RAF target IS in Syria

Started by Boggit, September 07, 2015, 07:09:19 PM

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Boggit

September 07, 2015, 07:09:19 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34178998

My first reaction to this news was "Good".

The media, and some Labour politicians have since been at pains to cry about this decision, and to question the legality of the strike. They don't seem to care that these two were planning IS attacks on Britain. I just don't get what side they're on. Do they want to be reporting, and bemoaning IS atrocities instead? What a bunch of ar*eholes! It's hard for a terrorist to commit an atrocity if they're dead.

Neither of the IS pair were native Brits, but settlers. You'd think they'd be grateful the Brits let them live there, provided education, healthcare etc, but it seems not, preferring a sick culture where rape and murder are the norm.
The most shocking fact about war is that its victims and its instruments are individual human beings, and that these individual beings are condemned by the monstrous conventions of politics to murder or be murdered in quarrels not their own. Aldous Huxley

Foul Temptress! (Mirth replying to Gus) ;)

On a good day, our legislature has the prestige of a drunk urinating on a wall at 4am and getting most of it on his shoe. On a good day  ::) Steelgrave

It's kind of silly to investigate whether or not a Clinton is lying. That's sort of like investigating why the sky is blue. Banzai_Cat

Grimnirsson

#1
September 08, 2015, 02:13:56 PM
Problem is airstrikes won't stop the IS...either get boots on the ground, realize there's a real war to fight and do it, or continue with these PR maneuvers and nothing will change. These Muslim fanatics laugh at us...
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mirth

#2
September 08, 2015, 02:21:43 PM
Well, there's two less of them laughing at us.
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

Grimnirsson

#3
September 08, 2015, 02:27:27 PM
Yeah, great success - thousands still laugh...
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mirth

#4
September 08, 2015, 02:37:55 PM
Gotta start somewhere. Two less violent extremists in the world, plotting murder, is okay by me.
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

bob48

#5
September 08, 2015, 03:21:36 PM
They interviewed the farther of one of them; he said that he though it was justified, although he would have liked to see some evidence that they were plotting terror against the UK. To me, if they had joined ISIS then they are fair targets no matter what.

They also interviewed the farther of 2 more young men who had also gone out to join ISIS. He said that he expected that they would also be targeted and that it would be justified.

Whatever, as a dad, I can't help but feel sorry for these 2 men.
'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers'

'Clip those corners'

Recombobulate the discombobulators!

mirth

#6
September 08, 2015, 03:32:39 PM
Quote from: bob48 on September 08, 2015, 03:21:36 PM
To me, if they had joined ISIS then they are fair targets no matter what.

+1
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

Boggit

#7
September 08, 2015, 04:51:33 PM
Quote from: bob48 on September 08, 2015, 03:21:36 PM
Whatever, as a dad, I can't help but feel sorry for these 2 men.
Precisely because I am a dad, I have no sympathy for these 2 men. If they had been able to carry out attacks in the UK it could be members of my family - or yours, come to that - that could be hurt. I have NO sympathy for these basta*ds at all, as they're part of a savage cult that wouldn't think twice about  murdering us, or abusing own families given the opportunity.

What annoys me even more is that the parents of these creatures were given a home in the UK, and yet their venomous snake kids would join IS, which would destroy our society if they could. Khan apparently was tweeting about how he enjoyed participating in a beheading of some poor person. As a dad how can you feel sorry for them. They got what they deserved, the evil bastar*s. >:(

It's about time the government faces facts, and recognises IS as a de facto government in the middle east, then declares war on them for the murder of our citizens (a valid casus belli), then we can really go after them with the gloves off: as a belligerent, and not as a political "police action". I suspect our government is too spineless to do that.
The most shocking fact about war is that its victims and its instruments are individual human beings, and that these individual beings are condemned by the monstrous conventions of politics to murder or be murdered in quarrels not their own. Aldous Huxley

Foul Temptress! (Mirth replying to Gus) ;)

On a good day, our legislature has the prestige of a drunk urinating on a wall at 4am and getting most of it on his shoe. On a good day  ::) Steelgrave

It's kind of silly to investigate whether or not a Clinton is lying. That's sort of like investigating why the sky is blue. Banzai_Cat

bob48

#8
September 08, 2015, 04:54:13 PM
I have no sympathy at all for the men who joined ISIS - As a father, I was expressing sympathy for the fathers.
'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers'

'Clip those corners'

Recombobulate the discombobulators!

mirth

#9
September 08, 2015, 04:55:35 PM
Recognizing them as a state legitimizes them in a way that we may not want. Better to treat them as the terrorist organization that they are and go after them accordingly.
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

Boggit

#10
September 08, 2015, 06:14:55 PM
Quote from: bob48 on September 08, 2015, 04:54:13 PM
I have no sympathy at all for the men who joined ISIS - As a father, I was expressing sympathy for the fathers.
Bob, I get that - and I can understand how devastated one would feel as a parent. I do respect your humanity for what you said, and without any  sarcasm you are being very charitable and empathic.

