Starter Sets and Introducing RPGs

[Bison]

So I picked up the D&D 5 ed. starter set as a possible system to force introduce table top RPGing to the kids, but I must say I'm a little underwhelmed with the product that WotC put out.

Paizo put out an awesome product for Pathfinder.  There are some really nice hook items in there that can be carried on into an expanded game, especially the pawns.  I'm just not sure what WotC was thinking other than the name brand would carry the product.

Just a quick look at how FFG package the Star Wars beginners games and they seem to have followed the Pathfinder model.  If my LGS would have had Force and Destiny, I may have gotten that instead. 

I get that they want to move toward a "theater of the mind" style RPG and away from the tactical model, but man it's the little things like a map and pawns that can help improve the initial appeal of the game and are just nice game play aids.

[LongBlade]

D&D 3.5 was a fairly complex game. I liked it, but it was the kind of game where you needed someone who already understood it to teach it to you.

WotC overcorrected by creating 4.0. They tried to create an MMO like World of Warcraft for the boardgame crowd. They made a decent game, but it didn't feel like D&D.

Now they've overcorrected again with 5.0. It's a much more streamlined game - maybe too much so. But it has its merits. First, it's easy for n00bs to pick up. Second, Level 1 is user-friendly to all classes. Third, it's streamlined enough that a DM can have six players at a table and the game still plays smoothly. I've seen as many as eight players around a table, but IMHO that's a bit too big.

In effect 5.0 almost doubles the functional party size. It's quite popular at my FLGS. There are easily half a dozen different games played each week, though in some cases the same DM/Players play a couple of times a week. And there are a couple of retro-games going on, too. Still, 5.0 is the most popular.

[Bison]

Yeah.  I guess it really begs the question of the best way or system to use as an introduction to the hobby.  I'm mostly likely over analyzing this as I am wont to do with most things, but it seems like there are some factors that need to be considered.

Popularity is important if for nothing else than the availability of product.

Starter/Beginners Sets are IMHO important because it may be the first real impression that a new player gets of not only the game setting and system, but RPGing in general.
This has some inherent dangers.  A poor product can create a lasting bad impression.

System vs. Setting.  To me this is not necessarily as clear cut as it seems.   The setting seems like it should be the most important.  If you are interested in a setting that is fantasy or Star Wars, then it would follow that the best introduction would be through a setting that is already liked.  The rules can be a deterrent if they are poorly written, constructed, or hard to understand.  And with a setting like Star Wars for example there is so much lore that is prone to be nit picked at.   Fortunately for me there isn't a My Little Ponies RPG and my kids basis of Star Wars is limited to the Legos game if I chose to go that route.

It's an interesting dilemma I'd never really considered.  I love RPGing from the moment I learned about it and D&D was basically the only game in town so it was an easy step to make.  I know the kids will love RPGing, but the setting is a little more vague and availability of product is an issue.  But I'm in complete agreement that the 3.5 ruleset is not a beginner friendly system.

[bayonetbrant]

if you can find the big black box D&D basic set from '93-'94, that's the one to get.  the concepts are introduced through a series of programmed cards that roll out one concept at a time and walk you thru an initial adventure as you add each new concept.

[Bison]

^ cool concept.

Well I just stopped by the FLGS to see if they had any of the FFG Star Wars beginners sets.  The didn't have the one I really wanted Force and Destiny, but was able to pick up Age of Rebellion.  So I'll give that a once over this evening and decide whether to go with D&D or SW.  I'm a little nervous about the complexity of rules but more so for SW than D&D.  But I think SW might have more of an appeal.  I'm hoping to put one on the table Friday, since there is no school.

I'll be posting some impressions on SW for sure.

[Nefaro]

Just a quick look at how FFG package the Star Wars beginners games and they seem to have followed the Pathfinder model.  If my LGS would have had Force and Destiny, I may have gotten that instead. 

I get that they want to move toward a "theater of the mind" style RPG and away from the tactical model, but man it's the little things like a map and pawns that can help improve the initial appeal of the game and are just nice game play aids.

You can still do that with the more abstract style RPGs.

The creator of FFG's Star Wars RPG system has hit a sweet spot with his evolutionary & somewhat similar 2d20 system and their "Zones" style of tactical play.  It has less rigidity, doing away with counting squares or measuring distances, but is still able to use minis & maps/props if you want to.  Breaking it down to counting just a handful of zones, in order to calculate range, is just find and less fiddly. 

I'd liken it, somewhat, to a more sophisticated Assault On Doomrock style combat placement.  In same zone = Close range.  In same zone AND mini in contact = Melee range.  One zone away = Short.  Etc Etc.  Ends up more like a board game map.  Makes me want to shoehorn it's simplicity into others that still use hard numbers and long measurements.

