Battlefleet Gothic

[RyanE]

I am always disappointed when space combat games stick with 2D.  The whole point of doing something on a PC versus a table top game is the PC gives you the ability to do things you can't do on a boardgame.

[Freyland]

I am always disappointed when space combat games stick with 2D.  The whole point of doing something on a PC versus a table top game is the PC gives you the ability to do things you can't do on a boardgame.

I always assumed that it was just so you couldn't spill your beer onto your expensive boardgame again, but apparently some people have more problems with that than others.

[Cyrano]

Do 3D on a tabletop and you get Attack Vector: Tactical which my high school nerd wanted to love and largely did, but my adult self realized I could never play regularly solo and could convince others to play with me even less regularity.

Watch the earlier video of the dude reviewing the game and hear the hard nerdgasms he has because THIS IS BATTLEFLEET GOTHIC ON THE MOTHER-LOVING COMPUTER! DOOD!!  Some folks were hacked that they took Space Hulk in a different direction.  Some people loved that Blood Bowl is by-and-large the boardgame.  Some people are still mad that "Empire in Arms" from Matrix, aside from being a bit of a UI disaster, is based on "Empire in Harms".

I absolutely get the desire to create this in a 3D space -- Homeworld Gothic or some such -- but I think the game can be fairly judged for what it is -- a digital iteration of the TTG.

Now, as to the turn-based thing, naval games (and this is nothing if not a naval game) on the PC have dallied back and forth between TBS and non-TBS, with the latter largely holding the field.  I suspect this is so first because you can and it's cool to many, but secondly because so much in naval combat is simultaneous.  This is, of course, true in all combat, but it seems particularly piquant in naval battles because there are so few combatants in most games.  It's therefore a real struggle to figure out how much one side should be able to do before the other side gets to respond.

Would I have liked them to have a go at it?  Yes, but, heck, Atlantic Fleet, I think, will be challenged to implement MP, in part for this reason and I'll be interested to see what solutions they choose.

We obviously can't fully judge the game based on an MP BETA, but I'm excited.  I think customizing ships and having 2v2 battles on-line will be good fun.

 

[JasonPratt]

Aside from feeling a bit overwhelmed at the RT clicking without any pause for orders at all -- I can still play Dawn of War without pausing if I have to, but it's getting more difficult for me all the time -- I love the game utterly. Once I'm more familiar with the control scheme, I'm sure I'll do better. I have no purchase regrets, just regrets that even with the super-slo mode I am getting old.

(It could be worse; I lost my ability to judge split second actions several years ago, quite abruptly, which instantly ruined my ability to judge or even really to teach fencing.  :'( Since teaching requires a lot of judge work on the students to help them understand why they would or wouldn't be scoring points.)

[RyanE]

Would you play an air combat game like in 2D?  Its the same thing to me.  Doing it in 2D makes it a reskinned naval warfare game.

[Cyrano]

I don't think there's any doubt that BG is ultimately a re-skinned naval game.

It's just a really cool freaking skin.  And I love naval games.

And I have, indeed, played 2D Air Combat games.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/6766/top-gun

Talk to me Goose...

Loved it to pieces and still have it, but I understand why the groggier air gamers have no use for it.

Even the little toy planes referenced in my sig are used in a game that has a highly-abstracted third dimension.

[RyanE]

I have played a number of air combat boardgames.  And everyone had some reference to altitude.  Usually not detailed, they had it.

[mirth]

Making a game like this 2D is hard to fathom. I was interested in it but not as a 2D game. There's really not any reason to have a table top space sim be 2D, it seems inexcusable in a computer game.

As RyanE pointed out, most table top air combat games are played in 3 dimensions.

[Cyrano]

I promise to stop here...honest...probably...but the TTG this IS is 2D.  It has always been a naval game in the depths of space and never seemed to care about the z-vector.  I played the dickens out of it that way and am happy to have it on the PC so I can play it with friends.

All games are courses for horses and, much as I would have rather it be a TBS, one is free to wish the game other, but I find the criticism that they adapted the game in the manner they found it odd.

Oh, and while everyone's experience of such things is subjective, altitude rules need to be well-implemented to be used.  I've been in quite a few games of "Wings of War" - especially large con game - where people find the altitude rules fiddly and ditch them;  "Richtoffen's War", never so.

[mirth]

Oh, and while everyone's experience of such things is subjective, altitude rules need to be well-implemented to be used.

Well, that can be said about pretty much any rules ;) And plenty of games do implement altitude rules well, so it's not like it can't be done with a little bit of effort.

Based on my experience, it's players (especially new players) who struggle with Z-axis games. As Spock noted in Wrath of Khan, "His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking". That's part of the fun I have games that use the z-axis. It's a bit of a mental challenge to think 3 dimensionally and plan moves accordingly.

Anyway I'm not much interested in 2D air/space combat games, so I'll take a pass on Battlefleet Gothic. I do love the look of it though.

[JasonPratt]

I was wondering when Spock's critique would be pulled out...  O0

Homeworld showed it can be done without overwhelming the player or the AI. If the design team was going to depart so strongly from the turn-based rules as to adapt them into a (not really pausable) real-time tactical game, they could have departed a little more strongly.


Edited to add: but I don't really care about the 2D. I'm just saying the rationale for keeping it 2D is a little broken.

[Nefaro]

id read theres no z axis - to recreate the table top feel

I often found the 3rd dimensional axis too fiddly to control a fleet of ships, in the games that had it.  I have memories of frustration, dealing with trying to get my ships into exact spots with the original Homeworld, and having to re-issue some commands multiple times in the attempt.  And the Homeworld series were an improvement over others!  Didn't think it added much to the gameplay for the extra effort.

If someone ever figured out how to make the UI easier to use with the Y-axis in real-time space combat games, then I suppose it would be fine.  But doing so with a mouse & keyboard in a click-fest RTS environment just makes me curse the interface.  I'm slow enough as it is, these days, without having to wrestle with that.

[LongBlade]

OK, so I'm watching the hook troll back and forth.

2D doesn't bother me. Wish it were turn-based but there's nothing I can do about that.

So...it comes down to this: is it fun?

I'm a fan of the WH40K universe. This is looking like something I'd enjoy.

You guys feeling addicted to it yet?

[panzerde]

I'm a fan of the WH40K universe. This is looking like something I'd enjoy.

You guys feeling addicted to it yet?

I don't know that I'm addicted to it yet, but it definitely is fun. It made me want to go read more WH40K novels and dig back into lore, which for me is a sign of pretty high interest.


It's definitely still beta. Like DOW II, I bet I ended up more into the SP campaign than MP, mostly because I just don't enjoy RTS MP (because I'm old and slow). But even skirmish is atmospheric and let's me ram gothic looking spaceships together and play at being an Imperial admiral, so I'm happy with the purchase.


One of the best games ever? Nah, but it's fun.

[LongBlade]

Well, that might be good enough for me. Thanks!