Combat Mission Shock Force Tactical Advice pls...

[jomni]

The reason I left them in the vehicles was two fold...

1. They had access to the heavy weapon on the Fennek if they did spot anything (without them in there, the weapon was useless as there was only the driver)
2. I presumed, being Recon, they would have better optical ability within the vehicle

But I'm no expert on the Fennek or Recon (as it happens - though you may have guessed).

Blind fire and destroy every suspected building.  Do you have firepower?

[Zulu1966]

You have four vehicles - they are only armed with a 12.7 mm - so not necessarily Armageddon for all they meet and certainly not worth risking your men in.

Use your teams as dismounts (arm them up with the panzerfausts) and scout on foot slowly. You can even dismount the drivers and use them as well which gives you 8 teams to move forward with.

You also have two apache helicopters so call them in on the two forts as they spot as well.

You have over two hours in this scenario which is plenty of time to take things careful. Also - your main force arrives in twenty minutes - you can always wait for them ... just get out the vehicles and move slowly if you do scout.

[mikeck]

The reason I left them in the vehicles was two fold...

1. They had access to the heavy weapon on the Fennek if they did spot anything (without them in there, the weapon was useless as there was only the driver)
2. I presumed, being Recon, they would have better optical ability within the vehicle

But I'm no expert on the Fennek or Recon (as it happens - though you may have guessed).

Blind fire and destroy every suspected building.  Do you have firepower?

Take off and nuke it from above...it's the only way to be sure

[bboyer66]

Remember my Company commander saying " We know we will have made contact with the enemy when the Bradleys start blowing up"

[panzerde]

Thanks for the feedback....I'll try and respond as best as I can recall

Cyrano - thanks. I kind of guessed what was the point of the vehicles if they have to get out - and I guessed they'd have all the kit on the vehicles as they were recon. I would say perhaps there is credit in what you say - about getting out and skulking around...but don't forget I said I had taken a unit out the Fennek and put them on top of a building...a building which had a great amount of view across the battlefield...they were on the roof of a building AND the building was on a hill

As mentioned above, recon vehicles - within the scope of the size of firefights depicted in this game aren't really for scouting, they're taxis designed to quickly move scout troops to concealed position from which to start a dismounted advance. Maybe, in the right situation, they provide a bit of long range fire support. As Apoc said, it isn't their job to duke it out, they're there to find the enemy and keep eyes on.

To that end, stay low as much as possible. In CMSF in particular but most CM games in general being on top of a building is not a good place to be. If you're going to try and spot from inside a building go to the floor below the roof and keep your guys prone. Leave them there for a few minutes/turns, and they will start spotting. While your scouts are creeping around, keep the vehicles well back and unspotted. If you don't, they're grease. If you put your scouts on top of a building, and particularly if they aren't hiding, you're going to take losses.

When you move your scout teams, don't move them over high ground, stick to the lowest terrain possible, move them in short bounds, and always end the move with them going hidden. Take your time, and split the teams up so that they bound past each other but stay within fire support range. Don't move too far each time but move them fast if in open terrain, ending with a hide command. Hunt works better in forest or built-up terrain.

Flow like water. Very slow water.

So - does anyone use their recon units with greater success? If so - how do you do it? Bear in mind I don't have any troops to walk ahead and attract fire. The first 20 minutes of this mission is to recon with the 4 Fenneks and 2 Recon squads split across the mobile units.

I can't emphasize this enough: go slowly. You have 20 turns to do this before you have reinforcements show up. Creep. Never move both scout teams at the same time and never move both into an exposed position at the same time. Your smoke is limited, but don't hesitate to use it to screen a particularly dangerous move if need be.

Never expose the vehicles. Think about it - the battlefield here is only a couple of klicks long and wide. You aren't doing operational recon here, this is up-close-and-personal tactical stuff. A Fennec with great optics sitting hull down at 5000 m or more is a great asset for observing enemy movement. That's not the situation in most CM scenarios, the time for that sort of recon has passed. The vehicles are very vulnerable at these ranges. RPGs will mess up a Fennec or other light recon vehicle at the less than 1K engagement ranges we're dealing with here. So, what you actually have are mobile VP producers for the opfor. Hide them!

[Cyrano]

Yep, it's all about slow-walking in this one.

This might, in fact, have been the scenario that finally had me shrieking at my CM:SF install to the effect:  "I thought you wanted me to DO something, for heaven's sake..."

[JudgeDredd]

Thanks all.

Jomni - I did not have any arty until 20 minutes in - when those 155 bad boys showed up, I took some buildings out in the fort...just in case. I do have a couple of Apache's which I used to take out the bunker I found.

Zulu1966 - the problem I have there is moving slowly is incredibly taxing on the troops and tires them out very, very quickly. Loading them with PFs just increases their fatigue

mickeck - best suggestion so far - however, no TacNukes available at present

bboyer66 - scary

panzerde - great advice and very much along with what other people suggest (get out move, on foot, scenario being unsuitable for vehicles) - I guess although the Fenneks may have great optics suitable for scouting, the crew inside maybe aren't going to hear any movement or opfor orders in a moving Fennek

Cyrano - exactly. My problem is always that also - lets get moving...what's with the slow crawl.