I don't think either SW, or the 2d20 system (the Conan version being on KS right now), are the best RPG for absolute beginners on a cold start of their own.  But I like the mix of crunch & abstraction, especially of the 2d20 stuff I've seen in Mutant Chronicles 3rd Ed.  Looking forward to more settings using it; have always been a fence-sitter when it comes to RPGs in RE Howard's Conan setting though.

I do have Edge of the Empire and Force & Destiny core books.  Cool narrative style system, but I've not ventured far into them.  Mainly due to all the custom dice terminology.  I can memorize all the mechanics to them, but all the terms for the results & effects just don't want to stick in my gray matter.  Luckily that guy's newer system just uses plain 'ole d20 and d6 dice pools, yet still manages to retain some of the narrative style results.  O0

[Bison]

Just in the twenty minutes I spent reading the adventure, it really looks like a great way to introduce people to the system.  The encounters at broken down so that each one teaches a new mechanic.  But man it's weird to read a rule set that uses the non-traditional stat names and unconventional dice.  It should be cool.  The oldest is excited to give this whole RPG thing a whirl.  So now it's just reading both D&D and SW and deciding which one to start with.

[bayonetbrant]

So now it's just reading both D&D and SW and deciding which one to start with.

go with whatever he is interested in - it'll keep him more engaged :)

[Bison]

They want to fight Vader and meet Yoda so I already know the answer.  It's my own selfish nostalgia that wants to rock some D&D.

[Bison]

And it's a well done package of SW goodies.

[Nefaro]

And it's a well done package of SW goodies.

Embrace the Star Wars RPG goodness.

It really has some pretty cool stuff and the starter set is a fancy introduction.  Despite the need to learn the custom dice stuff, I think the mechanics inspire more cinematic narrative than the simplistic & rigid old D&D stuff.  And after the initiation it's not a big deal; the custom dice mechanics aren't too complicated.

The stats and skills aren't anything odd for an RPG, other than how they affect how many & what type of the special dice you roll to resolve them.  Probably just better off calling them "purple 8s" and "blue 6s" anyway.

[Bison]

Well I know that if it goes well I'm on the hook for Force and Destiny for sure, because you need to for any sort of meaningful lightsabers and force adventures.

[Bison]

OK.  I soloed through the introductory mission for SW Age of Rebellion and it was pretty sweet.  The dice were a little confusing at first but once I learned the symbols and how to build dice pools it was actually pretty straight forward.  There are some mechanics that will be challenging because unlike D&D dice rolls aren't just a pass/fail sort of deal.  You can fail a check, but have an advantage on the dice or succeed and have a disadvantage.  So this means the GM really needs to be on his feet to improvise and keep the story going.  So for example, I had to remove a restraining bolt from a droid as a part of the encounter.  The character succeeded in removing the restraining bolt, but had a 2 disadvantage results.  My answer was that the droid was so overjoyed at having the restraining bolt removed that it started to shout and jump around for joy.  How is this a disadvantage?  Well the characters assignment is to sneak into an Imperial base and capture the commander before he can escape.  This requires a high degree of stealth as to not alert the guards, so by jumping and shouting the droid might unintentionally alert a guard patrol in a near by hallway or room.  Pretty cool mechanic, but you really have to be on your feet and I can see this really creating the possibility for some cinematic moments in the game.   It's such a Star Wars mechanic.  I just thought of the trash compactor.  Han and Luke escape.  Yah!  But they are stuck in a trash compactor.  Boo!  Neat stuff.

The one other sort of odd mechanic that is a deviation from old school RPGs is XP.  There is no real standard method of determining them.  It's left up to the GM to determine how much and how to dole out.  But they do give you some suggestions like 10 XP for 3 encounters and a successful mission and few bonus ones for outstanding RPing.  Also you don't earn XP to level, but to purchase stats, skills, and proficiency points.  So you do not have a 10th level jedi, but a jedi with particular stats, skills, and proficiency that the player chose to advance by spending their XP on.  Interesting concept and basically insures that not every smuggler, soldier, or jedi is essentially the same.  Pretty cool, but will take some getting used too.

Of course the game is made by Fantasy Flights so that means great product, but a lot of extras costing $$.  I think if the family really digs it, then in the long run RPGing is a relatively cheap hobby.  The 3 core rule books and 2 other beginner games would be in the area of I'd think $150 off of amazon.  Damn that's depressing, but the possibility of developing a life long love of an awesome hobby would justify the cost.  And of course not everything would have to be purchased at once.  Although I would have to get Force and Destiny, because lightsabers and force powers.

[bayonetbrant]

Also you don't earn XP to level, but to purchase stats, skills, and proficiency points. 
{snip}
Interesting concept and basically insures that not every smuggler, soldier, or jedi is essentially the same.  Pretty cool, but will take some getting used too.

uh....  Runequest?  ;)

[Dammit Carl!]

GURPS had a boxed set back in the day (2nd edition, I think).  Amusingly enough, the Hercules and Xena boxed set wasn't half bad - the version of the d6 system used wasn't my cup of tea, but the contents of the box were nice.