However, I wonder how much their fathers actually knew, and whether there was any tacit approval of their sons actions. They didn't seem too surprised, so I also wonder what sort of value sets they encouraged as parents? It mainly seems to be one community (the elephant in the room) that always seems attracted to jihadi terrorism. I don't think that would be so commonplace if there was not tacit approval, if not actual encouragement. Am I being unreasonable in questioning that?
The most shocking fact about war is that its victims and its instruments are individual human beings, and that these individual beings are condemned by the monstrous conventions of politics to murder or be murdered in quarrels not their own. Aldous Huxley

Foul Temptress! (Mirth replying to Gus) ;)

On a good day, our legislature has the prestige of a drunk urinating on a wall at 4am and getting most of it on his shoe. On a good day  ::) Steelgrave

It's kind of silly to investigate whether or not a Clinton is lying. That's sort of like investigating why the sky is blue. Banzai_Cat

Boggit

#11
September 08, 2015, 06:25:51 PM
Quote from: mirth on September 08, 2015, 04:55:35 PM
Recognizing them as a state legitimizes them in a way that we may not want. Better to treat them as the terrorist organization that they are and go after them accordingly.
They are a terrorist organisation, but arguably represent much more than that. Treating them as a terrorist organisation creates jurisdiction problems on the wider international stage. De facto they are the regime ruling a state carved out by their forces. By recognising the reality that they are actually a state, you circumvent a lot of political difficulties in trying to get around those jurisdictional issues.

For example, the UK will fight IS in Iraq, at the invitation of the Iraqi government, but until now not in Syria, and even that is attracting a lot of criticism by the media and government opposition as to the legality of the strike. If you are at war with an enemy state then the gloves are off, and in many ways things are a lot more straightforward. Recognising IS as a state doesn't mean you like, or respect them. They are the Nazis of this century.
The most shocking fact about war is that its victims and its instruments are individual human beings, and that these individual beings are condemned by the monstrous conventions of politics to murder or be murdered in quarrels not their own. Aldous Huxley

Foul Temptress! (Mirth replying to Gus) ;)

On a good day, our legislature has the prestige of a drunk urinating on a wall at 4am and getting most of it on his shoe. On a good day  ::) Steelgrave

It's kind of silly to investigate whether or not a Clinton is lying. That's sort of like investigating why the sky is blue. Banzai_Cat

jejo68

#12
September 09, 2015, 12:35:34 AM
Quote from: bob48 on September 08, 2015, 04:54:13 PM
I have no sympathy at all for the men who joined ISIS - As a father, I was expressing sympathy for the fathers.

Their fathers are the one that sent them to muslim bible schools in the first place. So many muslims in Europe refuse to let their children integrate into society and instead send their children home to their old fatherland to be re educated. These same parents also send their children to muslim bible schools where it has been documentet on several occasion they teach the children to hate the country the currently live in. And the governments in europe dont do shit about it, because apparently they dont want their own children to be raised in a secure secular country.

bob48

#13
September 09, 2015, 05:09:06 AM
Quote from: Boggit on September 08, 2015, 06:14:55 PM
Quote from: bob48 on September 08, 2015, 04:54:13 PM
I have no sympathy at all for the men who joined ISIS - As a father, I was expressing sympathy for the fathers.
Bob, I get that - and I can understand how devastated one would feel as a parent. I do respect your humanity for what you said, and without any  sarcasm you are being very charitable and empathic.

However, I wonder how much their fathers actually knew, and whether there was any tacit approval of their sons actions. They didn't seem too surprised, so I also wonder what sort of value sets they encouraged as parents? It mainly seems to be one community (the elephant in the room) that always seems attracted to jihadi terrorism. I don't think that would be so commonplace if there was not tacit approval, if not actual encouragement. Am I being unreasonable in questioning that?

There is much truth in what you say. When I read the statements made by the fathers, my reaction was that of a non Muslim farther of two boys (or I should say, men, as they are now both in their thirties). Mayhap I should have considered the situation a little more before making the comment that I did.

To be clear, I will shed no tears over the demise, by any means, of anyone who is associated in any way with ISIS, or any other terror organisation - no matter what they choose to call themselves.
'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers'

'Clip those corners'

Recombobulate the discombobulators!

LongBlade

#14
September 09, 2015, 09:52:24 AM
I think Grimnirsson has a pretty good grasp of the situation.

While it's well and good to wipe a couple of punks out with drones, what is needed is boots on the ground.

Watched an interview with Lindsey Graham, a GOP contender. (If you asked "who?" you were justified. His poll numbers have him hovering around 1% support.)

His answer to the Syria/Daesh problem was interesting. He called for a force of 80,000 - 100,000 troops to go in there and fix things. Of which he believed the US could/would/should send 10,000. The rest would come from nations around Syria.

I'm not sure that's the proper mix for a winning ground force, but it is the first quasi-specific plan for ground action that I've heard articulated. So there is that.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
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