Anyway - update. I moved a couple of units across to the left of the map (near the building on the hill). One I left in the Fennek. They spotted a bunker and took it out (Apache and MG). The other unit up there I put on a roof and then after a while started hunting forward...they came across nothing.

The other two I moved across the right side of the map dismounted. Sure enough, they did come under fire at various locations. They were hunting though so went to ground and suppressed. I was able to call in the Apache's for a couple of sections.

My main force then came into play. They came across some wee nasties, but were able to deal with them. I did lose an APC which was sent forward to help a recon unit pinned by a rifle squad. I send it forward, fired smoke, and used Assault to get the troops into a building ready for the smoke to clear and destroy the enemy. I thought that had been taken care of when another APC came under fire from a building to the left. I rather stupidly moved the APC that had just dropped off the troops to the left, turning my back on (what I thought was the destroyed) rifle squad - AYG straight in the arse.

But so far so good. Though as I said - the recon teams are constantly on pause seemingly (automatically) because they are tired now from hunting forward a few hundred metres.

[smithcorp]

I think CM units can take a while to spot and resolve what they have spotted - it might require getting them into a position with overwatch / line of sight and then leaving them alone for a turn or two to do some spotting. Their ability to spot improves over time "Over time the unit may be further identified and will display a specific floating icon."

Been a while since I've played Shock Force, but I'm loving Black Sea.

smith

[JasonPratt]

Good tactical recon is tiring, so that makes sense.  O0

Previous comments support what I was thinking along the lines of (1) this type of mission is NOT the role of the Fennik; and so (2) the mission may have been mis-designed by including Fens as expensive VP generating battle taxis. More likely their in-game role in CMSF is to be ambushed during a convoy run. ;)

The report that one recce squad already divides between two Fens makes my head hurt, and lends credence to my suspicions. 

[RyanE]

Most designers don't know how to use Fennik-like vehicles.  They are built for longer range recon.  I used to build those missions for myself.  I used huge maps with a small recon element that used the "detect unit" victory condition.  I then loaded up an enemy recon screen that was supposed to stop them.  I used a high level HQ unit that was in a  building.  If the recon unit detected and IDed the HQ, they basically won.  There are a huge variety of ways to do this type of mission.

Sometimes I would set it up that a follow on heavy recon unit was on call if the initial recon unit got into trouble.  But that becomes a little too complex for my skill set.  I did give the recon unit gobs of air support and artillery to use if they got in trouble.

A big factor in designing these scenarios is setting initial intel level as a guide for the units and player.  In CMBS, I also use a lot of drones for recon.

[Zulu1966]

Thanks all.

Jomni - I did not have any arty until 20 minutes in - when those 155 bad boys showed up, I took some buildings out in the fort...just in case. I do have a couple of Apache's which I used to take out the bunker I found.

Zulu1966 - the problem I have there is moving slowly is incredibly taxing on the troops and tires them out very, very quickly. Loading them with PFs just increases their fatigue

mickeck - best suggestion so far - however, no TacNukes available at present

bboyer66 - scary

panzerde - great advice and very much along with what other people suggest (get out move, on foot, scenario being unsuitable for vehicles) - I guess although the Fenneks may have great optics suitable for scouting, the crew inside maybe aren't going to hear any movement or opfor orders in a moving Fennek

Cyrano - exactly. My problem is always that also - lets get moving...what's with the slow crawl.


Anyway - update. I moved a couple of units across to the left of the map (near the building on the hill). One I left in the Fennek. They spotted a bunker and took it out (Apache and MG). The other unit up there I put on a roof and then after a while started hunting forward...they came across nothing.

The other two I moved across the right side of the map dismounted. Sure enough, they did come under fire at various locations. They were hunting though so went to ground and suppressed. I was able to call in the Apache's for a couple of sections.

My main force then came into play. They came across some wee nasties, but were able to deal with them. I did lose an APC which was sent forward to help a recon unit pinned by a rifle squad. I send it forward, fired smoke, and used Assault to get the troops into a building ready for the smoke to clear and destroy the enemy. I thought that had been taken care of when another APC came under fire from a building to the left. I rather stupidly moved the APC that had just dropped off the troops to the left, turning my back on (what I thought was the destroyed) rifle squad - AYG straight in the arse.

But so far so good. Though as I said - the recon teams are constantly on pause seemingly (automatically) because they are tired now from hunting forward a few hundred metres.

I presume you are using the hunt command judge ? . Yes I think the fatigue it causes  is overdone. Generally I use it sparingly. Walk command is useful for moving slowly without fatigue. I know that leads to issues with the tac AI but I generally find it does an OK job if you start getting shot at.

[z1812]

Hello Judge Dred,

I too just started the Dutch campaign and have finished the first mission.

There are approaches that are covered and ways to sneak into position.

I lost one vehicle and a few scouts but was able to move recon to good locations and call in artillery.

In CMSF you have get in close to see some trenches and gullies. From a high view they are not apparent.

Moving your troops using the slow command will only tire them as that mode simulates crawling.

Give them a small fire arc so they will not fire and give their location away. Then use the move command until you are very close and finish with the slow order.

I can give you more information but I am hesitant as I do not want to spoil the scenario for you.