then and he had scans of ASL counters in there and the turn structure was ASL and he had a good many details from the ASL rulebook (but not all of them...what other game could include all of them??).  He had a really good start for making the vaulted "computer ASL".

At some point recently, this little homemade project drew the interests of the folks at Matrix.  Not sure who approached whom (Peter talked about it quite a bit on their forums as linked to above). 

Of course now if it goes from a homemade project to something commercial, you have licensing issues if you make it "ASL" (Hasbro).  So now the ASL counters are replaced by what you see in the screenshots.  Missing is any reference to ASL, including the stats on the counters and the charts and tables used to resolve combat.  You'll see the results of the combat but not how those results were obtained.  However, the sequence of play still follows ASL.  It looks like a duck.  It walks like a duck.  It's just hiding the duck's shit to fool you in to thinking that it isn't a duck.  I'm not convinced that Hasbro won't see it as a duck once people start saying "computer ASL!".

This is very moddable.  It's a single graphic file that has all the units and terrain pieces.  I've modded it by using VASL counters and yes, it looks very much like the duck. 

Game play is a bit quirky.  Ok, it's really quirky right now but manageable (talking about the UI).  The game does play like ASL but it's missing quite a bit out of the ASL rulebook.  It's missing some key concepts that even the Starter Kit rulebook has but is it a good substitute for ASL?  I'll let you all decide but give me the boardgame any day.  It's
not bad though if you want to play a 'pickup' game that is close to ASL.

OK, so that doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement. Is your view based on recent experience or as it was then ?

[GJK]

I'm a beta tester now.

"Tigers" is the closest thing to an AI enabled computer ASL game that there is because at its core, it is in a large part ASL (turn structure, defensive fire principles, etc).  I'm just disappointed in that with so much potential to actually be 'the' "ASL on the computer" game, the developer won't show the IFT, dice rolls, unit data (except in the manual) for fear of the wrath of Hasbro when everything else is ASL.  Doesn't make sense to me.

[Richie61]

I'm a beta tester now.

"Tigers" is the closest thing to an AI enabled computer ASL game that there is because at its core, it is in a large part ASL (turn structure, defensive fire principles, etc).  I'm just disappointed in that with so much potential to actually be 'the' "ASL on the computer" game, the developer won't show the IFT, dice rolls, unit data (except in the manual) for fear of the wrath of Hasbro when everything else is ASL.  Doesn't make sense to me.

Would be nice to see the calculations and how the game engine uses the data, but I do see were Peter is coming from. Most the HPS/ JT game engine is hidden too  ;)

[GJK]

Well this may sound a bit like a conspiracy theorist, but I think that's he's opting to hide that information for other reasons.  He has too much other "ASL" in this game for him to be worried about showing that he's also using the IFT to resolve combat.  I feel that he's hiding something in the combat calculations routine.  Maybe he just doesn't want to open himself up for scrutiny, or maybe he has a major bug in there that he doesn't want to deal with- we'll never know though because all of that is hidden from the end user.

[Richie61]

Yeah, I can agree with all of your comments too.  ;) My guess is that by hiding the data from public that he feels it keeps people from arguing about the numbers and how it works. It's one of them
deals where it's a no win at the end of the day. I would like to see the data and how it works too.  :)

Overall I like the title. I was a SL guy and have some ASL stuff, but never really got into ASL because life got busy (teenage). So at the end of the day TotH is a throw back to SL.
I only play squad based games on PC and tables, so it's Squad Battles and Tigers On The Hunt for me. I would like to see addition features added to make game play faster and easier,
but I am not a programer and don't understand how or what it takes to write codes.

I do like the AI so far  :)

[Gerry]

Well the AI is the really important part of course. Modders always do a good job with counters, etc.

In terms of the data the player still has to have some idea how their units match up against the others surely?  For grogs it is probably obvious which German vehicle is no match for a T-34. But I need some way of comparing...

I definitely hope that none of the scenarios involve 12 maps. I couldn't get my head around that. I am hoping he was just indicating the upper limit of the system. 

[Zulu1966]

I do like the idea of the "campaign" stuff mentioned though.

If its sort of like ASL will be good enough for me. Hope someone mods the terrain though - looks a bit bland to me.

Will definitely be buying though.

[Richie61]

Well the AI is the really important part of course. Modders always do a good job with counters, etc.

In terms of the data the player still has to have some idea how their units match up against the others surely?  For grogs it is probably obvious which German vehicle is no match for a T-34. But I need some way of comparing...

I definitely hope that none of the scenarios involve 12 maps. I couldn't get my head around that. I am hoping he was just indicating the upper limit of the system.

AI is great IMO. There with be a scenario design part of the game too. Most scenario are ASL size  ;)

[Gerry]

Well it is getting more interesting to me. Waiting is a killer.

Gerry